Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bluebrush 05-02-05, 08:10 PM	Crowbar-Mace One handed simple bludgeoning weapon. 1d6 x2 10gp 5lbs The hook of the bar can be used to make trip attacks. Also serves the same function as a normal crowbar. (+2 to strength checks on opening doors and such) but balanced for use in a fight, improving it's "Improvised club" status to what you see before you today. Sound good? Now part of the reason I came up with this. What would be the appropriate price for, say, a +1 crowbar which granted an extra +2 on leverage checks (For +4 total) and allowed the weilder to cast Bull's Strength once a day?
CryoSilver 05-02-05, 09:01 PM	I'd say somewhere around 3,000 gp, but I'm too lazy to dig out a calculator/piece of paper to get an exact price. 2,300 for the weapon +1, 215*2 for the Bull's Strength and 400 for the extra +2 leverage, IIRC.
AzarKing 05-02-05, 09:16 PM	http://www.lanparty.com/images/photo/big/04-11-02-big.jpg Would approve :)
Bluebrush 05-02-05, 09:26 PM	The original opening to the entry contained the words "Yes, we all know you've played half life. Now that that's over with:" But I decided it was too snarky.
Rulebook 05-03-05, 07:27 PM	er... i replied to the wrong post here... ignore.
Ged Coldplain 05-04-05, 11:17 AM	Yes, the crowbar issue, I don’t understand why the crowbar that cost 10gp can’t be used as a fully functional crowbar… if I run into the woods I easily find the 0 gp club… the balance issue is just ********, really its not hard using its as a club or similar blunt weapon, it weighs a measly 2 lb more, and its overall design is strikingly similar to a heavy mace, I would even say that you should up the damage, as it is metal, and have a sharp and pointy end that focus the force of the blow, this can be argued of course, but I would say that for gameplay related reasons and for the sake of plain realism you should be able to use the crowbar as a simple weapon.
Nobuddy 05-04-05, 12:40 PM	yeah I say why not have the crowbar do piecering damage instead of bludening I mean both sides do have the pointy end thing going for it.
Evil Wizard 05-04-05, 01:11 PM	You mean the crowbar isn't just an expensive club with a bonus to open doors? Seriously, if there's one thing that shouldn't just be an "improvised weapon", it's the trusty crowbar. Improvised weapons, as I see them, are just objects too unwieldy to be proper clubs. Clubs are free because just about anything heavy, blunt, and one-handed makes an effective club. Besides, it would make a great magic weapon for a themed rogue.
Keenath 05-04-05, 01:20 PM	Since it IS metal, shouldn't the crowbar count as a heavy mace? Or possibly a light mace, for that matter, if you go by the weight. I guess that depends on what model of crowbar you get. (I've seen a lot that would be light weapons, but the one I have in my garage definitely weighs in the vicinity of 10 lbs!) Though I think a good argument can be made, though, that there's no such thing as an improvised club or mace, unless it's a totally bizarre shape (like a stool). Actually, now that I look, there's no such thing as an improvised anything. It's all just generic "improvised weapon", and each one has different effects based on what you're using.
Keenath 05-04-05, 01:21 PM	yeah I say why not have the crowbar do piecering damage instead of bludening I mean both sides do have the pointy end thing going for it. The pointy bit is cuved down, though.. I don't think it would make a very effective weapon. The main point of a crowbar used as a weapon is that it's sturdy, straight, and heavy. Besides, if you swung it with the claw down, wouldn't the blade on the opposite end stab you in the forearm?
Vahenir 05-04-05, 01:38 PM	Either a club.. or an improvised weapon, in my opinion. It's just a curved metal stick.
gavalon 05-04-05, 01:47 PM	i have a crowbar that i use at work to open up rusted freight train doors.... that is most definately a weapon. i have one that would be cosidered a large heavy mace. a crowbar is most definately not an improvised weapon. would you consider a hammer an improvised weapon just because its listed under tools? a hammer is a hammer, used the same way. a crowbar is a spiked club, its gunna hurt like a *****
Aubri 05-04-05, 01:53 PM	I'd definitely call it a club. It's made of metal, yes, but a mace has particular striking surfaces and a weighted head. A club is anything that's hard, straight, and heavy. Keenath is right, an improvised club is an object that's not really suited for clubbing people, like an appropriately sized (wooden) box, bottle, a bone, etc. (A bone being improvised nicely accounts for its tendency to shatter on impact.)
