Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Venator 12-23-06, 12:25 PM	I'm planning on making a Melee Ranger/Fighter for my next Character. I was thinking of giving him a Light Crossbow for his ranged weapon (for the once in a blue moon terrain calls for ranged combat) and for sheer style points because no one gives crossbows any love. Other than being able to fire in melee combat without provoking an AOO I dont see any positive sides to using a crossbow over a bow. I think the way the game is set up at this point Bows are simply WAY better. (Also note that most enemies tend to carry arrows and not bolts from my exp anyway) Correct me if I am mistaken, I'd like to here the pro's to using a crossbow over a bow. (if there are any besides the one stated above) Just so people have them here, my stats are as follows (note that I'm strong and a Mighty Composite short/longbow would net more damage) Human, Ranger (1) Str- 18+4 Dex- 16+3 Con- 17+3 Int- 13+1 Wis- 14+2 Cha- 12+1 (I know they are insane, i rolled them when the DM was present :D ) Have at it people. ~Venator
Drucilla_Rocks_my_Socks 12-23-06, 12:53 PM	For low strength characters you don't get your strength penalty applied to them like it's aplied to bows (not aplicable for your 18 strength ranger). I think there are ways to get sneak attack up to 60' with a crossbow using some special feats and equipment) which isn't very helpful for rangers. Oh, and they're simple weapons, which is good for people without martial weapon proficiency (again, not aplicable to rangers).
Ephraim 12-23-06, 12:54 PM	I think the big one that you missed is that crossbows are classified as simple weapons. A light crossbow uses the same damage dice as a longbow so if your character is not proficient with martial weapons and can reasonably expect to avoid situations where attacks of opportunity would be relevant, then a light crossbow is a pretty good choice! I suppose that the heavy crossbow's only real advantage (considering it takes a full round action to reload it) is that it uses a d10 for damage. If that makes the difference between a one-shot-kill being possible or not, you might opt to use a heavy crossbow. Crossbows also have some situational advantages. The higher range increment could be particularly relevant if you're trying to ambush somebody or if you're just looking for a strong initial volley. Heavy crossbows could be a really interesting NPC weapon. Have a group of NPC warriors at a range of 120 feet fire heavy crossbows, discard the crossbow, and then draw melee weapons to engage. As a tactical weapon, it would be fun to use against the party.
Shiikeras 12-23-06, 01:08 PM	I seem to recall something called a Kobold Double Crossbow, where you take a full-round to load it, then another one to fire it twice. If you follow the shoot and engage tactic with a heavy one, you could really do some damage. Now, it does take up a feat, but fighters get lots of those (You said ranger/fighter). Plus, if you get a flaming/shocking/frost/whatever, you could be doing about 10-20 damage on your first strike. That's worth one feat.
Plothos 12-23-06, 01:34 PM	Crossbows are meant to be inferior. That is, D&D seems to have taken lesson from things like the battle of Crecy into account in its design. They have their niche, captured fairly well by the fact that they are simple weapons and don't give a strength penalty, in that crossbows were far easier to field than longbows, the latter requiring lengthy training/conditioning on the part of the soldier in question to utilize effectively. It simply was far less work to field a unit of crossbowmen than longbowmen. In fact, in most places it was impossible to field skilled longbowmen. The English could do it because their culture was such that lots and lots of young men used longbows all the time at home. As such, they grew up with the skills and powerful backs necessary to make good longbowmen. Where no such culture existed, the crossbow was the weapon of choice. Anyway, the heavy crossbows that could fire with great power and could be reloaded behind a wall or pavise during a seige were the optimal choice for many situations. So they don't get much love in D&D, but that's probably for fairly sound reasons. (I'm at best an amatuer historian, so if I said something in the above that someone feels is incorrect, I'll defer. This is just what I have read in a couple places.) That said, one benefit of the crossbow is that you can fire it while prone. For extended ranged fights, that's awesome. You get a +4 to your AC and take no penalty to hit. Yay!
draconic_swine 12-23-06, 03:22 PM	I'm repeating what others have said, but crossbows require only simple weapon proficiency, compared to the martial weapon proficiency required for bows. Simply put, simple weapons tend to be inferior to martial weapons. Crossbows are ideal for classes without many (or any) martial proficiencies. Also, they're great for low-Strength characters, and a must for characters with negative Strength modifiers. Other than being able to fire in melee combat without provoking an AOO I dont see any positive sides to using a crossbow over a bow. Note that you can't fire a crossobw in melee without provoking an AoO. They provoke just like any other ranged weapon.
