Crossbows As Guns [Archive] - Wizards Community

Crossbows As Guns [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jaime_Wolf
04-22-07, 10:49 PM Just for flavour, I want guns in my next campaign.

Instead of demanding different rules for guns, I'm thinking I can just use the crossbow stats. As for the whole "guns should do more damage than all other weapons" argument, which is more potentially deadly, being shot by a rudimentary weapon, or having a HUGE AXE HACK INTO YOUR BODY? (please note that if you feel the answer to be the bullet, don't bother writing a post saying so, it will be ignored)

For a defence against guns, I'm going to say that deflect arrows functions against bullets (instead of knocking the arrow out of the way, one simply uses one's reflexes to predict its path and dodge it instead).

Now the question, how do I handle six-shooters? Light and heavy crossbows make natural carbines and long rifles as they must be reloaded each round, but what about handguns? Rather than changing our concept of sixguns to one shot pistols, I'm thinking that it wouldn't be too unbalanced to allow hand crossbows (revolvers) to contain six shots and take as long as a heavy crossbow to reload.

Also, to make guns viable at later levels I'm wondering how I should handle iterative attacks. I'm seriously considering making a feat tree allowing fast reloading. Essentially just have rapid reload able to be taken twice to make rifles and revolvers reloadable (I'm thinking they should be split up though, rapid reload decreases all reload times, then one could take a feat decreasing time for rifles or a feat decreasing time for sixguns). I don't think this would be overpowering in the slightest, they'd essentially become better than average bows for a sacrifice of one or two feats.

So, any thoughts on how to make the hand crossbow/revolver work or on anything else?
Captain_Kobold
04-22-07, 11:22 PM You might want to decide on what sort of "tech level" you are looking at there: revolvers are relatively advanced compared to the types of weapon you have to ram the powder and ball down the barrel to load. Are these firearms cartridge-based or muzzle-loading?

For a revolver, treat it as a repeating crossbow with hand crossbow base instead of light crossbow.. Either let the six shot chamber be removed and replaced as the crossbow's magazine is, or say that each chamber has to be reloaded individually.

You might want to think about how the guns work a little. One of the big problems about letting guns with relatively cheap ammo into the system is that once your PCs can get hold of gunpowder, they will try to use it to solve many of their problems. That can get out of hand.
SolemnDusk
04-22-07, 11:49 PM Just make sure your party doesn't try to make a Powderhorn of Endless Gunpowder... Don't ask.
Masterfulks
04-22-07, 11:53 PM I think damagewise a gun isn't going to do more than a d8 or so.

Where their advantage should come into play is the extra attacks.

I could see something where for each shot you add a -2. So your first shot would be at your ranged attack bonus, then -2-4-6-8 on the followups.

That would account for the correction of the rise that results from rapid fire.

What kind of 6shooter, a single action or double action?

The single action variety generally take much longer to load as you have to pop out each empty case. You would then have to load each bullet seperately. That would take probably 4 or so rounds and that would be pretty damn fast. A double action with a swing out or open cylinder can be reloaded very quickly with a speed loader.
Nadaka
04-23-07, 12:40 AM Well... You could borrow some rules from d20 modern...

Or you could borrow some rules from me...

The short list...
Cartridge guns
Revolver 2d6 20/x2 1 hand 30ft
Lever Carbine 2d8 20/x2 2 hand 60ft
Bolt Rifle 2d10 20/x2 2 hand 90ft
*All cartridge guns can be fired 6 times between reloads. 1 cartridge can be reloaded as a move action, and 2 can be reloaded as a standard action.
*the Bolt action of the bolt action rifle requires either a move action or an iterative attack action to cycle. You may sacrifice your lowest iterative attack to cycle the weapon.

Note that these range increments assume a d20 modern style system where bows max out at 50 or 60ft RI.
Jaime_Wolf
04-23-07, 02:08 AM Meh, I'd rather stick with the crossbow rules.

I'm honestly thinking more and more that allowing six attacks and then a move action to reload would not be at all unreasonable (and we're talking double action revolvers here with swing-out cylinders though no speed loaders, think Stephen King gunslinger, just learn to load VERY fast, the learning represented by the feat).

