Crowbar [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Crowbar [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Omaha_beach
10-27-04, 06:47 AM No funny stuff, what is a crowbar exactly. I know what it is in the real world (Are there any other worlds than RPG?) but what does it do in D&D? My DM has ruled that every time we hack in a door or smash a chest open, we have to roll damage, but he is not sure what he should do with a crowbar. At first he ruled that it just gave a bonus to open locks, but we were kinda mad about that, so he just gave way and said that we could open doors with it. But in game terms, and with references, what does a crowbar do? Is it like +10 to open locks, does it pry open doors automatically or what? In my real world experience, it kinda works like a skeleton key, unless you are dealing with a safe :-D
So what is it in D&D World terms? Official rulings, pleaz?
Regards
Chrash
Ps. Posted this in the wrong forum btw. before
salamander
10-27-04, 07:04 AM It gives a bonus to Str when trying to force something open. Normally I'd say it multiplies your Str bonus (that's closer to what a crowbar does mechanically), but that'd mean it doesn't do anything for those with average or below Str, which isn't correct. So just a circumstance bonus of +4 or +6 or so to Str when opening doors and lids with it. Not ideal, but the best I can come up with.
Omaha_beach
10-27-04, 07:36 AM Still lack the realism...a really weak person (typical RPG-nerdlike type) can easily pry open a locked door in the real world...thats why crowbars are very common in the thieving business...But it makes a hell of a crackle when you do. In the D&D system, if you are like a 10/+0 type, then with a +2 bonus that it gives in the 3.5. system, you cannot even open a tin box with a copper lock...(perhaps I am overexaggerating, but you catch my drift)...or is it just me who thinks it is way off with only a +2 bonus?
Regards
Chrash
Slate King
10-27-04, 07:44 AM even with that 10 str guy putting all 90 lbs into that door it may not open. I like the idea of the circumstance bonus, however you have to remember that you can keep trying. I have seen the 90 lb weakling using the crowbar, it is tougher to use but given enough time he can get it open.
PS I would also have the crowbar deal maybe one or two pts of damage to anything you use it on. Sometimes the best thing to do with the crowbar is to destroy part of the frame with it.
Omaha_beach
10-27-04, 07:54 AM Now I have to remember the keys instead...sigh...Can you take 20 on a strength check?

Well, it seems that a crowbar isn't that useful at all...

Regards
Chrash
Bluebrush
10-27-04, 08:03 AM Can you take 20 on a strength check?

I'd vote yes, but bear in mind your GM mightn't.

Sometimes this is for a good reason.

Say you're in a dungeon and have a stuck door you want to force open.

You whip out your crowbar and take 2 minutes of grunting and heaving to get it open.

But what if someone hears you and responds inside those 2 minutes? Then you wouldn't be able to get it open.

In this circumstance though, I'd just rule that you'd need to deal with whatever comes along and restart your taking 20.
Ashenai
10-27-04, 08:14 AM Not really a matter of voting. The rules clearly state that you can take 20.

From the SRD:
"When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20."

Naturally, if you're interrupted, you have to start again after dealing with the distraction.
TheBard
10-27-04, 08:19 AM The problem is that you cannot apply normal game mechanics to a crowbar. It works differently from breaking a door or from prying a lock... I'd give it a circumstance bonus on Open Locks, but allow everybody in range a Listen check. The rounds needed to force a door open with a crowbar is determined with a d10 - Str Bonus.
Omaha_beach
10-27-04, 08:29 AM Yeah that's what I thought...that it worked differently from breaking down a door, and from opening a lock...but it seems that it is the one thing the WOTC forgot...because they just give it a +2 strength bonus to prying open things...but is there a DC for prying open things? Isn't the DC for breaking down a door og smashing it open?
Regards
Chrash
salamander
10-27-04, 09:41 AM Not really a matter of voting. The rules clearly state that you can take 20.

From the SRD:
"When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20."

Naturally, if you're interrupted, you have to start again after dealing with the distraction.That's for skills, not for ability checks.
tarkin
10-27-04, 10:50 AM I do not have a lot of respect for a DM says that you can not take 20 for ability checks.

All a Take 20 really represents is a simpler/quicker way of stating:

"I keep trying until I roll a natural 20".

If you won't let a player say "I take 20", all you doing is forcing them to keep rolling the d20 until by sheer chance they get a natural 20.
KaptainKangaroo
10-27-04, 11:30 AM crowbars are considered an added +2 I believe during strength checks when dealing with anything that can be pried. Also count as a normal light mace when in combat. I would think you could get them enhanced if you wanted to increase the odds of opening something.
KaptainKangaroo
10-27-04, 11:35 AM I do not have a lot of respect for a DM says that you can not take 20 for ability checks.

All a Take 20 really represents is a simpler/quicker way of stating:

"I keep trying until I roll a natural 20".

If you won't let a player say "I take 20", all you doing is forcing them to keep rolling the d20 until by sheer chance they get a natural 20.