Vahenir 05-04-05, 03:47 PM	would you consider a hammer an improvised weapon just because its listed under tools? a hammer is a hammer, used the same way. a crowbar is a spiked club, its gunna hurt like a ***** Yes, I would call it an improvised weapon. Of course, I also disagree with the PH, I think a club that costs 0 gp should also be an improvised weapon. An Improvised Weapon is anything not specifically designed for combat, is it not? In that case, a tree branch is an improvised weapon. In my eyes, anything not -designed to be used in combat- is an improvised weapon, no matter how much it will hurt. If I hit you with a bottle, it's going to hurt a lot. If I hit you with a table leg, it's going to hurt a lot. If I hit you with my stereo - it's going to hurt a lot. So should those all fall under "club?" Because they'll hurt if I hit you with them? No. They're improvised.. they're not designed to be used in combat.
Bluebrush 05-04-05, 06:30 PM	Since it IS metal, shouldn't the crowbar count as a heavy mace? Or possibly a light mace, for that matter, if you go by the weight. I guess that depends on what model of crowbar you get. I based it on the heavy mace, took the damage down by one notch, since it weighs less and it's design isn't completly dedicated to busting heads. Then I added tripping capability to make it a balanced weapon. Besides, it would make a great magic weapon for a themed rogue. That's the plan. I should maybe dig out Manual of the Planes and stat out a Gatecrasher who uses one.
Aubri 05-05-05, 12:17 AM	Yes, I would call it an improvised weapon. Of course, I also disagree with the PH, I think a club that costs 0 gp should also be an improvised weapon. Not really. A lead pipe, a baseball bat, a nice heavy candlestick--all do the same thing a made-for-use club does--give your arm extra leverage and a harder striking surface. An improvised club is going to be awkwardly shaped or otherwise unsuitable for that use, like the objects I mentioned earlier.
Vahenir 05-05-05, 11:07 AM	Not really. A lead pipe, a baseball bat, a nice heavy candlestick--all do the same thing a made-for-use club does--give your arm extra leverage and a harder striking surface. An improvised club is going to be awkwardly shaped or otherwise unsuitable for that use, like the objects I mentioned earlier. You didn't follow what I meant. In my opinion, even your basic "club" in D&D should be an improvised weapon if it costs 0 gp. If it wasn't -made- for war, it shouldn't be considered a true weapon, and therefore using it as a weapon makes it improvised. Think about it and it makes sense. The very definition in D&D of an improvised weapon is an object not created to -be- a weapon, but used as such anyway. By that logic, the scythe, whip, tree-branch (club) - should all be improvised weapons - as none are actually created with the express purpose of taking life or otherwise to be used as a -weapon-. That's just my take.. I'm not saying everyone has to agree with me.
Aubri 05-05-05, 02:30 PM	Well, that's what I'm saying. What's the difference between a straight tree branch and a club "made for combat"? By that logic, the scythe, whip, tree-branch (club) - should all be improvised weapons - as none are actually created with the express purpose of taking life or otherwise to be used as a -weapon-. Uh.. what? The whip and the scythe are being used in the way they're intended to. They're weapons. So is a club, according to the weapons chart, and a club is defined simply as a straight, solid chunk of wood. If you want a club to be something that takes some manufacture, you're changing the rules of the game! It's true, the "club" is a little unusual because it encompasses a range of objects that may or may not have been created explicitly for whacking people, but a number of simple weapons can fall into that category as well.
Vahenir 05-05-05, 02:51 PM	Well, that's what I'm saying. What's the difference between a straight tree branch and a club "made for combat"? I imagine the club would be better balanced, and tooled especially to be gripped by hands (rather than a tree branch, which you'd just have to hope fits your hands well). Uh.. what? The whip and the scythe are being used in the way they're intended to. They're weapons. No they're not. I'm speaking from a realism perspective, not a "weapons table" perspective. Whips were used for hitting slaves and scaring horses. They were not meant for combat. And scythes were farmer's tools for threshing grain - NOT to be used as weapons. Thus, if used as weapons, they should be considered improvised, as they are not designed for combat. If you want a club to be something that takes some manufacture, you're changing the rules of the game! Yep. But not drastically. It's as simple as "Improvised weapon if it's free - a war-worthy object costs money to be crafted." It's true, the "club" is a little unusual because it encompasses a range of objects that may or may not have been created explicitly for whacking people, but a number of simple weapons can fall into that category as well. Not really. The only simple weapons that aren't true weapons are the club (at least in its "tree branch" form), sickle, and POSSIBLY the quarterstaff (depending on which culture you're using as a base - since in many places the quarterstaff was tooled to be a weapon - but it shouldn't be free in this instance, since it still has to be tooled properly - otherwise it's the same as a long club). But there are more items on the weapons table that shouldn't be considered TRUE weapons. The scythe and the whip.
Keenath 05-05-05, 03:26 PM	I imagine the club would be better balanced, and tooled especially to be gripped by hands (rather than a tree branch, which you'd just have to hope fits your hands well).Well, that's what we call a MASTERWORK club. Something like a policeman's club or a small baseball bat. And honestly, I don't know how even that could qualify for a 300 GP cost. Maybe it's made out of some rare wood.