I do however like your bolt action idea, frankly I hadn't even considered bolt action, but it makes sense. Rather than reloading the weapon, the limit is set by forcing you to cycle the weapon. That feels a lot better.

Actually, let me make sure I understand you right. By those rules, a rifle could be fired, cycled, fired again, and cycled again getting it ready for the next round, by a person with four iterative attacks? If I'm understanding this, I love it, it makes iterative attacks useful without making it seem as if we're using fast-firing weaponry (though the sixgun might be fairly fast).

Also, I think I'm dropping the carbine/light crossbow. Two guns are enough.

Further, I've never much liked the idea of magic guns. So that's probably out, magic amunition perhaps, no magic guns. All guns are masterwork too, obviously.

As for powder, I'll make sure to think of something else (I would rather kill myself than say that they run on magic) or some means of stopping its use as an explosive. If there's anything we don't need it's a 3.5 version of oil...
Squall255
04-23-07, 09:54 AM well, to explain your powder, i read an idea in the keepers of the flame series. In this series, the bad guys made powder by taking a substace (I forget what) and heating it up rediculously hot (w/magic) then they put like a "memory" spell or something that was triggered by water. they then allowed the substance to cool. basically, when the powder got wet, it instantly returned to steam (not particularly hot, but it expanded crazy fast).
Capt. Pixel
04-23-07, 03:30 PM In one game, we introduced blackpowder for the purpose of supporting primitive gun technology (musketry).

The blackpowder had an interesting side-effect, it rendered magic nearly useless in its vicinity. (I won't go into the specifics - decide those on your own)

These early weapons also had a tendency to misfire on a regular basis. (In one instance, my PC misfired the first barrel of a double-barrel shotgun and then twitched to fire - and the mis-fire the second barrel. Massive damage later, the PC was missing the right-half of his head. {he was dead, of course} After Ressurection, that PC had a persistent twitch and an occasional tendency to say "Did you hear that?!?". He also wore a half-face mask which covered a perfectly healed face. just 'cuz. :) )

The bullets did 1d6 damage. BUT, if you rolled a '6', you got to roll another 1d6 AND if you rolled another '6' - another 1d6. Ad Infinitum. (That was AD&D - you might consider giving a bullet 1d6 15-20/x3 damage instead)

And yes, grenades and limpet mines appeared soon there-after. These were most likely to blow up in your in face. Many a PC in that game was blown to smithereens by the dread fickle, evil blackpowder.

Eventually blackpowder was banned by the Magocracy from the melieu but the crippled PCs remain and fight on.

Good luck with your pistolas, senor. :cool:
Nadaka
04-23-07, 05:58 PM Yes, the bolt action allows for multiple shots to be fired with a high enough BAB.

with 20 BAB you would get one shot at +20, cycle, one shot at +15, cycle and drop the two lowest iterative attacks.

With 20 BAB and rapid shot, you could get 3 shots in the first round, 2 in the second, and keep alternating between the two in full round actions. (until he runs out of ammo at least).

Oh, I would also note that just like drawing a weapon, a person with BAB of 1 or more can cycle a bolt action weapon while making a move action.

Well, even if you prefer not to use all of my suggestions, I am glad I could help a bit.
Highlander3751
04-23-07, 08:36 PM DMG, page 145.
Jaime_Wolf
04-23-07, 11:26 PM Frankly, the DMG firearms don't do it for me at all.

I will never use back-firing rules. That's like saying to the players "Sure these are really interesting and I designed them so you would want to use them, but haha, I'm going to penalise any of you that do!"

Oh and thanks for clarifying that Nadaka.

I'm thinking that this is going to work. I'm further thinking that revolvers will just be repeating light crossbows with 30 ft range, I think that better preserves the idea of using them for firefights rather than for sniping. "Heavy crossbows" will be like repeating but will use Nadaka's bolt action rules, range will remain the same (I DO want these to be used for sniping).

I'll have to come up with something else for propellant because the guns will be fairly common (most people will have them rather than melee weapons, in fact I'm considering making melee weapons extremely rare).

