Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mindolin 10-24-07, 05:35 PM	Okay, first off, yes it's from Naruto, but just look at it and see if it's balanced as an item first. I frankly do not care if you don't want anime in your D&D. I accept that, but it wouldn't BE in your D&D unless you allow it in. Cursed Seal The Cursed Seal is a powerful tool of evil. It allows the use of two abilities, each once per day. The first power, appropriately enough, known as the First Stage, and it grants a +4 bonus to Strength and Dexterity checks. In all other ways, the First Stage is equivalent to the psionic power Animal Affinity at manifester level 8. The second power, and Second Stage of the seal's activation, is the ability to turn into a Half-Fiend creature, as per the spell Greater Visage of the Deity, except that it allows only half-fiend creatures, and the type of Half-Fiend is chosen upon creation. The item is intelligent, with Int and Cha of 13, and Wis 10, communicates via empathy, has an alignment of Neutral Evil, and can cast Cure Moderate Wounds on the Sealed 3 times per day. The Ego score of this item is 3. Aura: Strong evil, Price:126300 gp. What do you all think? Also, when I say type of half-fiend, it is in reference to using the optional rules to make a Half-Balor demon different from a Half-Horned Devil. An example is that Sasuke's Half-Demon form would likely be a Half-Vrock.
Khadmus 10-24-07, 05:43 PM	"Intelligent"? That's a bit vague. What are the item's mental ability scores? Would this apply to Strength-based skill checks and Dexterity-based skills checks? Since it functions "in all other ways" to the psionic power, what are the animal attributes taken on?
Mindolin 10-25-07, 08:48 AM	Okay, sorry, I thought I had put in the scores, what I had was Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 13. It is to the Strength and Dexterity scores, so everything that is dependant on those scores is increased by two for the duration. Really, you don't need to take on any attributes, just have the seal cover the body, and say that its the effect of the power.
Mindolin 10-26-07, 10:09 AM	Okay, anyone else?
mato_hibiki 10-26-07, 02:30 PM	Yeah, I got one. What about the fact that the cursed seal is supposed to eventually KILL the creature it's placed on? Actually, I have more than one. What about 'sealing' the cursed seal? You know what I'm talking about. What about involuntary activation? Alignment changes under the influence of the seal? And lastly... A bonus to intimidate checks while actively using the seal? I mean, c'mon, that's gotta be a given, right?
Mindolin 10-26-07, 04:13 PM	Yeah, I got one. What about the fact that the cursed seal is supposed to eventually KILL the creature it's placed on? Actually, I have more than one. What about 'sealing' the cursed seal? You know what I'm talking about. What about involuntary activation? Alignment changes under the influence of the seal? And lastly... A bonus to intimidate checks while actively using the seal? I mean, c'mon, that's gotta be a given, right? Okay, for the first point, it is not supposed to eventually kill whoever it is on, if that was the case what kind of an idiot is Orochimaru for putting it on the body he was going to try and take. If you are referring to the 10% success rate that was established, maybe gaining it grants negative levels, or something like that. That part is good for story purposes, not so good for rules of a game. Second Point: that could be a sealing technique that grants Protection from Evil, or something else that grants a bonus on saves against mental control, as the Cursed Seal and the Bearer of the Seal are in a contest of wills, as per ego rules, if they do not follow Orochimaru or actively work towards evil. This way, the Restraining Seal is, as Kakashi says, "dependant on Sasuke's will" to keep it in check, as he can automatically fail his save. Third Point: That's why it's an Intelligent item, which has the ability to activate itself. Fourth Point: Ego score on Intelligent item, contest of wills. Fifth Point: It most certainly is NOT a given, as a dragon's much more intimidating than someone with a weird pattern on their skin, and Dragon's don't get a racial bonus on Intimadate checks.
CitiesxOfxThexNight 11-21-07, 10:17 PM	Don't listen to them, I fully understand what you are saying and I think it is brilliant! :) I am going to make Naruto based races myself, starting with Uchiha of course.