Generally though, you can't keep rolling some skills. If you are smithing and you screw up the material is wasted. Same with alchemy, etc. If you didn't spot something the first time you aren't gonna spot it the second time. That's the point of rolling. So yes, if you're in a group who refuses to do anything without first rolling a 20 then you mine as well just take all the d20s you want, even though that would take more game time and also allow you to be distracted during the two minutes. Probably even surprised if you're alone.
salamander
10-27-04, 11:36 AM I do not have a lot of respect for a DM says that you can not take 20 for ability checks.
I don't have much respect for people throwing the word around to be insulting. :rolleyes:

Ability checks are different from skill checks. For instance, you should always roll opposed skill checks but the DMG specifically says it's usually better not to roll opposed ability checks - the one with the highest ability mod wins. Many ability checks don't really allow for retries, or carry a penalty for failure - trying to bash in a door with your shoulder but failing isn't exactly a healthy passtime, for instance. For others, taking 20 shouldn't correspond to needing just a couple of minutes, like trying to solve a puzzle: if the character is smart enough, he or she should figure it out sooner or later but not necessarily always as soon as within minutes.

Long story short: I'm not opposed to allowing characters to take 20 on ability checks per se. But the conditions and mechanics are often not (or at least shouldn't be) the same as for taking 20 on skill checks.
mean_liar
10-27-04, 11:48 AM Crowbar: A crowbar it grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Strength checks made for such purposes. If used in combat, treat a crowbar as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a club of its size.

The description is missing the part where they tell you its giving you a +2 bonus to your BREAK CHECK. It has nothing to do with opening locks, it has to do with forcing them open.

See the Portable Ram equipment description for a "Crowbar v2.0". I always give my higher-STR PCs a Masterwork Portable Ram. With a good STR, you can bust down just about any non-magical door with some help.
Gamebird
10-27-04, 12:22 PM See the Portable Ram equipment description for a "Crowbar v2.0". I always give my higher-STR PCs a Masterwork Portable Ram. With a good STR, you can bust down just about any non-magical door with some help.

We have some doors we need to smash down next game. Where can I find the description of a portable ram so I can buy one?
MattB
10-27-04, 12:38 PM We have some doors we need to smash down next game. Where can I find the description of a portable ram so I can buy one?

The equipment chapter of the PHB...
GoodTeletubby
10-27-04, 03:46 PM Generally though, you can't keep rolling some skills. If you are smithing and you screw up the material is wasted. Same with alchemy, etc. If you didn't spot something the first time you aren't gonna spot it the second time.

and that's why you can't take 20 on those skills, but for anything you can repeat again and again immediately with no negative consequences for failure, then you can almost always take 20