Bear in mind that these don't have to be balanced against bows, there won't be any.
Nadaka
04-23-07, 11:57 PM I am not shure where who originally came up with the bolt action rate of fire, IIRC it was either Ranger REG or (PSI)Severedhead, but it was a good rule that I have brought into my games .
Devlonir
04-24-07, 07:27 AM Well.. I am thinking of allowing a form of guns, though magically propelled in my campaigns as well.

What i was thinking about was indeed making them like crossbows. A hand crossbow will be a single shot pistol type, the light crossbow will be a light firing rifle and the heavy crossbow will be a heavy rifle. All these weapons will have to be reloaded after every shot. I will also create guns with build in magazines. They will be exactly the same, except they have to be reloaded after 6 (for pistols) or 8 (for rifles) shots and can be used to your max number of iterative attacks if there are rounds left in there. Also, these guns will have their damage dice decreased by 1 size (d10=d8, d8=d6, d6=d4).

That was the best solution i could think of to create balanced guns compared to for example the longbows. Id make their crit range for all weapons 18-20/x2 for the sole purpose of giving someone a reason to take the lower damage magazine guns over the bows because they do the same damage.

Also i will create a group of magazine guns who do equal damage to the single shot ones. They will be exotic weapons, mostly because of the combination of heavier ammo and bigger magic blasts to propel them needed and the recoil that will create, people will need training to be able to use all their attacks to the maximum effect without missing all shots after the second. I will also rule that each shot after the first made by an untrained user will get a cumilative -4 to hit instead of using the normal rules for non-proficient use.

Remember, these guns are created and propelled magically and not through chemistry. I am thinking of using these guns in my running Eberron campaign, being used by House Cannith (but of course, some illegal groups have been able to get their hands on it as well). Because they are easy to (learn how to) use and maintain (thanks to again magic) the basic guns and basic magazine guns will be simple weapons.

Some feedback please.
Jaime_Wolf
04-24-07, 01:50 PM Why make magazine versions of crossbows when they already exist?

Look up repeating crossbows, they work almost precisely like you want, but, to be frank, your versions have gimped them horribly.
Fireclave
04-24-07, 04:41 PM Well.. I am thinking of allowing a form of guns, though magically propelled in my campaigns as well.

I'm actually doing the exact same thing right now. I'm pretty much stealing the magnetic dart idea from here (http://www.fur.com/~ollie/weapons.html), but updating them to 3.5, powering them with alchemical substances and/or magic (I have both varities), and balancing them out against the light crossbow. Once I work out the trouble spots and gp costs, I'll post them and the accompaning Eldritch Gunner prestige class. Hopefully, it should be done in the next few days.
Devlonir
04-25-07, 07:18 AM Why make magazine versions of crossbows when they already exist?

Look up repeating crossbows, they work almost precisely like you want, but, to be frank, your versions have gimped them horribly.

Repeating crossbows being.... exotic weapons.

I created a non-exotic version of the repeating crossbow by lowering their damage dice and actually making them simple weapons. This isn't gimping, this is a balance issue. Bringing guns into a campaign can be very game breaking, so it is best to make them on-par with current weapons, and not better than any current weapons. Reducing damage dice while giving them the special ability of a repeating crossbow is a good way to make an exotic weapon non-exotic.

It isnt about making weapons better than current crossbows, its about increasing the fluff of a weapon and giving it an extra option (the lower damage, repeating version) Also, the hand crossbow is normaly an exotic weapon, while the pistol isn't. So that is actually already changing the balance of the game (Seeing how a one handed ranged weapon can be used for ranged, TWF sneak attacks for example) Everyone will probably have a magazine pistol as an off weapon instead of a dagger seeing how it is more versatile.
John Q. Mayhem
04-25-07, 08:12 AM I've been a fan of the crossbow stats for guns idea for a while, for simplicity's sake. Simplicity is good!
Jaime_Wolf
04-25-07, 01:12 PM Repeating crossbows being.... exotic weapons.
It isnt about making weapons better than current crossbows
Actually, part of it is. Crossbows are incredibly inferior ranged weapons in D&D except in extremely specific cirumstances. As for balancing them, revolvers will be simple, rifles martial. The rifle must be cycled, so it's balanced with that, and the revolver only has 30 ft range (as mentioned above).