UndeadViking 12-23-06, 08:24 PM	I like the crossbow for style reasons. It's just a cool looking weapon. It may not be as nice as a bow, but you can still be good with it if you take the right feats. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload are all must haves, IMO, though Rapid Reload may not be needed if you can get your hands on a crossbow of speed. Rapid Shot is good, too. There's also a Crossbow Sniper feat in one of the "Complete" books that's kind of cool. Throw in a level of rogue for some sneak attack damage every now and then. Not sure if a scout would work well with a crossbow, since you have to move to get skirmish damage.
draconic_swine 12-24-06, 12:33 AM	Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload are all must haves, IMO, though Rapid Reload may not be needed if you can get your hands on a crossbow of speed. Adding speed to a crossbow wouldn't be any help to a crossbow unless you have Rapid Reload because you couldn't take a full attack action to attack with the crossbow without the ability to load multiple bolts in a turn.
dengarbountyhunter 12-24-06, 12:51 AM	Well... planning to use a suboptimal weapon and get other benefits in compensation, finally making you better than you would be with a bow, all the while having a reputation for roleplaying? People do this with blind characters ("I'm blind so I should have blindsense"?) already, you know?:P Okay, I'm just kidding. Seriously, I've always felt too that crossbows didn't get much chance to shine (despite being simple weapons, that's not a factor for PCs). But the weapons that are REALLY left out are slings. What a nice weapon, yet nobody takes it because there's no sling prestige class, no sling feats, no advantages over anything with it... Yup, pretty sad.
morbain 12-24-06, 01:34 AM	I am making a ranged character and I am going with composite longbow so I can add my str bonus to my damage. If you had one you could have a +4 bonus on damage!!:eek: lvl 1 ranger lvl 4 fighter Bariaur from the planar handbook DM giving free level adjustement haven't finalized stats yet and still deciding on a melee weapon.
SkullsForKhorne 12-24-06, 01:46 AM	I'm repeating what others have said, but crossbows require only simple weapon proficiency, compared to the martial weapon proficiency required for bows. Simply put, simple weapons tend to be inferior to martial weapons. Crossbows are ideal for classes without many (or any) martial proficiencies. Also, they're great for low-Strength characters, and a must for characters with negative Strength modifiers. Note that you can't fire a crossobw in melee without provoking an AoO. They provoke just like any other ranged weapon. Nail = on head. If I were you, I'd stick to the typical longbow ranger methods. Longbows are the way to go, just ask the Welsh. Which brings up an aside, does anyone else think it's just a tad irksome that the RAW Arcane Archer requires arcane spellcasting as opposed to divine (or at least inclusive), NAME aside? It pretty much forces rangers to waste a level on sorceror/wizard/insertarcaneclasshere in order to take up the prestige class. A personal annoyance of mine.
Spellfire_junkie 12-24-06, 02:02 AM	I would happen to agree that the sling is left in the dust of all other ranged weapons when it comes to upgrading through feats and PrC's and that this should be changed somehow. However, there is one benefit that is generally overlooked which is that a sling grants the weilder a boost to damage due to strength right out the gate, with no money down! Granted that very few characters out there would really benefit from this and not be proficient with martial weapons as well, but it happens occasionally. As previously mentioned, the big benefit to crossbows is being able to shoot while prone. Also, don't forget about one-handed firing! I would pay really good money to see someone fire a bow one-handed, without it being mounted in some fashion.
