Crossbows: Stored Loaded? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Crossbows: Stored Loaded? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SgtHulka
07-25-05, 04:34 PM Hi, guys. Can you store/sling a crossbow already loaded?

In other words, let's say you have a sheathed sword. Drawing it takes a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity (assume a +0 attack bonus). But once it's drawn, you can attack with it.

Same goes for a slung bow. You draw it with a move action and can fire it that same round.

What about a slung crossbow? If you draw it, or unsling it, with a move action, can you fire it immediately, or do you then have to load it?

I've been curious about this for some time. I've always played that you have to load it, but I've never found an answer to this question in the rules as written.
Keenath
07-25-05, 04:39 PM I don't think it's possible to store a crossbow with the ammo already in place. It would fall out. I suppose you could carry it already cocked, and use a free action to slot the quarrel (like loading a sling or bow).

Of course, in most cases, people walking around in a dangerous place would have the crossbow already cocked and loaded, though in that case they're carrying it rather than drawing it when combat starts.
Pei-Pe
07-25-05, 04:44 PM Mechanically, yes, you could walk around with it cocked, not loaded (except for that covered crossbow) but realistically, you'd probably ruin the weapon after a day or two. This is one of those things where we accept a lack of reality for fun in gameplay, worrying about the weapon itself isn't fun for most people.
For example there are no spare bow-strings listed for sale so in theory, either archers and crossbowman are considered to carry so many as to make their breaking moot or they are out of luck should the string be attacked. I used to make a Nat One be a broken string for those weapons.

I never hear of players unstringing bows when they aren't planning on using them immediately, when it rains or what not.
quaiven
07-25-05, 04:48 PM Drawing a weapon doesn't provoke and AoO regardless of your BAB. As to keeping slings and crossbows loaded while stored IMO no it isn't feasible or realistic (yeah yeah I know you shouldn't bring realism into DnD). But lets look at the sling for a minute, the DnD sling not the slingshot we are all used to. The sling is essentially a long piece of leather or rope with a small pocket for bullets, keeping it loaded while stored is problematic at best. As for the crossbow, keeping it loaded for long periods of time will wear out the elasticity of the string (IRL the strings were actually removed or covered to protect them from rain). If your DM allows it, or if you as DM allow it, then so long as everyone is having fun go for it.

Edit: Hmmm could have sworn I saw something about slings in the original post, oh well I'll leave it in to cover the next argument I guess :)
Jaid
07-25-05, 05:30 PM actually, i am pretty sure that on a crossbow, you never unstring it.

now, a bow you would unstring. but a crossbow, as i understand it, is not so easy to string/unstring (not that a bow is necessarily easy, but...)

however, that being said, keeping it cocked would indeed cause the crossbow to lose it's spring i think. if you wanted to play realistically. and of course, the bolt would fall out rather easily if you don't hold it at ready anyways.

(and for the record, the power behind a longbow, and as i understand for a crossbow as well, is not in the string... it's in the wood/metal. the strings are not particularly elastic, it's the bow itself, or the arms of the crossbow, that store the force. the string mostly just transfers the force.)
Pei-Pe
07-25-05, 05:42 PM right the cross-bow is not unstrung, but you would cover the string in inclement weather. as the power would be severely hampered because of rain, etc.
psionichamster
07-25-05, 05:58 PM the problem with wet bow strings (or crossbow strings) is not that they lose elasticity, but rather that they gain it.

when the arms of the bow snap forward, they impart momentum to the bolt/arrow by pulling the string forward. if the string is mushy or elastic, that force is now diminished by the elastic nature of the string.

that's why later crossbows (real-life "heavy x-bows") often had wire or heavily treated "strings" to fire the projectiles. catgut, linen, and the like would all bend or snap under the pressures they experienced.