(Seeing how a one handed ranged weapon can be used for ranged, TWF sneak attacks for example) Everyone will probably have a magazine pistol as an off weapon instead of a dagger seeing how it is more versatile.
Up a little I noted that I'll be using light and heavy repeating crossbows for this, not hand crossbows. The penalties for wielding heavy or light crossbows in one hand combined with the penalties for dual wielding (yes, they do stack in this case) make it a very, very bad idea without specific training.
Devlonir
04-25-07, 03:57 PM Well, I guess that does balance it out..

But i do not feel crossbows are inferior. Their damage dice are superior to a bow of it's size (although the reloading does suck and you can never get any str added to your attacks) and they have a 19-20/x2 crit range, which can be quite nice when you buy a keen crossbow for those situations where you have a chance to put out one ranged attack before someone closes in.

Actually, I feel my 'fix' of making them guns will make it so that my players will actually use them, where they hardly ever use crossbows. making them simple means that almost every party member can use one as well. The magical guns I have in mind are so simple to use that i simply cannot make them martial or exotic.

But seeing the kind of weapons you want to introduce, I actually agree with what you want to do now and i'd say.. go for it! Considering what I want my guns to be (nicer replacements for the crossbow without being a lot stronger) what are your opinions on that?
Jaime_Wolf
04-25-07, 05:16 PM Balance-wise, it seems to me that changing the weapon proficiency type rarely matters. Those who don't get decent proficiencies usually don't need weapons (casters, for instance, shouldn't run out of spells once they reach lower-mid levels). Those who would need the proficiencies (those who regularly use weapons) already have them.

As for the relative power, they're just about useless. A spellcaster would do much better with a spell and a fighter would do better with a melee weapon or, if he really wanted to use ranged attacks, a bow (just look at the best ranged feats, almost all bow exclusive). And then there's reload times.