WolfHati 12-24-06, 03:35 AM	The other advantage of crossbows is that they can be ired and reloaded while prone. So if you get tripped, need to take advantage of sparse cover and/or are fighting a ranged battle, it helps a whole lot on the defensive side. On the otherhand, a longbow is going to dish out almost twice the damage and you won't need the rapid reload feat. So... yeah. They should really make mighty an option for crossbows too, seeing as they are still fundementally hand drawn weapons, you just get to use gear ratios to your advantage. Crossbows always struck me as something the big burly, door kicking in guy would be more prone to use, as opposed to a longbow.
Ephraim 12-24-06, 03:44 AM	It really wouldn't make any sense to make a crossbow mighty. As you said, you get the benefit of gear ratios and that is reflected in crossbows using larger damage dice. Given the dimensions of a crossbow, I doubt that you could store sufficient energy in the crossbeam without breaking it to make a crossbow that would benefit from adding your strength bonus.
Venator 12-24-06, 04:34 AM	Thanks for the info. So it still seems that me being a Ranger/Fighter, thus having access to Martial weapons, its simply worse to use a crossbow over a bow (unless I'm tripped or whatnot.) Also, since I do plan on being a melee type 99% of the time, if enemies are in melee and I still have my ranged weapon equiped, something is already wrong (as i mentioned before "only when terrain calls for ranged combat.") Thanks for the clarification Swine, for whatever reason i thought it was reloading in melee that provoked with a crossbow and not firing. Guess I was mistaken. Power be to those Non-Elven Rogues and low Str characters that use crossbows for style. ~Venator
draconic_swine 12-24-06, 11:41 AM	I agree that the sling gets even less love than the crossbow. My group has alternated between boosting their damage to 1d6, or allowing them to be reloaded as a free action. We've also played with "mighty" crossbows at one point. I believe it was +500 gp for each +1 to damage for both light and heavy crossbows.
draconic_swine 12-24-06, 11:43 AM	Thanks for the clarification Swine, for whatever reason i thought it was reloading in melee that provoked with a crossbow and not firing. Guess I was mistaken. My group has also tinkered with the idea that crossbows (and pistols, in games we include them in) can be fired at an adjacent opponent without drawing an AoO from that opponent only. It would probably be a feat, but we've never really fleshed it out. It could be interesting.
Ocom 12-24-06, 12:09 PM	As a (lousy) optimizer i would not recommend you to to use it. You are able to use a longbow so why choose a crossbow instead, and a light crossbow to be exact. But i do encourage you to do so. Crossbows tend to be overlooked but can give a character a lot more style than a guy with a longbow. If you are going to use a light crossbow, use two, you already have TWF and need the damage. There are ways to be able to fire bolts without reloading but i can't remember how.
Frodo34x 12-24-06, 01:59 PM	Also, you can wield a crossbow in each hand. Useful for those situations where you are only going to get one round of shooting anyway.
Roland the Crownbreaker 12-24-06, 02:13 PM	Originally posted by dengarbountyhunter But the weapons that are REALLY left out are slings. What a nice weapon, yet nobody takes it because there's no sling prestige class, no sling feats, no advantages over anything with it... Yup, pretty sad. If you can get ahold of Races of Faerun they have a sling based prestige class (although it is based of an exotic weapon using exotic ammunition) that is actually pretty cool. That said, the sling does offer two advantages that make it a good low level weapon. One, it gives the str bonus to the user like it was a thrown weapon, without having to spend a pile of extra gold. Two, the ammo for it is the cheapest you can find. 1 silver for 10 bullets or if you are desperate and willing to take a minor penalty, free.