namaste'
the hamster

(as far as keeping it stored "cocked and locked"....the sling would not come out the right way, most likely, and the bolt would fall off the tray. )
Pei-Pe
07-25-05, 06:05 PM That sounds about right. The last thing an archer or crossbowman wants is a slackened string. (Aside from a charging enemy spotted within the last 7 feet)
DevilKiller
07-25-05, 06:08 PM On the other hand, it would be a trivial task for any gnome worth his salt to invent a device which holds a bolt in a crossbow until ready to fire. Various designs come to mind.
Pei-Pe
07-25-05, 06:09 PM Like the covered han crossbow for use while climbing.
mvincent
07-25-05, 06:35 PM D&D is rife with things like crossbow traps hidden in walls for years on end (along with things even more improbably). I guess PC's should have access to these same items ;)

It's not something to worry about in D&D. I just assume that the PC's are experienced enough to have them loaded/strung when trouble is possible, and perform any needed maintenance "off-screen". Plus, most D&D worlds are pretty advanced thanks to magic and exceptional craftsmen... they could probably develop some pretty durable crossbows if that was important to them.
chitzk0i
07-25-05, 06:49 PM D&D is rife with things like crossbow traps hidden in walls for years on end (along with things even more improbably). I guess PC's should have access to these same items ;)

It's not something to worry about in D&D. I just assume that the PC's are experienced enough to have them loaded/strung when trouble is possible, and perform any needed maintenance "off-screen". Plus, most D&D worlds are pretty advanced thanks to magic and exceptional craftsmen... they could probably develop some pretty durable crossbows if that was important to them.

Yeah, tell that to my DM. He won't let my Rogue carry a cocked crossbow.
mvincent
07-25-05, 07:20 PM Yeah, tell that to my DM. He won't let my Rogue carry a cocked crossbow.Do more dungeon crawling, because:
1) A rogue will certainly have his crossbow loaded entering a dungeon (even bad crossbows could be kept loaded when you're moving through a combat zone). You generally don't go for more than two hours before stopping to allow your wizards to recharge their spells.
2) Maybe you'll spring a crossbow trap (something similar that's been kept loaded for awhile). You can then dig it out and use it as your own, or at least give your DM grief for playing by a different set of rules ;)
Cathon
07-25-05, 08:34 PM An already cocked crossbow wouldn't take any longer to unsling load and fire than a slung bow. If it was something you did often you could probably get a safety on the crossbow to keep it from dry firing accidentally. Most of the time, though, PCs carry the cocked and loaded crossbows in their hands and draw their melee weapons as needed.

An actual loaded crossbow would be a lot harder to store properly, while moving though, since it really needs to be level or tilted back a bit to not have the bolt slide off. A loaded crossbow by your bed or resting on the neck of your mount, sure. A loaded crossbow slung over your shoulder to be whipped out quickly, I don't think so.
pres_man
07-25-05, 09:10 PM 2) Maybe you'll spring a crossbow trap (something similar that's been kept loaded for awhile). You can then dig it out and use it as your own, or at least give your DM grief for playing by a different set of rules ;)
My guess is that a crossbow trap is not a true crossbow, and probably uses a metal wire under tension. Therefore different rules could easily apply to different items.
ChaosSaber
07-25-05, 09:38 PM When I'm DM'ing, I say any crossbow of exceptional quality (+1 or better) can be kept cocked but not loaded for an indefinite period of time. Let's face it, if your weapon can impart magical damage on its ammo, it should at least be able to stay cocked without wearing out.
Brave_Sir_Robin
07-25-05, 09:43 PM even a metal wire will lose its tension over time
Spirit_Golem
07-25-05, 10:03 PM The problem I have with crossbows being preloaded, is that it may accedentally fire. It would be similar to leaving the safety off when storing a gun: just plain dangerous.
Brave_Sir_Robin
07-25-05, 10:22 PM if the X-bow is cocked, but you dont load the projectile itself, then A: it wont fire accidently, B:loading the projectile itself is like loading a bow, so in combat you could shoot with it just like a bow
SgtHulka
07-26-05, 09:39 AM Thanks for the responses, guys.
Tsh77769
07-27-05, 03:02 AM As far as DND rules go,I have no idea, but having owned a x-bow IRL, I can tell you with certainty that while you do not "store" it long term cocked and loaded, you most certainly do "carry" it cocked and loaded. This is one of the benefits of a x-bow over a regular bow. There is a small passive clamp or spring or latch that retains the arrow until fired. You do not normaly unstring a x-bow AFAIK, I had one for years and never did and never noticed any negative impact. Also, springs, at least of the metal kind, are not weakened by maintained compression but by cycling from one state to the other.