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Omaha_beach 10-27-04, 06:47 AM	No funny stuff, what is a crowbar exactly. I know what it is in the real world (Are there any other worlds than RPG?) but what does it do in D&D? My DM has ruled that every time we hack in a door or smash a chest open, we have to roll damage, but he is not sure what he should do with a crowbar. At first he ruled that it just gave a bonus to open locks, but we were kinda mad about that, so he just gave way and said that we could open doors with it. But in game terms, and with references, what does a crowbar do? Is it like +10 to open locks, does it pry open doors automatically or what? In my real world experience, it kinda works like a skeleton key, unless you are dealing with a safe :-D So what is it in D&D World terms? Official rulings, pleaz? Regards Chrash Ps. Posted this in the wrong forum btw. before
salamander 10-27-04, 07:04 AM	It gives a bonus to Str when trying to force something open. Normally I'd say it multiplies your Str bonus (that's closer to what a crowbar does mechanically), but that'd mean it doesn't do anything for those with average or below Str, which isn't correct. So just a circumstance bonus of +4 or +6 or so to Str when opening doors and lids with it. Not ideal, but the best I can come up with.
Omaha_beach 10-27-04, 07:36 AM	Still lack the realism...a really weak person (typical RPG-nerdlike type) can easily pry open a locked door in the real world...thats why crowbars are very common in the thieving business...But it makes a hell of a crackle when you do. In the D&D system, if you are like a 10/+0 type, then with a +2 bonus that it gives in the 3.5. system, you cannot even open a tin box with a copper lock...(perhaps I am overexaggerating, but you catch my drift)...or is it just me who thinks it is way off with only a +2 bonus? Regards Chrash
Slate King 10-27-04, 07:44 AM	even with that 10 str guy putting all 90 lbs into that door it may not open. I like the idea of the circumstance bonus, however you have to remember that you can keep trying. I have seen the 90 lb weakling using the crowbar, it is tougher to use but given enough time he can get it open. PS I would also have the crowbar deal maybe one or two pts of damage to anything you use it on. Sometimes the best thing to do with the crowbar is to destroy part of the frame with it.
Omaha_beach 10-27-04, 07:54 AM	Now I have to remember the keys instead...sigh...Can you take 20 on a strength check? Well, it seems that a crowbar isn't that useful at all... Regards Chrash
Bluebrush 10-27-04, 08:03 AM	Can you take 20 on a strength check? I'd vote yes, but bear in mind your GM mightn't. Sometimes this is for a good reason. Say you're in a dungeon and have a stuck door you want to force open. You whip out your crowbar and take 2 minutes of grunting and heaving to get it open. But what if someone hears you and responds inside those 2 minutes? Then you wouldn't be able to get it open. In this circumstance though, I'd just rule that you'd need to deal with whatever comes along and restart your taking 20.
Ashenai 10-27-04, 08:14 AM	Not really a matter of voting. The rules clearly state that you can take 20. From the SRD: "When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20." Naturally, if you're interrupted, you have to start again after dealing with the distraction.
TheBard 10-27-04, 08:19 AM	The problem is that you cannot apply normal game mechanics to a crowbar. It works differently from breaking a door or from prying a lock... I'd give it a circumstance bonus on Open Locks, but allow everybody in range a Listen check. The rounds needed to force a door open with a crowbar is determined with a d10 - Str Bonus.
Omaha_beach 10-27-04, 08:29 AM	Yeah that's what I thought...that it worked differently from breaking down a door, and from opening a lock...but it seems that it is the one thing the WOTC forgot...because they just give it a +2 strength bonus to prying open things...but is there a DC for prying open things? Isn't the DC for breaking down a door og smashing it open? Regards Chrash
salamander 10-27-04, 09:41 AM	Not really a matter of voting. The rules clearly state that you can take 20. From the SRD: "When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20." Naturally, if you're interrupted, you have to start again after dealing with the distraction.That's for skills, not for ability checks.
tarkin 10-27-04, 10:50 AM	I do not have a lot of respect for a DM says that you can not take 20 for ability checks. All a Take 20 really represents is a simpler/quicker way of stating: "I keep trying until I roll a natural 20". If you won't let a player say "I take 20", all you doing is forcing them to keep rolling the d20 until by sheer chance they get a natural 20.
KaptainKangaroo 10-27-04, 11:30 AM	crowbars are considered an added +2 I believe during strength checks when dealing with anything that can be pried. Also count as a normal light mace when in combat. I would think you could get them enhanced if you wanted to increase the odds of opening something.
KaptainKangaroo 10-27-04, 11:35 AM	I do not have a lot of respect for a DM says that you can not take 20 for ability checks. All a Take 20 really represents is a simpler/quicker way of stating: "I keep trying until I roll a natural 20". If you won't let a player say "I take 20", all you doing is forcing them to keep rolling the d20 until by sheer chance they get a natural 20. Generally though, you can't keep rolling some skills. If you are smithing and you screw up the material is wasted. Same with alchemy, etc. If you didn't spot something the first time you aren't gonna spot it the second time. That's the point of rolling. So yes, if you're in a group who refuses to do anything without first rolling a 20 then you mine as well just take all the d20s you want, even though that would take more game time and also allow you to be distracted during the two minutes. Probably even surprised if you're alone.
salamander 10-27-04, 11:36 AM	I do not have a lot of respect for a DM says that you can not take 20 for ability checks. I don't have much respect for people throwing the word around to be insulting. :rolleyes: Ability checks are different from skill checks. For instance, you should always roll opposed skill checks but the DMG specifically says it's usually better not to roll opposed ability checks - the one with the highest ability mod wins. Many ability checks don't really allow for retries, or carry a penalty for failure - trying to bash in a door with your shoulder but failing isn't exactly a healthy passtime, for instance. For others, taking 20 shouldn't correspond to needing just a couple of minutes, like trying to solve a puzzle: if the character is smart enough, he or she should figure it out sooner or later but not necessarily always as soon as within minutes. Long story short: I'm not opposed to allowing characters to take 20 on ability checks per se. But the conditions and mechanics are often not (or at least shouldn't be) the same as for taking 20 on skill checks.
mean_liar 10-27-04, 11:48 AM	Crowbar: A crowbar it grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Strength checks made for such purposes. If used in combat, treat a crowbar as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a club of its size. The description is missing the part where they tell you its giving you a +2 bonus to your BREAK CHECK. It has nothing to do with opening locks, it has to do with forcing them open. See the Portable Ram equipment description for a "Crowbar v2.0". I always give my higher-STR PCs a Masterwork Portable Ram. With a good STR, you can bust down just about any non-magical door with some help.
Gamebird 10-27-04, 12:22 PM	See the Portable Ram equipment description for a "Crowbar v2.0". I always give my higher-STR PCs a Masterwork Portable Ram. With a good STR, you can bust down just about any non-magical door with some help. We have some doors we need to smash down next game. Where can I find the description of a portable ram so I can buy one?
MattB 10-27-04, 12:38 PM	We have some doors we need to smash down next game. Where can I find the description of a portable ram so I can buy one? The equipment chapter of the PHB...
GoodTeletubby 10-27-04, 03:46 PM	Generally though, you can't keep rolling some skills. If you are smithing and you screw up the material is wasted. Same with alchemy, etc. If you didn't spot something the first time you aren't gonna spot it the second time. and that's why you can't take 20 on those skills, but for anything you can repeat again and again immediately with no negative consequences for failure, then you can almost always take 20