Crusader Manuevers out of Combat? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Crusader Manuevers out of Combat? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SuperTonne
05-31-07, 01:16 AM I have kind of a simple question, but can't find the answer in the book. Can cursaders initiate maneuvers outside of combat, or are they only granted moves when a fight starts? Well, warblades and swordsages too, as they get their moves 'every encounter'.

What if I want to mountain hammer a door or use sudden leap or something.

Maybe this is silly, but if you can use moves out of combat, could I use a crusader strike on any 'target' (like a rat or a spider) to heal?:D

Also, how do I know when an 'encounter' stars for granted maneuvers? If I'm talking to a guard incognito, and as a CE crusader decide to foehammer him rather than negotiate, do I have to rely on granted maneuvers or can I pick anything (being 'out of combat')

Thank you!
Neutronium_Dragon
05-31-07, 01:28 AM All three of them are set up to have their maneuvers granted/readied at the start of an encounter. It isn't specifically required that combat be going on, and as such they can make use of their maneuvers out of combat too, as long as there's some kind of encounter occurring.

In general, if they've got cause to use something like Mountain Hammer or Sudden Leap, it's probably safe to assume that an encounter has started.

As for the crusader, they'd start being granted maneuvers as soon as an encounter begins, even if nothing is happening which immediately requires that they smite someone. In practice it's probably easier to only start checking for which ones are granted when something of significance actually occurs, or at the very least if they actively want to start using their maneuvers. (But keep in mind that if the encounter has been going on for more than one round, they might have counters available if a situation suddenly comes up where one of those might apply; at that point you'd better check for which ones are granted before you resolve the event.)
SuperTonne
05-31-07, 01:35 AM Ok, so when nothing is really happening, I can do whatever move I want to start off with, like if I want to surprise a guy with crusader strike before an actual rumble starts, or if I want to mountain hammer down a door to break into a house.

Then I would be granted two moves, since the 'encounter' has begun, and go from there?

Or are you saying that if I want to break down a door or hit a guy, I have to roll my two manuevers for the round, and if I don't get what I want, have to stand there or keep talking for six seconds until I get it?
Neutronium_Dragon
05-31-07, 01:37 AM Pretty much, yes. The crusader isn't limited to being reactive and only getting maneuvers when someone else starts taking shots at him; he can be the one to start things if he wants to. ;)
SuperTonne
05-31-07, 01:39 AM Ok, thank you. That helps alot, it lets me lead with whatever manuever I want instead of hoping I get something useful in round one.
Neutronium_Dragon
05-31-07, 02:29 AM You still have to wait for the granted maneuvers to come up normally, but assuming that there's no time pressure before the action begins you can probably just wait it out (it's not going to take more than 2-3 rounds). Hence, Mountain Hammering a door might take a few moments longer, but you will get the maneuver eventually.

If you decide to attack someone then there's still the normal surprise round/initiative mechanics, as appropriate. The primary advantage is that if (for example) there's a negotiation going on and you decide that it's time for deeds rather than words, you'll have some maneuvers already granted by that point (since there was obviously an encounter going on, it just hadn't turned to combat yet).

On the other hand, if you just randomly attack someone in the street then there wasn't really an encounter happening before that point; you'll be granted maneuvers normally at the start of your turn.
InkBlot
05-31-07, 02:37 AM Maybe this is silly, but if you can use moves out of combat, could I use a crusader strike on any 'target' (like a rat or a spider) to heal?:D
No. Crusader Strike only works if the target is a credible threat. It has to be something with a CR around your level. As cool as it might be to have an evil crusader who heals herself by punching babies and kicking puppies, it just doesn't work that way.
fatal error
05-31-07, 12:22 PM I disagree that a Crusader should be able to be gaining maneuvers granted while just talking with someone he might end up in combat with. That allows him to have all his maneuvers granted at the start of any combat he's not surprised by. Which, in my opinion, is contrary to the Crusader's style.

