Post/Author/DateTime	Post
finerty 01-04-06, 03:52 PM	if i have a weapon with crit range of (18-20) (its a rapier for my swashbuckler btw) if its keen it becomes (15-20) now if i have improved critical its (12-20) now am i missing something or isn't this a very high crit range and not very hard to achieve is the threat range 12-20
RaspK FOG 01-04-06, 04:13 PM	if i have a weapon with crit range of (18-20) (its a rapier for my swashbuckler btw) if its keen it becomes (15-20) now if i have improved critical its (12-20) now am i missing something or isn't this a very high crit range and not very hard to achieve is the threat range 12-20 That's 3.0e; many people and at least one game designer [inserting whistling smiley here] still use that bit, but 3.5e says that they don't stack, which means that a rapier would still have a 15-20 critical, much like a sword would have a 17-20...
finerty 01-04-06, 04:24 PM	aww
Rhomphaia 01-04-06, 05:35 PM	Mechanically, they do not stack in 3.5, but conceptually Keen and Improved Critical should. However, I do see the reasons why the rules were changed. First off, even if your crit range was 2-20, you still need to actually hit your opponent to threaten a critical. If you can't hit, you certainly can't hit them harder. Therefore, insanely large crit ranges make little or no sense. Also, imagine weapons like picks or scythes with a x4 critical multiplier. If Improved Critical and Keen stacked, then you would have these weapons running a 18-20/x4 critical. Every power gamer and munchkin would be running around using Power Attack and Improved Critical with their Keen scythes. As it is though, a 15-20 threat range is just fine. No real need for a x2 weapon to have a bigger range than that.
ShinAkuma2 01-04-06, 06:16 PM	First off, even if your crit range was 2-20, you still need to actually hit your opponent to threaten a critical. If you can't hit, you certainly can't hit them harder. Therefore, insanely large crit ranges make little or no sense. Oh yeah, it makes no sense to want do double damage with every hit. Who wants that?... :shifty:
Rhomphaia 01-04-06, 06:37 PM	Oh yeah, it makes no sense to want do double damage with every hit. Who wants that?... :shifty: You missed my point entirely. Let's take this example to clear things up. Say a 4th level fighter has a +8 to hit with his +1 keen scimitar. The scimitar's threat range is 15-20. Let's say he comes up against against a foe with a 25 AC. He still needs a natural 17 or higher to hit his opponent. Even if his d20 to hit roll comes up a 15 or 16, he does not threaten a critical because he does not hit the opponent in the first place. Also, he will need to roll high to confirm the critical threat, so extra damage is not guaranteed. There really just is no use for a threat range beyond a 15-20. It is just redundant and useless pecker waving.
Rtb 01-04-06, 07:11 PM	I understand that it makes weapons too powerfull when stacked but that doesnt mean they shouldn't. A limited stack (synergy) works well. Not to mention stacking more than one is a no-no.
Plothos 01-04-06, 08:52 PM	You missed my point entirely. Let's take this example to clear things up. Say a 4th level fighter has a +8 to hit with his +1 keen scimitar. The scimitar's threat range is 15-20. Let's say he comes up against against a foe with a 25 AC. He still needs a natural 17 or higher to hit his opponent. Even if his d20 to hit roll comes up a 15 or 16, he does not threaten a critical because he does not hit the opponent in the first place. Also, he will need to roll high to confirm the critical threat, so extra damage is not guaranteed. There really just is no use for a threat range beyond a 15-20. It is just redundant and useless pecker waving.In those instances where you only hit on a 17-20, yes adding the extra crit range won't help you, but fighters going up against the enemies generally appropriate to their level will usually, at least with their primary attack, need in the neighborhood of 10 or 12 (if not less), so very often the extra crit range will make a difference. It starts to lose importance as your iterative attacks require higher and higher rolls, but it's not like adding extra threat range is silly. It may be for a wizard or the like, but certainly not for fighters. What I don't like about big threat ranges is that if you need a 17 to hit, every time you do any damage at all there's a chance of critting. Granted, you have to confirm, and it'll be that much harder against a high AC, but always having the possibility seems wrong to me. Just a minor gripe, though. :rolleyes:
Kresalak 01-04-06, 09:04 PM	8 levels of Disciple of Dispater triples the threat range, and it says it stacks with keen and Improved Critical. That gives you a 9-20 crit range.
TienFong 01-04-06, 09:15 PM	Has there been an errata or update on the Ninja-to from OA?? since it states that it has a threat range of 19-29/x2 ... so if say Improve critical or keen was used the threat range would now be 8-29/x2??
Sae Cael Oanar 01-04-06, 09:17 PM	18 - 20 doubled is 15 - 20. 15 - 20 doubled is 9 - 20. if that prc does what you say it does, your crit range becomes -3 - 20.
Kresalak 01-04-06, 09:34 PM	No, tripled on an 18-20 weapon does this: 15-20 12-20 Add Improved Critical or keen to that and it becomes 9-20.