If you do persist in believing that the crossbow is perfect as-is, then your system would work quite nicely, though I have a specific place in my heart where I hate magic-powered guns, but that's just flavour.
Nadaka
04-25-07, 11:57 PM technically keen is a melee only enchantment...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jaime_Wolf 04-22-07, 10:49 PM	Just for flavour, I want guns in my next campaign. Instead of demanding different rules for guns, I'm thinking I can just use the crossbow stats. As for the whole "guns should do more damage than all other weapons" argument, which is more potentially deadly, being shot by a rudimentary weapon, or having a HUGE AXE HACK INTO YOUR BODY? (please note that if you feel the answer to be the bullet, don't bother writing a post saying so, it will be ignored) For a defence against guns, I'm going to say that deflect arrows functions against bullets (instead of knocking the arrow out of the way, one simply uses one's reflexes to predict its path and dodge it instead). Now the question, how do I handle six-shooters? Light and heavy crossbows make natural carbines and long rifles as they must be reloaded each round, but what about handguns? Rather than changing our concept of sixguns to one shot pistols, I'm thinking that it wouldn't be too unbalanced to allow hand crossbows (revolvers) to contain six shots and take as long as a heavy crossbow to reload. Also, to make guns viable at later levels I'm wondering how I should handle iterative attacks. I'm seriously considering making a feat tree allowing fast reloading. Essentially just have rapid reload able to be taken twice to make rifles and revolvers reloadable (I'm thinking they should be split up though, rapid reload decreases all reload times, then one could take a feat decreasing time for rifles or a feat decreasing time for sixguns). I don't think this would be overpowering in the slightest, they'd essentially become better than average bows for a sacrifice of one or two feats. So, any thoughts on how to make the hand crossbow/revolver work or on anything else?
Captain_Kobold 04-22-07, 11:22 PM	You might want to decide on what sort of "tech level" you are looking at there: revolvers are relatively advanced compared to the types of weapon you have to ram the powder and ball down the barrel to load. Are these firearms cartridge-based or muzzle-loading? For a revolver, treat it as a repeating crossbow with hand crossbow base instead of light crossbow.. Either let the six shot chamber be removed and replaced as the crossbow's magazine is, or say that each chamber has to be reloaded individually. You might want to think about how the guns work a little. One of the big problems about letting guns with relatively cheap ammo into the system is that once your PCs can get hold of gunpowder, they will try to use it to solve many of their problems. That can get out of hand.
SolemnDusk 04-22-07, 11:49 PM	Just make sure your party doesn't try to make a Powderhorn of Endless Gunpowder... Don't ask.
Masterfulks 04-22-07, 11:53 PM	I think damagewise a gun isn't going to do more than a d8 or so. Where their advantage should come into play is the extra attacks. I could see something where for each shot you add a -2. So your first shot would be at your ranged attack bonus, then -2-4-6-8 on the followups. That would account for the correction of the rise that results from rapid fire. What kind of 6shooter, a single action or double action? The single action variety generally take much longer to load as you have to pop out each empty case. You would then have to load each bullet seperately. That would take probably 4 or so rounds and that would be pretty damn fast. A double action with a swing out or open cylinder can be reloaded very quickly with a speed loader.
Nadaka 04-23-07, 12:40 AM	Well... You could borrow some rules from d20 modern... Or you could borrow some rules from me... The short list... Cartridge guns Revolver 2d6 20/x2 1 hand 30ft Lever Carbine 2d8 20/x2 2 hand 60ft Bolt Rifle 2d10 20/x2 2 hand 90ft All cartridge guns can be fired 6 times between reloads. 1 cartridge can be reloaded as a move action, and 2 can be reloaded as a standard action. the Bolt action of the bolt action rifle requires either a move action or an iterative attack action to cycle. You may sacrifice your lowest iterative attack to cycle the weapon. Note that these range increments assume a d20 modern style system where bows max out at 50 or 60ft RI.
Jaime_Wolf 04-23-07, 02:08 AM	Meh, I'd rather stick with the crossbow rules. I'm honestly thinking more and more that allowing six attacks and then a move action to reload would not be at all unreasonable (and we're talking double action revolvers here with swing-out cylinders though no speed loaders, think Stephen King gunslinger, just learn to load VERY fast, the learning represented by the feat). I do however like your bolt action idea, frankly I hadn't even considered bolt action, but it makes sense. Rather than reloading the weapon, the limit is set by forcing you to cycle the weapon. That feels a lot better. Actually, let me make sure I understand you right. By those rules, a rifle could be fired, cycled, fired again, and cycled again getting it ready for the next round, by a person with four iterative attacks? If I'm understanding this, I love it, it makes iterative attacks useful without making it seem as if we're using fast-firing weaponry (though the sixgun might be fairly fast). Also, I think I'm dropping the carbine/light crossbow. Two guns are enough. Further, I've never much liked the idea of magic guns. So that's probably out, magic amunition perhaps, no magic guns. All guns are masterwork too, obviously. As for powder, I'll make sure to think of something else (I would rather kill myself than say that they run on magic) or some means of stopping its use as an explosive. If there's anything we don't need it's a 3.5 version of oil...