wonlee76 12-24-06, 02:53 PM	I used crossbows for NPCs against the group recently and find it to be good for what it is. A simple long range weapon that deals decent damage. With some new feats from PHB II, this becomes a bit better. I'm particularly fond of the feat that gives you bonus damage = 1/2 your dex modifier (I forget the name of the feat but its in the previews for PHB II). This makes those scrawny Kobolds or other low strength monsters a threat at range especially with the slightly higher threat range on a light crossbow. :)
Necromas 12-24-06, 03:21 PM	Crossbow Advantages: -No str penalty -Feat for half dex bonus to damage when within 60ft -Simple weapon Crossbow Disadvantages: -No str bonus -Need to spend a feat to load it fast, the feat only applies to one type of crossbow you choose. (and even with it, heavy crossbows still load as a move action) -Reloading always provokes an AOO. -Abilities that let you shoot into melee without provoking an AOO don't help you since you still have to reload and that still provokes. Bow Advantages: -Str bonus to damage -Reloading is always a free action -Abilities like close combat shot prevent you from getting AOOs when firing -Bow friendly prestige classes -Bow friendly feats Bow Disadvantages: -Firing provokes an AOO -Martial Weapon Basically, a bow is ALWAYS better then a crossbow unless under these circumstances: -You have a strength penalty or cannot afford a composite bow. -You have the crossbow sniper feat and your dexterity bonus is more then twice your strength bonus. Or you wish to use the feat for longer range sneak attacks. -You don't have proficiency with bows and you have rapid reload as a bonus feat, or you just don't mind spending move actions to reload. -You find a kickass magic crossbow or bolts. -You find a crossbow specialist prestige class. (are there any? cause I'm a big crossbow fan)
Behaigo 12-24-06, 04:04 PM	I've always beleived that crossbows should deal much more damage then they do. The use of these devices allowed soldiers to use and shoot weapons with a draw force far in excess of what they could have handled with a bow. In the later years of the crossbow it had enough kinetic energy to penetrate any chainmail and most plate armor hit squarely: some reached a draw force of nearly 1600 N (350 lbf), compared to the 300-900 N (60-180 lbf) draw force for a longbow. Thats for a "light" crossbow. The arbalest was a late variation of the medieval European crossbow. A larger weapon, the arbalest had a steel prod ("bow"). Since an arbalest was much larger than earlier crossbows, and because of the greater tensile strength of steel, it had a greater force. The strongest windlass-pulled arbalests could have up to 22 kN (5000 lbf) strength and be accurate up to 500 m. An arbalest is essentialy a "heavy" crossbow. (see pic below) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Arbalette-p1000546.jpg/349px-Arbalette-p1000546.jpg 180 lbf = 1d8 5000 lbf = 1d10?? Something doesn't seem right
Fallenangel359 12-24-06, 05:14 PM	there is a feat called deadeye that adds full dex to damage, within 30 feet, and is considered a percision based damage, and will not work against crit immune Then there is also crossbow sniper, which adds half of dex to damage vs anyone, and increases skirmish, sneak attack, and other percision based damage to 60 feet mix the 2... 1.5x dex to damage up to 60 feet
Necromas 12-24-06, 06:17 PM	Behaigo. You're forgetting that the average crossbowman could only fire about 3 shots per minute in real life. Wheras a longbowman could get off 20 shots a minute. I also noticed you left out the A skilled arbalestier could shoot two bolts per minute. part of your arbalest quote. Source: www.wikipedia.org DnD is never realistic. If you hit someone encased head to toe in 200lbs of battle plate, it does the same damage as if you hit a naked person.
draconic_swine 12-24-06, 11:00 PM	Crossbow Advantages: -No str penalty -Feat for half dex bonus to damage when within 60ft -Simple weapon -Firing doesn't provoke an AOO Again, firing a crossbow provokes an AoO, just like any other ranged weapon. Since this is the second time this has come up in the thread, I wonder if there's text somewhere (in the core rules or another book), that implies otherwise?
Necromas 12-24-06, 11:04 PM	Again, firing a crossbow provokes an AoO, just like any other ranged weapon. Since this is the second time this has come up in the thread, I wonder if there's text somewhere (in the core rules or another book), that implies otherwise? I just read what the other guy said and apparently missed the guy that corrected him. Oops.