Mindolin 11-22-07, 02:44 PM	Thanks, the Uchiha is actually pretty easy, I've got another two feats to represent One and Two Tomoe eyes. Haven't finished Mangekyou yet, so that still needs to be done. And why should I listen to them? One of them tried to poke holes in my work, and yet I showed where what I've done covers it.
Suspect_Unusual 11-22-07, 04:30 PM	Okay, for the first point, it is not supposed to eventually kill whoever it is on, if that was the case what kind of an idiot is Orochimaru for putting it on the body he was going to try and take. If you are referring to the 10% success rate that was established, maybe gaining it grants negative levels, or something like that. That part is good for story purposes, not so good for rules of a game. No, it WAS supposed to kill whoever it was put on who used it's power too much. That's given in the story, and not only is the success rate of implantation a low 10%, death after implantation (if you use it for too long a period, especially the 2nd level) was a possibility given in a warning to Sasuke before the seal was empowered to 2nd level. Orochimaru and his henchmen should know the effects of the Cursed Seal, i think. That you don't want to incorporate the facts as related by the story means you aren't making a faithful representation of Naruto's Cursed Seal, which is perfectly fine... just don't try to pass it off as a faithful representation without having mechanics that can lead to the user's death. Personally, I agree that the mechanics SHOULDN'T be added, since such a Cursed Seal wouldn't do much to actually control the character granted the power, but WOULD be an incredibly effective Death effect. Just don't pass off your Cursed Seal as a faithful representation, it's bad policy.
mato_hibiki 11-22-07, 06:11 PM	So making informed insights based on contextual material is a bad thing now? (Man, too many big words for my taste there... But, if I used short words, I'd sound insulting like I usually do.) What Suspect_Unusual said. Really, instead of making is an intelligent item, why not just have the character in question making will saves whenever he or she gets too emotional? Cuts down on half the bookkeeping needed. I find it funny that you bring up a dragon as an example, then forget that whole 'aura of fear' thing they have... Do you honestly think a small bonus to intimidate checks is so out of place on this thing?
Mindolin 11-23-07, 12:11 AM	So making informed insights based on contextual material is a bad thing now? (Man, too many big words for my taste there... But, if I used short words, I'd sound insulting like I usually do.) What Suspect_Unusual said. Really, instead of making is an intelligent item, why not just have the character in question making will saves whenever he or she gets too emotional? Cuts down on half the bookkeeping needed. I find it funny that you bring up a dragon as an example, then forget that whole 'aura of fear' thing they have... Do you honestly think a small bonus to intimidate checks is so out of place on this thing? Read up on Aura of Fear. It does nothing for Intimidation. All it does is frighten the enemy, not provide a bonus on Intimidate. I have forgotten nothing, but a medium dragon is no more intimidating than a regular person, once you take the Aura of Fear out of the picture. Actually, while the First Seal doesn't provide a bonus on Intimidation, the Second Seal does. It's called a boost to Charisma. Anyone bother noting how Half Fiends, despite being quite freaky looking, don't have a bonus on Intimidate checks? While I will not grant a bonus on it, I will likely grant a Circumstance bonus on the Intimidate checks, but I don't have a good place to put it in at, since the two powers of the Cursed Seal are each spells It's less book keeping to decide when a character gets emotional and use that to determine if the seal activates? I'm sorry, I thought using preexisting methods were preferable to pretty much taking over the player's character. Okay, I was going with what I had known about the Seal and Wikipedia, and apparently skipped the part about where it can kill the user. This actually works to the best, as I can work on it and drop the price based on the Sealed taking 1 point of Wisdom damage for every 10 minutes or so of use. Once it drops to Wisdom 0 then it's permanant, and the Sealed becomes a mindless killer until either killed or healed with a Heal spell. Either do this, or have it cause the Wisdom damage at each activation of the ability. Suspect_Unusual, you want an accurate representation or something that might actually be used in a game? I try and make something that works in game, and is a close representation to the inspiration.