Squall255 04-23-07, 09:54 AM	well, to explain your powder, i read an idea in the keepers of the flame series. In this series, the bad guys made powder by taking a substace (I forget what) and heating it up rediculously hot (w/magic) then they put like a "memory" spell or something that was triggered by water. they then allowed the substance to cool. basically, when the powder got wet, it instantly returned to steam (not particularly hot, but it expanded crazy fast).
Capt. Pixel 04-23-07, 03:30 PM	In one game, we introduced blackpowder for the purpose of supporting primitive gun technology (musketry). The blackpowder had an interesting side-effect, it rendered magic nearly useless in its vicinity. (I won't go into the specifics - decide those on your own) These early weapons also had a tendency to misfire on a regular basis. (In one instance, my PC misfired the first barrel of a double-barrel shotgun and then twitched to fire - and the mis-fire the second barrel. Massive damage later, the PC was missing the right-half of his head. {he was dead, of course} After Ressurection, that PC had a persistent twitch and an occasional tendency to say "Did you hear that?!?". He also wore a half-face mask which covered a perfectly healed face. just 'cuz. :) ) The bullets did 1d6 damage. BUT, if you rolled a '6', you got to roll another 1d6 AND if you rolled another '6' - another 1d6. Ad Infinitum. (That was AD&D - you might consider giving a bullet 1d6 15-20/x3 damage instead) And yes, grenades and limpet mines appeared soon there-after. These were most likely to blow up in your in face. Many a PC in that game was blown to smithereens by the dread fickle, evil blackpowder. Eventually blackpowder was banned by the Magocracy from the melieu but the crippled PCs remain and fight on. Good luck with your pistolas, senor. :cool:
Nadaka 04-23-07, 05:58 PM	Yes, the bolt action allows for multiple shots to be fired with a high enough BAB. with 20 BAB you would get one shot at +20, cycle, one shot at +15, cycle and drop the two lowest iterative attacks. With 20 BAB and rapid shot, you could get 3 shots in the first round, 2 in the second, and keep alternating between the two in full round actions. (until he runs out of ammo at least). Oh, I would also note that just like drawing a weapon, a person with BAB of 1 or more can cycle a bolt action weapon while making a move action. Well, even if you prefer not to use all of my suggestions, I am glad I could help a bit.
Highlander3751 04-23-07, 08:36 PM	DMG, page 145.
Jaime_Wolf 04-23-07, 11:26 PM	Frankly, the DMG firearms don't do it for me at all. I will never use back-firing rules. That's like saying to the players "Sure these are really interesting and I designed them so you would want to use them, but haha, I'm going to penalise any of you that do!" Oh and thanks for clarifying that Nadaka. I'm thinking that this is going to work. I'm further thinking that revolvers will just be repeating light crossbows with 30 ft range, I think that better preserves the idea of using them for firefights rather than for sniping. "Heavy crossbows" will be like repeating but will use Nadaka's bolt action rules, range will remain the same (I DO want these to be used for sniping). I'll have to come up with something else for propellant because the guns will be fairly common (most people will have them rather than melee weapons, in fact I'm considering making melee weapons extremely rare). Bear in mind that these don't have to be balanced against bows, there won't be any.
Nadaka 04-23-07, 11:57 PM	I am not shure where who originally came up with the bolt action rate of fire, IIRC it was either Ranger REG or (PSI)Severedhead, but it was a good rule that I have brought into my games .
Devlonir 04-24-07, 07:27 AM	Well.. I am thinking of allowing a form of guns, though magically propelled in my campaigns as well. What i was thinking about was indeed making them like crossbows. A hand crossbow will be a single shot pistol type, the light crossbow will be a light firing rifle and the heavy crossbow will be a heavy rifle. All these weapons will have to be reloaded after every shot. I will also create guns with build in magazines. They will be exactly the same, except they have to be reloaded after 6 (for pistols) or 8 (for rifles) shots and can be used to your max number of iterative attacks if there are rounds left in there. Also, these guns will have their damage dice decreased by 1 size (d10=d8, d8=d6, d6=d4). That was the best solution i could think of to create balanced guns compared to for example the longbows. Id make their crit range for all weapons 18-20/x2 for the sole purpose of giving someone a reason to take the lower damage magazine guns over the bows because they do the same damage. Also i will create a group of magazine guns who do equal damage to the single shot ones. They will be exotic weapons, mostly because of the combination of heavier ammo and bigger magic blasts to propel them needed and the recoil that will create, people will need training to be able to use all their attacks to the maximum effect without missing all shots after the second. I will also rule that each shot after the first made by an untrained user will get a cumilative -4 to hit instead of using the normal rules for non-proficient use. Remember, these guns are created and propelled magically and not through chemistry. I am thinking of using these guns in my running Eberron campaign, being used by House Cannith (but of course, some illegal groups have been able to get their hands on it as well). Because they are easy to (learn how to) use and maintain (thanks to again magic) the basic guns and basic magazine guns will be simple weapons. Some feedback please.