Morotis 12-24-06, 11:53 PM	For your fighter, the bow is a better choice. But for other classes with different stats, crossbows are better. As for Slings, I love using them. I usually only carry 1 pouch of bullets since they weigh so much, but you can find a rock (Or a rock substitute) pretty much anywhere. The sling really needs some feats or prestige classes or anything that makes them appealing from anywhere but a flavor standpoint. Not their's anything wrong with the flavor standpoint :)
ravenshrike 12-25-06, 12:25 AM	Bows in D&D are gay for one simple reason, they are more than an order of magnitude over what their actual price point should be.
Lord Gwydion 12-25-06, 12:45 AM	One point to think about, that everyone so far has overlooked: The Repeating Crossbow. Crossbow, Repeating: The repeating crossbow (whether heavy or light) holds 5 crossbow bolts. As long as it holds bolts, you can reload it by pulling the reloading lever (a free action). Loading a new case of 5 bolts is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. You can fire a repeating crossbow with one hand or fire a repeating crossbow in each hand in the same manner as you would a normal crossbow of the same size. However, you must fire the weapon with two hands in order to use the reloading lever, and you must use two hands to load a new case of bolts. For the price of a feat (Ex. Wpn. Prof.) reloading even a heavy crossbow becomes a free action (until the magazine is expended). Granted, a bow is still a superior weapon in D&D terms, but repeating crossbows aren't bad. They're definitely worth the feat required to use them.
Venator 12-25-06, 03:23 AM	Thanks again people :D I'm sure I'll end up using either a Light crossbow or a sling when the campaign starts up. The twin light crossbows seems cool but also seems very unrealistic. My character is already going to have two longswords on his belt, I just cant imagine where I would fit two light crossbows, let alone one. The characters is meant to be a lightly armored Ranger/Fighter who has the advantage of mobility in combat (I'm going to max Tumble as a cross class skill and make full use of the level 1 ranger spell "longstider" which will put me up to a 40 speed) I'll probably end up using a sling (although I'm not set in stone since sling bullets are 1/2 a lb. a pop) I appreciate all the posts guys, thanks again :) ~Venator
Fallenangel359 12-25-06, 11:23 AM	if you were unaware, there is self reloading light crossbow in minitures handbook, and there is another mod called "quick loading" if I remember right, which gives you an extra dimensional space to put up to 100 bolts in. Using them together, you can use crossbows, completely 1handed, and with two weapon fighting feat, and oversized two weapon fighting, you can use both, with -2 penalties to each like normal two weapon fighting, and you could get improved two weapon fighting and get extra attacks. Also what bolt comes out, is your choice :) No quiver required, just 2 crossbows. If your DM allows taking a template from one item and placing it on another, self reloading was about 4,000 gold... see if he'll let you put it on hand crossbows... then you can go around in a 2 weapon fury
savant_warlord13 12-25-06, 11:33 AM	Crossbows are meant to be inferior. That is, D&D seems to have taken lesson from things like the battle of Crecy into account in its design. They have their niche, captured fairly well by the fact that they are simple weapons and don't give a strength penalty, in that crossbows were far easier to field than longbows, the latter requiring lengthy training/conditioning on the part of the soldier in question to utilize effectively. It simply was far less work to field a unit of crossbowmen than longbowmen. In fact, in most places it was impossible to field skilled longbowmen. The English could do it because their culture was such that lots and lots of young men used longbows all the time at home. As such, they grew up with the skills and powerful backs necessary to make good longbowmen. Where no such culture existed, the crossbow was the weapon of choice. Anyway, the heavy crossbows that could fire with great power and could be reloaded behind a wall or pavise during a seige were the optimal choice for many situations. So they don't get much love in D&D, but that's probably for fairly sound reasons. (I'm at best an amatuer historian, so if I said something in the above that someone feels is incorrect, I'll defer. This is just what I have read in a couple places.) That said, one benefit of the crossbow is that you can fire it while prone. For extended ranged fights, that's awesome. You get a +4 to your AC and take no penalty to hit. Yay! Some Chinese armies fired bows (not crossbows) from a prone position to great effect. They did it kind of like Raptorans in flight with their crazy foot-bows.