Tsh77769
Tsh77769
07-27-05, 04:54 AM There was absolutely nothing I said that required or desired you to come forth with such a caustic and insulting response that was unrelated to the material at hand and which added nothing positive, productive, or useful to the discussion.

Therefore, be gone with you.

Tsh77769
Nimrud
07-27-05, 05:01 AM I am a real-life human being and I know that real-life arguments based on personal experiences are usually packs of lies (you probably do not own a crossbow any more than I am a ninja) and even if they weren't (which they are) they have no bearing on the game and nobody cares what you think.

In which case none of the other responses which are based on real life arguments are valid either.

Very constructive.
Rowan_Whispercloak
07-27-05, 05:30 AM I see no problem other than you putting you eye out, but then how will you learn if you don't put your eye out. I will make a killing selling eye patches. :D

But seriously you can carry a sling or crossbow loaded, at least in DND, mainly because I remember it being cited in a few modules and in a Dragon magazine or two.
Darastin
07-27-05, 05:41 AM Number one reason why not to carry a cocked crossbow (loaded or not): The trigger.

Modern crossbows often have triggers like firearms - sized for one or two fingers and with a trigger guard to prevent accidential firing, and perhaps even a safety.

A D&D crossbow represents medieval technology and has an extended wooden or metal lever as a trigger, with no means of proctection. You might sling it on your back and carry it, but accidentially triggering it when backing up to a wall, being hit in close combat or any other violent movement is not unlikely.

Just my two €-cents;
Darastin
Keenath
07-27-05, 09:59 AM Number one reason why not to carry a cocked crossbow (loaded or not): The trigger.Am I the only one who flashed on the old Disney Robin Hood movie? "Don't worry, the safety's on Ol' Betsy..." <pat> <KAPWING!>

Actually, it wouldn't be hard at all to add a mechanical pin that locks out the trigger mechanism. Not foolproof, perhaps, but it's absolutely idiotic to say that I can't carry a loaded, cocked crossbow in my hands while running around in a dungeon (allowing me to fire in the surprise round, for example), and I honestly don't see a problem wtih letting somebody precock the crossbow and unsling it for use when battle starts. As long as it's just for a few hours while they're adventuring, fine. Don't do it all day and all night, no, but this is a little like saying a fighter shouldn't have his sword drawn because of the danger of cutting somebody by accident.
VirgilCaine
07-27-05, 10:59 AM You could use a Glove of Storing. In 3.5 they're seriously expensive, though.
Tsh77769
07-27-05, 03:40 PM Darastin does make an excellent point.

Tsh77769
Nom
07-28-05, 12:18 AM Actually, it wouldn't be hard at all to add a mechanical pin that locks out the trigger mechanism. ...At which point you haven't really gained anything, because you now need two move actions to ready the crossbow to fire (one to "draw", one to remove the safety pin) which is the same as you needed previously (one to "draw", one to load).

Basically, you can carry a crossbow ready to fire. However, putting it away like that will almost certainly spill the bolt out of firing position, as will dropping it (as opposed to carefully placing it on the ground). Further, either risks accidentally triggering the bow, hopefully without serious consequences.
WizO_Cat
07-28-05, 10:26 PM Ok, let's cut out the personal insults in the posts. Keep you posts to the subject matter of the thread, not other guests. Otherwise, I'm going to have to close the thread and send out Official Warnsto the offenders on both sides. Just a friendly reminder.
DDogwood
07-29-05, 10:36 AM Also I own a sled dog and it has never tripped anyone. Nor can small children ride it.

Owning a crossbow in real life is not the same as claiming to be a ninja or a wizard in real life.