Suspect_Unusual 11-23-07, 02:55 AM	Suspect_Unusual, you want an accurate representation or something that might actually be used in a game? I try and make something that works in game, and is a close representation to the inspiration. Gee, I dunno, what did I say on that subject, oh, 3 posts ago? Personally, I agree that the mechanics SHOULDN'T be added, since such a Cursed Seal wouldn't do much to actually control the character granted the power, but WOULD be an incredibly effective Death effect. Just don't pass off your Cursed Seal as a faithful representation, it's bad policy. Whether you made something that works in the game or not isn't really what I was discussing, just the accuracy of its portrayal of the inspiration. Your suggestion: This actually works to the best, as I can work on it and drop the price based on the Sealed taking 1 point of Wisdom damage for every 10 minutes or so of use. Once it drops to Wisdom 0 then it's permanant, and the Sealed becomes a mindless killer until either killed or healed with a Heal spell. Either do this, or have it cause the Wisdom damage at each activation of the ability. That's interesting, but it actually doesn't make it any more accurate than it was before... First, wisdom dropping to 0 makes you comatose. It's hard to be a mindless killer if you can't act. Second, the effect you describe doesn't kill the subject... which would be exactly what we've been discussing in terms of a lack of faithful representation. It isn't even close - dying is a far cry from being a "mindless killer" (does this entail alignment change? Does one temporarily lose one's intelligence score and become construct-like? Does the subject fall unconscious as per normal wisdom damage rules and wake up a mindless killer?). I realize you're disinclined to add a "if you use the secondary ability X times (or for X minutes, or whatever), you die", but you aren't accurately representing the Cursed Seal if that isn't in there. Just so you're clear: I don't care that you don't have a 2nd level user potentially die from using the Cursed Seal too long or too much. I'm just making it more obvious to you that you aren't representing the Cursed Seal from Naruto as it is presented in Naruto, and that your "fix" doesn't either. Take this with a grain of salt and either admit you aren't reproducing the Cursed Seal from Naruto, or change the Seal to represent it accurately. Side note: I actually like the idea of using the half-fiend template with different sources providing different abilities (Ala half-vrock granting flying, or whatever). Where does one find such variants?
mato_hibiki 11-23-07, 03:06 PM	You still didn't answer my question. "Do you honestly think a small bonus to intimidate checks is so out of place on this thing?" You have seen the series, right? Or read the manga at the very least, right? Please tell me you're not just picking this all up from a wiki.
Mindolin 11-24-07, 12:06 AM	I have seen the series, I read the manga, and nowhere does ANYONE mention that a user of the Seal is more intimidating than before, just that it's kind of strange that something's growing on their skin. You're right I'm disinclined to do that, because while it draws Chakra out, it doesn't kill you, otherwise Sasuke would have died in the fight against Naruto, or in the fight against Orochimaru, or when he goes to the Lab, as he has used it extensively in all three instances. We have no proof that it does kill, just that it's supposed to kill. Have we seen ONE person die from overuse of the seal? No, once we do, then I will add it.
Suspect_Unusual 11-24-07, 01:29 AM	You're right I'm disinclined to do that, because while it draws Chakra out, it doesn't kill you, otherwise Sasuke would have died in the fight against Naruto, or in the fight against Orochimaru, or when he goes to the Lab, as he has used it extensively in all three instances. We have no proof that it does kill, just that it's supposed to kill. Have we seen ONE person die from overuse of the seal? No, once we do, then I will add it. You're... kidding. You are aware that drawing chakra out of one's body, especially extensive amounts of chakra, ESPECIALLY amounts of chakra that the body simply cannot supply, can seriously injure, or, oh, KILL ninja who do so? You are aware that the 2nd level of the Cursed Seal is described as using incredibly high amounts of chakra, right, by both the elite Sound ninja AND Orochimaru? Are you? Did you put your hand on a Stovetop set to 10 11 before you believed that stovetops can burn human flesh or something? Side note: Of course Sasuke didn't die. He's a main freakin' character in a long-running Anime, and worse, he's a bishounen with a fanbase. They wouldn't kill Sasuke if he was impaled a hundred times by needles through every single skin pore he has... oh wait, that DID happen, and he DIDN'T DIE.