savant_warlord13 12-25-06, 11:39 AM	Bows in D&D are gay for one simple reason, they are more than an order of magnitude over what their actual price point should be. First off, you're wrong. Making a bow is extremely labor intensive. Go look for bows on the internet and find their prices. You can thank advanced manufacturing processes and new materials for those seemingly exorbitant prices. If you want the kind of bow that was used in the middle ages, be prepared to shell out upwards of one grand. Secondly, gay should never be used as an insult. Calling inanimate objects gay is just plain stupid anyway.
ravenshrike 12-25-06, 01:14 PM	First off, you're wrong. Making a bow is extremely labor intensive. Go look for bows on the internet and find their prices. You can thank advanced manufacturing processes and new materials for those seemingly exorbitant prices. If you want the kind of bow that was used in the middle ages, be prepared to shell out upwards of one grand. Secondly, gay should never be used as an insult. Calling inanimate objects gay is just plain stupid anyway. For a standard longbow, that is NOT masterwork, it is pretty damn cheap to make. In game, going off the price of staples as a baseline, the longbow costs between $1600 and $2500. About an order of magnitude off. Now, for a MASTERWORK bow, sure. But for a standard bow, no frigging way. http://www.possibleshop.com/bows.htm
Necromas 12-25-06, 05:00 PM	I'd MUCH rather use a light crossbow and rapid reload then spending a feat on a repeating heavy crossbow for one simple reason, After you fire 5 bolts, it's a full round action to reload, once you get multiple attacks per round, or use something like rapid shot, you're suddenly using from a third to half of your rounds reloading anyways.
Morotis 12-25-06, 09:21 PM	Some Chinese armies fired bows (not crossbows) from a prone position to great effect. They did it kind of like Raptorans in flight with their crazy foot-bows. You make a valid point, Raptoran foot-bows are in fact, crazy. I hate raptoran so much... As for the thing about Chinese armies, you shouldn't use a Jet-Li movie as a historical reference. While speaking of weapons that get no respect, Why does everyone ignore the Sickle, it's the only 1-handed weapon that makes trip attempts without a feat needed.
dengarbountyhunter 12-25-06, 11:11 PM	People ignore the sickle because of the kama :P.
WolfHati 12-26-06, 04:10 AM	Since you can take the rapid reload feat twice to fire as many heavy crossbow bolts as you want in a round, the only reason for repeating heavy crossbows is the possibility to convince the DM to let your massive barbarian carry around a repeating ballista. While it wouldn't be useful all the time, situations where you had a few rounds to prepare and set it up... Along those veins, since the DMG says a ballista is huge heavy crossbow mounted on a stand, it seems like rapid reload should reduce the reload time. Maybe 2 rounds -> 1 round -> move action or something?
Morotis 12-26-06, 09:19 AM	Rapid reload can be taken multiple times. However with each new time taken it does not reduce the time to load by one step. Each feat only reduces the time to reload a crossbow by one step (move action to free action) for a particular type of crossbow. If you took rapid reload 3 times, each time it would apply to a new type of crossbow, (Heavy, light, or hand) not the same type 3 times.
Morwen 12-26-06, 09:35 AM	Also, bows take up a lot more vertical space than crossbows. If you often find yourself in low-ceilinged areas, crossbows would be the way to go :)
Grave_Accomplice 12-26-06, 10:56 AM	- Can be fired while prone - decent weapon under water - smaller races can use it as a crew serviced weapon (a gnome watch tower has a mounted crossbow with one shooter and one loader)
draconic_swine 12-26-06, 12:13 PM	For a standard longbow, that is NOT masterwork, it is pretty damn cheap to make. In game, going off the price of staples as a baseline, the longbow costs between $1600 and $2500. About an order of magnitude off. Now, for a MASTERWORK bow, sure. But for a standard bow, no frigging way. http://www.possibleshop.com/bows.htm Sure, bows are relatively cheap now - with modern manufacturing techniques making both the processing of the raw materials and the actual construction easier, faster, and much, much cheaper. Historical prices won't correlate with modern prices so easily.