Also, I don't know about small children riding your dog, but I think that this video (http://*********************/videos/policedogs.html) demonstrates how a trained war dog gets its trip attacks.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SgtHulka 07-25-05, 04:34 PM	Hi, guys. Can you store/sling a crossbow already loaded? In other words, let's say you have a sheathed sword. Drawing it takes a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity (assume a +0 attack bonus). But once it's drawn, you can attack with it. Same goes for a slung bow. You draw it with a move action and can fire it that same round. What about a slung crossbow? If you draw it, or unsling it, with a move action, can you fire it immediately, or do you then have to load it? I've been curious about this for some time. I've always played that you have to load it, but I've never found an answer to this question in the rules as written.
Keenath 07-25-05, 04:39 PM	I don't think it's possible to store a crossbow with the ammo already in place. It would fall out. I suppose you could carry it already cocked, and use a free action to slot the quarrel (like loading a sling or bow). Of course, in most cases, people walking around in a dangerous place would have the crossbow already cocked and loaded, though in that case they're carrying it rather than drawing it when combat starts.
Pei-Pe 07-25-05, 04:44 PM	Mechanically, yes, you could walk around with it cocked, not loaded (except for that covered crossbow) but realistically, you'd probably ruin the weapon after a day or two. This is one of those things where we accept a lack of reality for fun in gameplay, worrying about the weapon itself isn't fun for most people. For example there are no spare bow-strings listed for sale so in theory, either archers and crossbowman are considered to carry so many as to make their breaking moot or they are out of luck should the string be attacked. I used to make a Nat One be a broken string for those weapons. I never hear of players unstringing bows when they aren't planning on using them immediately, when it rains or what not.
quaiven 07-25-05, 04:48 PM	Drawing a weapon doesn't provoke and AoO regardless of your BAB. As to keeping slings and crossbows loaded while stored IMO no it isn't feasible or realistic (yeah yeah I know you shouldn't bring realism into DnD). But lets look at the sling for a minute, the DnD sling not the slingshot we are all used to. The sling is essentially a long piece of leather or rope with a small pocket for bullets, keeping it loaded while stored is problematic at best. As for the crossbow, keeping it loaded for long periods of time will wear out the elasticity of the string (IRL the strings were actually removed or covered to protect them from rain). If your DM allows it, or if you as DM allow it, then so long as everyone is having fun go for it. Edit: Hmmm could have sworn I saw something about slings in the original post, oh well I'll leave it in to cover the next argument I guess :)
Jaid 07-25-05, 05:30 PM	actually, i am pretty sure that on a crossbow, you never unstring it. now, a bow you would unstring. but a crossbow, as i understand it, is not so easy to string/unstring (not that a bow is necessarily easy, but...) however, that being said, keeping it cocked would indeed cause the crossbow to lose it's spring i think. if you wanted to play realistically. and of course, the bolt would fall out rather easily if you don't hold it at ready anyways. (and for the record, the power behind a longbow, and as i understand for a crossbow as well, is not in the string... it's in the wood/metal. the strings are not particularly elastic, it's the bow itself, or the arms of the crossbow, that store the force. the string mostly just transfers the force.)
Pei-Pe 07-25-05, 05:42 PM	right the cross-bow is not unstrung, but you would cover the string in inclement weather. as the power would be severely hampered because of rain, etc.
psionichamster 07-25-05, 05:58 PM	the problem with wet bow strings (or crossbow strings) is not that they lose elasticity, but rather that they gain it. when the arms of the bow snap forward, they impart momentum to the bolt/arrow by pulling the string forward. if the string is mushy or elastic, that force is now diminished by the elastic nature of the string. that's why later crossbows (real-life "heavy x-bows") often had wire or heavily treated "strings" to fire the projectiles. catgut, linen, and the like would all bend or snap under the pressures they experienced. namaste' the hamster (as far as keeping it stored "cocked and locked"....the sling would not come out the right way, most likely, and the bolt would fall off the tray. )