mato_hibiki 11-24-07, 01:39 AM	Nobody NEEDS to say that a cursed seal user is more intimidating... As well, they ARE. Unless of course, you'd like to disregard the character's reactions to the change. Then, yeah, nothing said about it at all. :rolleyes: Yeah, of course it didn't kill the character, it's bad for sales if you kill off one of the main characters in a punkish way like that. Plus, well, the fact that 75% of the storyline is based around that particular character... "No proof that it does kill"? Ok, so, when Orochimaru, creator of the cursed seal, who put in on Sasuke, who has used it on several test subjects... The guy who's in position to know EVERYTHING about the seal, says specifically that there's a 90% fatality rate, he's just talking out his ass, right? Then there's the fact that the sound five, Orochimaru's cursed seal squad, told Sasuke that if he used the seal too much, and it grew to cover his entire body, he'd die. Are they LYING too? They didn't even mention a mortality rate, they flat out said HE. WOULD. DIE. Wanna ignore that stuff? 'Kay... Whatever.... NINJA EDIT - Damn you suspect, sneakig in a post while I was typing... Were you looking over my shoulder or something? Yours is eerily familiar...
Qube 11-24-07, 04:37 AM	Yeah, of course it didn't kill the character, it's bad for sales if you kill off one of the main characters in a punkish way like that. Plus, well, the fact that 75% of the storyline is based around that particular character... on the up-note: the same is for PCs ... and personally, I'dd use beserker sword stats, you can opt to use it, but beware if you do ....
Mindolin 11-24-07, 11:05 AM	"No proof that it does kill"? Ok, so, when Orochimaru, creator of the cursed seal, who put in on Sasuke, who has used it on several test subjects... The guy who's in position to know EVERYTHING about the seal, says specifically that there's a 90% fatality rate, he's just talking out his ass, right? We've been over this, the 90 % fatality rate is not from using this seal, it's from the original application of the seal. I am well aware that using chakra can kill you, despite how no one has, from the low level mooks running around, Pein summoning a few dozen things, Neji going jyuuken on everything he faces. Fact is, that until someone dies, it's just a theory. And I was not simply talking about Sasuke dying from the Cursed Seal. Jirobo, Tayuya, Kidomaru, Sakon and Ukon, the many unnamed Cursed Seal level 2 prisoners in Orochimaru's lab. Even Kimmimaro, they all used it without the fear of dying, and Kimmimaro even had to be taken off of life support to go out and get Sasuke. Look at Jugo, he's done the equivalent of activating the Cursed Seal every few hours at most, and he's still healthy. I may be in the minority, but I didn't find Cursed Seal Sasuke any more intimidating than regular Sasuke, and since there is no mechanical benefit to changing how you look, I would say he doesn't get the bonus. Consider how full of "magic" the Naruto world is: is someone who can get a pattern to flow across his skin any more intimidating than someone who can pull a bone sword out his back and cut you to death? Yeah, the Cursed Seal doesn't draw your chakra out and kill you in this representation, mostly because how do you represent it? Constitution doesn't control spell casting, so that's not the right score. I think I got it though, it increases the ability of the user to mold chakra, so put in something like the Overchannel feat, and that will work. It will drive the price of an already expensive item up, but would that be suitable? The way you people want it would work better in the Star Wars game, where using the Force takes Vitality points.