scottt 12-26-06, 10:17 PM	Also, bows take up a lot more vertical space than crossbows. If you often find yourself in low-ceilinged areas, crossbows would be the way to go :)Yep, crossbows do not take penalties in cramped spaces like almost every other weapon does and as pointed out by Grave_Accomplice, they still work under water. As a melee fighter I prefer them to bows, not sure why but a single crossbow shot and then draw weapon to receive charge has a nice feel to it. *Shrugs* If you are fighting in caves then bring a good spear and a light crossbow. Good simple versatile weapons that you will miss in a 4ft tall, 2ft wide kobold nest.
draconic_swine 12-26-06, 11:07 PM	Yep, crossbows do not take penalties in cramped spaces like almost every other weapon does ... If you are fighting in caves then bring a good spear and a light crossbow. Good simple versatile weapons that you will miss in a 4ft tall, 2ft wide kobold nest. If you houserule it this way. Under the RAW, every weapon receives the same penalty for being used in a cramped space, whether it's your fist or your greataxe.
scottt 12-26-06, 11:51 PM	If you houserule it this way. Under the RAW, every weapon receives the same penalty for being used in a cramped space, whether it's your fist or your greataxe.Hmm... interesting. I admit I was going from some rules I found in the Underdark source book. But it seemed to make so much sense I assumed it was RAW as well. Sorry to mislead anyone unnecessarily. (Side note... Speaking of all weapons being the same... I believe that variable weapon damage was an optional rule in the original D&D. Without it all weapons did 1d6)
TheAngryFish 12-26-06, 11:59 PM	Militia with crossbows>Militia with bows Fighters/Rangers with crossbows<Fighters/Rangers with bows Wizards/Sorcerors with crossbows<Wizards/Sorcerors with bows a crossbow does more damage than a bow, unless if someone has enough strength to put a composite bow to use
Draxo 12-27-06, 12:23 AM	I seem to recall something called a Kobold Double Crossbow, where you take a full-round to load it, then another one to fire it twice. If you follow the shoot and engage tactic with a heavy one, you could really do some damage. Can someone clarify just what use this is to me? The way i see it, it seems inferior to a light crossbow, if you take the rapid reload feat, you can fire every round anyway. And can fire multiple times/round with multiple attacks since reloading is a free action. This double crossbow seems useless unless you have BaB 1-5 and no rapid reload feat.
draconic_swine 12-27-06, 11:15 AM	It's still inferior to the light crossbow, but it's a step up on the heavy crossbow. Other than that, it's pretty much limited to people without iterative attacks, as you suggested. On a related note, I'd be interested to find out whether the two bolts are fired using two attack rolls or a single attack roll. If it's two attack rolls, then it's definitely more useful to rogues than a heavy crossbow due to the possibility of two sneak attacks (if you get the right conditions, of course) and other related extra damage abilities.
Fallenangel359 12-28-06, 06:29 PM	Remember... a self reloading light crossbow gives you free rapid reload, for the purpose of that bow only... Then if you take crossbow sniper, and deadeye, you have 1.5x dex to damage Take the average player playing a pixie... 14+8 dex... 22 dex... mod of 6... so 1.5x is 9... 1d6+9 Same player, 14-4 strength... 10 strength, composite bow with deadeye... mod of 6... 1d6+6 My point is, its dependant on str mod
Thane26425 12-28-06, 09:12 PM	Slightly off topic, but you might try carrying a throwing axe with some spare handles. You could throw the axe at the beginning of a melee while the enemy is closing and then draw the main weapon. Even if they get close before the throw, the axe can still be used in melee without penalty like there would be with a bow or crossbow. If your DM is realistic, you should have a good chance of recovering the throwing axe even if it hits a target without damage. On the off chance that it breaks, that would almost certainly be the handle that breaks and could be replaced with a spare from the pack in a few minutes. That way you could be ready for close combat while keeping the bows and such for longer ranged combat or when fighting from a defensive position.
draconic_swine 12-29-06, 12:35 AM	If your DM is realistic, you should have a good chance of recovering the throwing axe even if it hits a target without damage. That, or if your DM is following the rules. Thrown weapons are infinitely recoverable (assuming no one sunders or steals them). The 50% chance to break rule only applies to ammunition.