Vahenir 05-05-05, 03:31 PM	Well, that's what we call a MASTERWORK club. Something like a policeman's club or a small baseball bat. And honestly, I don't know how even that could qualify for a 300 GP cost. Maybe it's made out of some rare wood. Well a billy club would be a tonfa (A&EG, OA). A small baseball bat is still a baseball bat - more a tool than weapon. I'm not saying the line isn't blurred, it definitely is. I imagine most clubs would actually be 'improvised weapons' by the definition of "improvised." They're never really meant to be weapons. A club designed for combat is no more masterwork than a sword - which is inherently designed for combat. Or a flail, which is just a military -version- of a tool that is not designed for combat.
Aubri 05-05-05, 03:36 PM	I imagine the club would be better balanced, and tooled especially to be gripped by hands (rather than a tree branch, which you'd just have to hope fits your hands well). Well, okay, whatever you like--but I call that a masterwork club. No they're not. I'm speaking from a realism perspective, not a "weapons table" perspective. Whips were used for hitting slaves and scaring horses. They were not meant for combat. And scythes were farmer's tools for threshing grain - NOT to be used as weapons. Thus, if used as weapons, they should be considered improvised, as they are not designed for combat. That's why the whip does 1d2 nonlethal and the scythe is "strengthened for combat". A farmer's scythe or sickle would indeed be improvised. The only simple weapons that aren't true weapons are the club (at least in its "tree branch" form), sickle, and POSSIBLY the quarterstaff (depending on which culture you're using as a base - since in many places the quarterstaff was tooled to be a weapon - but it shouldn't be free in this instance, since it still has to be tooled properly - otherwise it's the same as a long club). A long kitchen knife or cleaver isn't significantly different from a dagger. Any appropriately sized pole is a quarterstaff. An improvised dagger would be a rather inappropriate cutting implement, like a pair of scissors, a shiv, or some other-purposed sharp-edged tool. An improvised quarterstaff is a fresh-cut, not-quite-straight tree branch or a 2-by-4. Simple weapons ARE simple because they're easy to make and easy to use. I think you've got a slight disconnect between 'free' and 'improvised'. All the items I suggest as non-improvised clubs are still manufactured for some other purpose in which clublike properties are desirable. A suggestion--if you want to make it harder to go pick up a clublike tree branch, make it a DC 12 Craft (Weaponsmithing) check just like crafting any other simple weapon. The target is, say, 1 sp, so once you find an appropriate branch, you simply take some time to cut it off and smooth off the edges. Dividing the value of the item (10 cp) by the daily result of a minimal successful check (144 cp) times 8 hours means it'll take about a half hour and you have your new club. A higher result will decrease that time.
Bluebrush 05-05-05, 03:37 PM	In the PHB the scythe and sickle are intended to be a specially made weapon, strengthened for war. You can't run up to a farmer, grab one out of his hands and use it as a practical weapon. I used the same idea for my Crowbar-mace. (I've often wondered why they made the scythe a martial weapon. Seems to me with a higher damage die it would make an almost iconic exotic weapon.) Also, I think the Exotic Weapon feat for the whip indicates training to use it as a proper weapon, rather than just knowing how to crack it in the general direction of east targets. On the club issue, I would generally allow someone to use anything appropriately blunt and club shaped as a club, though if they were going to hang onto it and use it for a long time I'd require them to do some basic whittling to make it into something comfortable to hold. What can be used as a club and what's an improvised weapon is a case by case DM call I'd say. A baseball bat is a good club, a rolling pin you can get away with in an emergency, but an encyclopedia is too light and unwieldly.
Keenath 05-05-05, 04:12 PM	A long kitchen knife or cleaver isn't significantly different from a dagger. Any appropriately sized pole is a quarterstaff. An improvised dagger would be a rather inappropriate cutting implement, like a pair of scissors, a shiv, or some other-purposed sharp-edged tool. An improvised quarterstaff is a fresh-cut, not-quite-straight tree branch or a 2-by-4. Simple weapons ARE simple because they're easy to make and easy to use. Okay, I'd somewhat disagree with this point. A cleaver or kitchen knife are not daggers. A kitchen knife should be an improvised weapon, because they aren't built for use against, y'know, a moving opponent. They're also not really strong enough, usually, to avoid snapping in combat use. A cleaver is more like a handaxe, if you want to give it a weapon designation, but I'd just make it an improvised slashing weapon with a x3 critical.
Keenath 05-05-05, 04:13 PM	This thread has got me thinking. Do you threaten an area when weilding an improvised weapon? Why would anyone fight unarmed if they could threaten and area just by picking up a chair, mug, bottle, or flowerpot?