Pei-Pe 07-25-05, 06:05 PM	That sounds about right. The last thing an archer or crossbowman wants is a slackened string. (Aside from a charging enemy spotted within the last 7 feet)
DevilKiller 07-25-05, 06:08 PM	On the other hand, it would be a trivial task for any gnome worth his salt to invent a device which holds a bolt in a crossbow until ready to fire. Various designs come to mind.
Pei-Pe 07-25-05, 06:09 PM	Like the covered han crossbow for use while climbing.
mvincent 07-25-05, 06:35 PM	D&D is rife with things like crossbow traps hidden in walls for years on end (along with things even more improbably). I guess PC's should have access to these same items ;) It's not something to worry about in D&D. I just assume that the PC's are experienced enough to have them loaded/strung when trouble is possible, and perform any needed maintenance "off-screen". Plus, most D&D worlds are pretty advanced thanks to magic and exceptional craftsmen... they could probably develop some pretty durable crossbows if that was important to them.
chitzk0i 07-25-05, 06:49 PM	D&D is rife with things like crossbow traps hidden in walls for years on end (along with things even more improbably). I guess PC's should have access to these same items ;) It's not something to worry about in D&D. I just assume that the PC's are experienced enough to have them loaded/strung when trouble is possible, and perform any needed maintenance "off-screen". Plus, most D&D worlds are pretty advanced thanks to magic and exceptional craftsmen... they could probably develop some pretty durable crossbows if that was important to them. Yeah, tell that to my DM. He won't let my Rogue carry a cocked crossbow.
mvincent 07-25-05, 07:20 PM	Yeah, tell that to my DM. He won't let my Rogue carry a cocked crossbow.Do more dungeon crawling, because: 1) A rogue will certainly have his crossbow loaded entering a dungeon (even bad crossbows could be kept loaded when you're moving through a combat zone). You generally don't go for more than two hours before stopping to allow your wizards to recharge their spells. 2) Maybe you'll spring a crossbow trap (something similar that's been kept loaded for awhile). You can then dig it out and use it as your own, or at least give your DM grief for playing by a different set of rules ;)
Cathon 07-25-05, 08:34 PM	An already cocked crossbow wouldn't take any longer to unsling load and fire than a slung bow. If it was something you did often you could probably get a safety on the crossbow to keep it from dry firing accidentally. Most of the time, though, PCs carry the cocked and loaded crossbows in their hands and draw their melee weapons as needed. An actual loaded crossbow would be a lot harder to store properly, while moving though, since it really needs to be level or tilted back a bit to not have the bolt slide off. A loaded crossbow by your bed or resting on the neck of your mount, sure. A loaded crossbow slung over your shoulder to be whipped out quickly, I don't think so.
pres_man 07-25-05, 09:10 PM	2) Maybe you'll spring a crossbow trap (something similar that's been kept loaded for awhile). You can then dig it out and use it as your own, or at least give your DM grief for playing by a different set of rules ;) My guess is that a crossbow trap is not a true crossbow, and probably uses a metal wire under tension. Therefore different rules could easily apply to different items.
ChaosSaber 07-25-05, 09:38 PM	When I'm DM'ing, I say any crossbow of exceptional quality (+1 or better) can be kept cocked but not loaded for an indefinite period of time. Let's face it, if your weapon can impart magical damage on its ammo, it should at least be able to stay cocked without wearing out.
Brave_Sir_Robin 07-25-05, 09:43 PM	even a metal wire will lose its tension over time
Spirit_Golem 07-25-05, 10:03 PM	The problem I have with crossbows being preloaded, is that it may accedentally fire. It would be similar to leaving the safety off when storing a gun: just plain dangerous.
Brave_Sir_Robin 07-25-05, 10:22 PM	if the X-bow is cocked, but you dont load the projectile itself, then A: it wont fire accidently, B:loading the projectile itself is like loading a bow, so in combat you could shoot with it just like a bow
SgtHulka 07-26-05, 09:39 AM	Thanks for the responses, guys.