Rather, I think that if the Crusader is getting a surprise round (there was a lengthy thread on whether initiating combat during negotiations should give surprise rounds on the DM board) he may choose any maneuver, just as if he was out of combat. Then he is granted 2 maneuvers as the encounter just started. This allows the Crusader to still preemptively strike, but also not always want to wait a couple rounds to charge up all his maneuvers before a combat, and not force him to wait a couple rounds before the fighting starts to get the right maneuver to lead off with.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SuperTonne 05-31-07, 01:16 AM	I have kind of a simple question, but can't find the answer in the book. Can cursaders initiate maneuvers outside of combat, or are they only granted moves when a fight starts? Well, warblades and swordsages too, as they get their moves 'every encounter'. What if I want to mountain hammer a door or use sudden leap or something. Maybe this is silly, but if you can use moves out of combat, could I use a crusader strike on any 'target' (like a rat or a spider) to heal?:D Also, how do I know when an 'encounter' stars for granted maneuvers? If I'm talking to a guard incognito, and as a CE crusader decide to foehammer him rather than negotiate, do I have to rely on granted maneuvers or can I pick anything (being 'out of combat') Thank you!
Neutronium_Dragon 05-31-07, 01:28 AM	All three of them are set up to have their maneuvers granted/readied at the start of an encounter. It isn't specifically required that combat be going on, and as such they can make use of their maneuvers out of combat too, as long as there's some kind of encounter occurring. In general, if they've got cause to use something like Mountain Hammer or Sudden Leap, it's probably safe to assume that an encounter has started. As for the crusader, they'd start being granted maneuvers as soon as an encounter begins, even if nothing is happening which immediately requires that they smite someone. In practice it's probably easier to only start checking for which ones are granted when something of significance actually occurs, or at the very least if they actively want to start using their maneuvers. (But keep in mind that if the encounter has been going on for more than one round, they might have counters available if a situation suddenly comes up where one of those might apply; at that point you'd better check for which ones are granted before you resolve the event.)
SuperTonne 05-31-07, 01:35 AM	Ok, so when nothing is really happening, I can do whatever move I want to start off with, like if I want to surprise a guy with crusader strike before an actual rumble starts, or if I want to mountain hammer down a door to break into a house. Then I would be granted two moves, since the 'encounter' has begun, and go from there? Or are you saying that if I want to break down a door or hit a guy, I have to roll my two manuevers for the round, and if I don't get what I want, have to stand there or keep talking for six seconds until I get it?
Neutronium_Dragon 05-31-07, 01:37 AM	Pretty much, yes. The crusader isn't limited to being reactive and only getting maneuvers when someone else starts taking shots at him; he can be the one to start things if he wants to. ;)
SuperTonne 05-31-07, 01:39 AM	Ok, thank you. That helps alot, it lets me lead with whatever manuever I want instead of hoping I get something useful in round one.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-31-07, 02:29 AM	You still have to wait for the granted maneuvers to come up normally, but assuming that there's no time pressure before the action begins you can probably just wait it out (it's not going to take more than 2-3 rounds). Hence, Mountain Hammering a door might take a few moments longer, but you will get the maneuver eventually. If you decide to attack someone then there's still the normal surprise round/initiative mechanics, as appropriate. The primary advantage is that if (for example) there's a negotiation going on and you decide that it's time for deeds rather than words, you'll have some maneuvers already granted by that point (since there was obviously an encounter going on, it just hadn't turned to combat yet). On the other hand, if you just randomly attack someone in the street then there wasn't really an encounter happening before that point; you'll be granted maneuvers normally at the start of your turn.
InkBlot 05-31-07, 02:37 AM	Maybe this is silly, but if you can use moves out of combat, could I use a crusader strike on any 'target' (like a rat or a spider) to heal?:D No. Crusader Strike only works if the target is a credible threat. It has to be something with a CR around your level. As cool as it might be to have an evil crusader who heals herself by punching babies and kicking puppies, it just doesn't work that way.
fatal error 05-31-07, 12:22 PM	I disagree that a Crusader should be able to be gaining maneuvers granted while just talking with someone he might end up in combat with. That allows him to have all his maneuvers granted at the start of any combat he's not surprised by. Which, in my opinion, is contrary to the Crusader's style. Rather, I think that if the Crusader is getting a surprise round (there was a lengthy thread on whether initiating combat during negotiations should give surprise rounds on the DM board) he may choose any maneuver, just as if he was out of combat. Then he is granted 2 maneuvers as the encounter just started. This allows the Crusader to still preemptively strike, but also not always want to wait a couple rounds to charge up all his maneuvers before a combat, and not force him to wait a couple rounds before the fighting starts to get the right maneuver to lead off with.