Callahan 05-05-05, 11:28 PM	This thread has got me thinking. Do you threaten an area when weilding an improvised weapon? Why would anyone fight unarmed if they could threaten and area just by picking up a chair, mug, bottle, or flowerpot? well that's why people grab half broken beer bottles during bar fights.
Keenath 05-06-05, 11:38 AM	well that's why people grab half broken beer bottles during bar fights. I thought they did that so they could shiv you. :D
Aubri 05-06-05, 03:44 PM	Okay, I'd somewhat disagree with this point. A cleaver or kitchen knife are not daggers. A kitchen knife should be an improvised weapon, because they aren't built for use against, y'know, a moving opponent. They're also not really strong enough, usually, to avoid snapping in combat use. A cleaver is more like a handaxe, if you want to give it a weapon designation, but I'd just make it an improvised slashing weapon with a x3 critical. Well, if I may step outside D&D for a moment, d20 Modern offers stats for various common weaponlike items such as cleavers. A cleaver is a slashing shortsword, a straight razor is a slashing dagger, and the club entry says "Almost anything can be used as a club. This entry represents a policeman's wooden nightstick." (Tonfas are listed seperately.)
Vahenir 05-06-05, 04:22 PM	This entry represents a policeman's wooden nightstick." (Tonfas are listed seperately.) That's retarded.. a billy club -is- a tonfa. They're even taught to use them the same way. Eh. To be honest, I have no -real- problem with the club in D&D. As a matter of fact, I usually leave it unchanged in my games for simplicity's sake. All I'm saying is that - D&D claims anything not made to be a weapon is an improvised weapon - yet you can use a tree branch as a normal weapon - it's not considered improvised. That makes absolutely no -logical- sense. What's the point of even having improvised weapon rules if I can grab virtually anything off the ground and treat it as a club? Table legs, stereo, lamps, whatever. I'm just saying that the club in D&D seems to contradict the entire reason for 'improvised weapon' rules for any bludgeoning weapon.
Keenath 05-06-05, 04:30 PM	Thank you, yes... A tonfa is a modern police club. The long thing with a pependicular handle a quarter of the way down! To be fair, they may be referring to the sort of short baton or bat-like club used by UK Bobbies. Come to think of it, I think that's what a "billy club" is, anyway. Billy = Bobby, or something like that.
Vahenir 05-06-05, 04:52 PM	That's definitely a possibility. Though d20 Modern was written in the U.S. - why would they be referring to English Police without specifying that? And yeah, billy-club properly refers to the club used by English Police, but a lot of times it just references any club carried by any policemen. It's not really correct.. but - it's a slip up a lot of people make - including myself.
Aubri 05-06-05, 05:02 PM	That's retarded.. a billy club -is- a tonfa. They're even taught to use them the same way. Eh. In modern police departments, the billy club has almost entirely been replaced by the tonfa, yes. However, this (http://www.civilization.ca/tresors/souvenirs/images/sfobj11a.jpg) is a billy club, ca. 1920. This (http://www.arrowheadtradingpost.com/images/billyclub.jpg) is a modern equivalent. This (http://www.polygema.cz/cz/images/title/tonfatr1.jpg) is a police tonfa. They're used in totally different ways--a club acts as an extension for the arm. A tonfa is held along the arm like this (http://karatedojo.uazone.net/img/hist/tonfa/tonfa%20pr24start.jpg) and protects it while you strike with the short end in a punch or else chop with the whole forearm. I'm just saying that the club in D&D seems to contradict the entire reason for 'improvised weapon' rules for any bludgeoning weapon. Well, only something reasonably club-shaped works as a club, the requirements are just kinda loose. Clubs do lousy damage, so an improvised weapon might be useful if you want to improvise a greatclub or a glaive (sword, pole, duct tape) and it's ultimately a DM call. I wouldn't let someone just pick up any old branch as a club, but if they've got a couple hours to kill in a forest, I see no problem letting them find a sturdy oak cudgel. Edit: "Tonfa" is also fun to say. Tonfa tonfa tonfa.
Keenath 05-06-05, 05:34 PM	A tonfa is held along the arm like this (http://karatedojo.uazone.net/img/hist/tonfa/tonfa%20pr24start.jpg) and protects it while you strike with the short end in a punch or else chop with the whole forearm.Technically true, but most police never actually do that, as far as I've ever seen. They tend to grab it by the end and swing it like a billy club. I wouldn't let someone just pick up any old branch as a club, but if they've got a couple hours to kill in a forest, I see no problem letting them find a sturdy oak cudgel.Why not? Anything relatively hard and straight is a club. Maybe it's not as easy as just picking up the first branch you see, but I don't think it'd take 'a couple hours'. Edit: "Tonfa" is also fun to say. Tonfa tonfa tonfa.Yes it is.