Tsh77769 07-27-05, 03:02 AM	As far as DND rules go,I have no idea, but having owned a x-bow IRL, I can tell you with certainty that while you do not "store" it long term cocked and loaded, you most certainly do "carry" it cocked and loaded. This is one of the benefits of a x-bow over a regular bow. There is a small passive clamp or spring or latch that retains the arrow until fired. You do not normaly unstring a x-bow AFAIK, I had one for years and never did and never noticed any negative impact. Also, springs, at least of the metal kind, are not weakened by maintained compression but by cycling from one state to the other. Tsh77769
Tsh77769 07-27-05, 04:54 AM	There was absolutely nothing I said that required or desired you to come forth with such a caustic and insulting response that was unrelated to the material at hand and which added nothing positive, productive, or useful to the discussion. Therefore, be gone with you. Tsh77769
Nimrud 07-27-05, 05:01 AM	I am a real-life human being and I know that real-life arguments based on personal experiences are usually packs of lies (you probably do not own a crossbow any more than I am a ninja) and even if they weren't (which they are) they have no bearing on the game and nobody cares what you think. In which case none of the other responses which are based on real life arguments are valid either. Very constructive.
Rowan_Whispercloak 07-27-05, 05:30 AM	I see no problem other than you putting you eye out, but then how will you learn if you don't put your eye out. I will make a killing selling eye patches. :D But seriously you can carry a sling or crossbow loaded, at least in DND, mainly because I remember it being cited in a few modules and in a Dragon magazine or two.
Darastin 07-27-05, 05:41 AM	Number one reason why not to carry a cocked crossbow (loaded or not): The trigger. Modern crossbows often have triggers like firearms - sized for one or two fingers and with a trigger guard to prevent accidential firing, and perhaps even a safety. A D&D crossbow represents medieval technology and has an extended wooden or metal lever as a trigger, with no means of proctection. You might sling it on your back and carry it, but accidentially triggering it when backing up to a wall, being hit in close combat or any other violent movement is not unlikely. Just my two €-cents; Darastin
Keenath 07-27-05, 09:59 AM	Number one reason why not to carry a cocked crossbow (loaded or not): The trigger.Am I the only one who flashed on the old Disney Robin Hood movie? "Don't worry, the safety's on Ol' Betsy..." <pat> <KAPWING!> Actually, it wouldn't be hard at all to add a mechanical pin that locks out the trigger mechanism. Not foolproof, perhaps, but it's absolutely idiotic to say that I can't carry a loaded, cocked crossbow in my hands while running around in a dungeon (allowing me to fire in the surprise round, for example), and I honestly don't see a problem wtih letting somebody precock the crossbow and unsling it for use when battle starts. As long as it's just for a few hours while they're adventuring, fine. Don't do it all day and all night, no, but this is a little like saying a fighter shouldn't have his sword drawn because of the danger of cutting somebody by accident.
VirgilCaine 07-27-05, 10:59 AM	You could use a Glove of Storing. In 3.5 they're seriously expensive, though.
Tsh77769 07-27-05, 03:40 PM	Darastin does make an excellent point. Tsh77769
Nom 07-28-05, 12:18 AM	Actually, it wouldn't be hard at all to add a mechanical pin that locks out the trigger mechanism. ...At which point you haven't really gained anything, because you now need two move actions to ready the crossbow to fire (one to "draw", one to remove the safety pin) which is the same as you needed previously (one to "draw", one to load). Basically, you can carry a crossbow ready to fire. However, putting it away like that will almost certainly spill the bolt out of firing position, as will dropping it (as opposed to carefully placing it on the ground). Further, either risks accidentally triggering the bow, hopefully without serious consequences.
WizO_Cat 07-28-05, 10:26 PM	Ok, let's cut out the personal insults in the posts. Keep you posts to the subject matter of the thread, not other guests. Otherwise, I'm going to have to close the thread and send out Official Warnsto the offenders on both sides. Just a friendly reminder.
DDogwood 07-29-05, 10:36 AM	Also I own a sled dog and it has never tripped anyone. Nor can small children ride it. Owning a crossbow in real life is not the same as claiming to be a ninja or a wizard in real life. Also, I don't know about small children riding your dog, but I think that this video (http://*********************/videos/policedogs.html) demonstrates how a trained war dog gets its trip attacks.