Jaime_Wolf 04-24-07, 01:50 PM	Why make magazine versions of crossbows when they already exist? Look up repeating crossbows, they work almost precisely like you want, but, to be frank, your versions have gimped them horribly.
Fireclave 04-24-07, 04:41 PM	Well.. I am thinking of allowing a form of guns, though magically propelled in my campaigns as well. I'm actually doing the exact same thing right now. I'm pretty much stealing the magnetic dart idea from here (http://www.fur.com/~ollie/weapons.html), but updating them to 3.5, powering them with alchemical substances and/or magic (I have both varities), and balancing them out against the light crossbow. Once I work out the trouble spots and gp costs, I'll post them and the accompaning Eldritch Gunner prestige class. Hopefully, it should be done in the next few days.
Devlonir 04-25-07, 07:18 AM	Why make magazine versions of crossbows when they already exist? Look up repeating crossbows, they work almost precisely like you want, but, to be frank, your versions have gimped them horribly. Repeating crossbows being.... exotic weapons. I created a non-exotic version of the repeating crossbow by lowering their damage dice and actually making them simple weapons. This isn't gimping, this is a balance issue. Bringing guns into a campaign can be very game breaking, so it is best to make them on-par with current weapons, and not better than any current weapons. Reducing damage dice while giving them the special ability of a repeating crossbow is a good way to make an exotic weapon non-exotic. It isnt about making weapons better than current crossbows, its about increasing the fluff of a weapon and giving it an extra option (the lower damage, repeating version) Also, the hand crossbow is normaly an exotic weapon, while the pistol isn't. So that is actually already changing the balance of the game (Seeing how a one handed ranged weapon can be used for ranged, TWF sneak attacks for example) Everyone will probably have a magazine pistol as an off weapon instead of a dagger seeing how it is more versatile.
John Q. Mayhem 04-25-07, 08:12 AM	I've been a fan of the crossbow stats for guns idea for a while, for simplicity's sake. Simplicity is good!
Jaime_Wolf 04-25-07, 01:12 PM	Repeating crossbows being.... exotic weapons. It isnt about making weapons better than current crossbows Actually, part of it is. Crossbows are incredibly inferior ranged weapons in D&D except in extremely specific cirumstances. As for balancing them, revolvers will be simple, rifles martial. The rifle must be cycled, so it's balanced with that, and the revolver only has 30 ft range (as mentioned above). (Seeing how a one handed ranged weapon can be used for ranged, TWF sneak attacks for example) Everyone will probably have a magazine pistol as an off weapon instead of a dagger seeing how it is more versatile. Up a little I noted that I'll be using light and heavy repeating crossbows for this, not hand crossbows. The penalties for wielding heavy or light crossbows in one hand combined with the penalties for dual wielding (yes, they do stack in this case) make it a very, very bad idea without specific training.
Devlonir 04-25-07, 03:57 PM	Well, I guess that does balance it out.. But i do not feel crossbows are inferior. Their damage dice are superior to a bow of it's size (although the reloading does suck and you can never get any str added to your attacks) and they have a 19-20/x2 crit range, which can be quite nice when you buy a keen crossbow for those situations where you have a chance to put out one ranged attack before someone closes in. Actually, I feel my 'fix' of making them guns will make it so that my players will actually use them, where they hardly ever use crossbows. making them simple means that almost every party member can use one as well. The magical guns I have in mind are so simple to use that i simply cannot make them martial or exotic. But seeing the kind of weapons you want to introduce, I actually agree with what you want to do now and i'd say.. go for it! Considering what I want my guns to be (nicer replacements for the crossbow without being a lot stronger) what are your opinions on that?
Jaime_Wolf 04-25-07, 05:16 PM	Balance-wise, it seems to me that changing the weapon proficiency type rarely matters. Those who don't get decent proficiencies usually don't need weapons (casters, for instance, shouldn't run out of spells once they reach lower-mid levels). Those who would need the proficiencies (those who regularly use weapons) already have them. As for the relative power, they're just about useless. A spellcaster would do much better with a spell and a fighter would do better with a melee weapon or, if he really wanted to use ranged attacks, a bow (just look at the best ranged feats, almost all bow exclusive). And then there's reload times. If you do persist in believing that the crossbow is perfect as-is, then your system would work quite nicely, though I have a specific place in my heart where I hate magic-powered guns, but that's just flavour.
Nadaka 04-25-07, 11:57 PM	technically keen is a melee only enchantment...