Clawhound 12-29-06, 11:59 AM	A small point to add. Crossbows can be fired one-handed at a small penalty. You can also shoot two in the same round at a penalty mitigated by Two Weapon Fighting. Crossbows should really have a strength bonus to them. There's a reason that the heavy ones needed winches to load. According to one history of the crossbow that I read, there was one battle where they used crossbows in a coordinated mass to attack at a key time. The results were so good that the crossbow took over as the favored infantry ranged weapon. In D&D terms, true heavy crossbows are way too slow to use in squad combat, but give a mass of peasant 1's a crossbow with a +4 to hit and +4 to damage, and you have a lethal gambit to break enemy formations. It's a peasant-powered fireball followed by a heavy cavalry charge through the broken formation.
Ispose 12-29-06, 01:13 PM	I've been thinking of a New Dwarven Exotic Weapons: The Dwarven Springbolt Think of a Double barreled Shotgun with spring steel coils inside the barrels, crank down the springs, insert bolts down barrels, aim and shoot. Stat wise: Damage - Med - 1d12 Range - 80' - Lots of Punch but short range Takes a Full round to Reload each Barrel Require Exotic Wpn Proficiency Cost - 500 GP Would be a great weapons for crawling around as it can be used while prone. Would also make your Dwarf Fighter ot Rogue look just plain cool
strife_001 12-31-06, 09:38 PM	Behaigo. You're forgetting that the average crossbowman could only fire about 3 shots per minute in real life. Wheras a longbowman could get off 20 shots a minute. I also noticed you left out the part of your arbalest quote. Source: www.wikipedia.org DnD is never realistic. If you hit someone encased head to toe in 200lbs of battle plate, it does the same damage as if you hit a naked person. Thats why you take the leadership feat and have all your level 1 followers reloading your 20 or so arbalests and handing them to you, sure thats a lot of money spent on enchantments, but in a low magic adventure it seems like a fair tactic. Besides as said above D&D is not realistic, especially when you hit epic levels, level 30 archer, if surrounded by enemies he can launch a single arrow at EACH target within 30ft, if he knows roughly where his target is he can fire with no miss chance, ignores all but total cover, (and this feat isn't epic, precise shot) look the target has 1/10 of his little finger out, no bonus to AC, dealing full damage as if they had aimed into the center of the chest, and firing 5 shots a round, while moving, improved manyshot.
Lord_Shonus 01-01-07, 01:47 AM	In response to an earlier post, I think crossbows should come in different sizes for different strenth ratings. RW crossbows are available in vrying draws, some requiring 50 lbs to draw, some 100, some 150, etc. How it would work wold be a crossbow sized for a +1 modifier would require a +1 modifier to load, and not to fire. It would do +1 to damage.
PhaedrusXY 01-01-07, 01:58 AM	All the Sling needs is to allow the Rapid Reload feat be applied to it. Then it would be a great weapon.
Snicker 01-01-07, 10:42 AM	While speaking of weapons that get no respect, Why does everyone ignore the Sickle, it's the only 1-handed weapon that makes trip attempts without a feat needed. Light flail? Anyway, don't count out the crossbow just yet. Remember, as others said, you can go prone without penalty. Since you're a melee fighter, you'll only take out the crossbow when you can't get to them and they can't get to you, so there's no chance they'll starting whacking you in melee when you're prone. You're basically talking a free +4 to AC here.