Suspect_Unusual 11-24-07, 07:08 PM	I am well aware that using chakra can kill you, despite how no one has...Fact is, that until someone dies, it's just a theory. Are you really aware? What do you think Kimmimaro died from, exactly? Kimmimaro uses his birthright ninjitsu technique, molding tremendous amounts of his chakra to form a huge field of bone spears and travel through it... and dies. Right there. Staring Gaara and Rock Lee in the eye. That prettyboy died from overdrawing chakra, plain and simple. Oh, say, he was in the Cursed Seal's 2nd level, wasn't he? Gee, I wonder if that has ANYTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING. Hell, it's already established that overdrawing chakra can cause serious, serious injury, even if it doesn't prevent you from continuing to fight. Remember when Kakashi first shows us his Sharingan in his fight against the ex-Water country jounin? Remember what happens after that fight, when the expending of chakra finally caught up to Kakashi? One of the most powerful, skillful, tactical jounin in Leaf Village was incapable of doing more than hobbling around on crutches for an entire week because he USED TOO MUCH CHAKRA. Continue to argue that the mechanics for such a thing are going to suck, because they would. That's fine. Don't try to argue that "it's only theory that overdrawing chakra will kill you", because going down that path requires you to put your fingers in your ears and shout out "La La La can't hear you!" really loudly, and your neighbors might get annoyed.
Suspect_Unusual 11-24-07, 07:43 PM	For the record, I'm actually going to have to agree that there's no inherit, always-on intimidate bonus for having a Cursed Seal. A DM should certainly be liberal with circumstance bonuses concerning them, however, especially if a foe has seen it in action before.
Mindolin 11-25-07, 01:43 AM	Kimmimaro died because of the reason he was on life support: he had a terminal disease when he went out to fight, and that's what killed him. It had nothing to do with overuse of chakra. Actually, I had forgotten about Kakashi walking around on crutches, I jumped into Naruto at the Chunin exam, and haven't watched much of the earlier episodes, skipping from where Kakashi fights Zabuza the first time to the time they fight the second time. If there is proof, then I will change my opinion. I'm not one of the idiots who demands proof and ignores it once it is given, I'm human and will admit my mistakes. As proof has been offered, I will try and find some way of doing it, though that could easily be a combo of damage he has taken from Zabuza and anything dealt by his use of chakra. Let's face it, it may have been partially from chakra drain, partly from a hard fought battle, wherein he got his rear saved by the untried Genin. I think that it might actually been dexterity damage, as Kakashi was unable to move, but could still talk, and it just doesn't sit well as strength damage. But I don't think that was from overuse of Chakra so much as overuse of the Sharingan, which should be counted seperatly. Kaguya Kimimaro · Killed by: Gaara/Disease · Reasoning: Even though his body was under attack from a fatal disease, Kimimaro went to ensure Sasuke's safe delivery to Orochimaru. During Kimimaro's fight with Rock Lee, Gaara came and fought Kimimaro until he could no longer resist the disease and died.
Suspect_Unusual 11-25-07, 04:01 AM	Kimmimaro died because of the reason he was on life support: he had a terminal disease when he went out to fight, and that's what killed him. It had nothing to do with overuse of chakra. Heheheh... Ha ha ha... HAHAHAHAHHAHA. Yeah, I'm done with this thread. Have fun. Edit: Why am I laughing? You're assuming that instead of succumbing to EXACTLY WHAT EVERYONE IN THE ANIME WARNS ABOUT, that is using every ounce of chakra and completely draining the body, Kimmimaro succumbs to a terminal disease in the middle of a fight. You've stretched so thin, you're transparent.
Qube 11-25-07, 04:43 AM	Dumb question perhaps, but are you discussing if Orochimaru's Cursed Seal can kill people? Awners: "As far as anyone knows: yes" (1) its an anime show, and in there everyone who talks/thinks/... about the fatality of the seal, says it's deadly (2) nobody outside the show (the artists, scriptwriters, ...) says or hints that it isn't deadly Fact is, if you don't believe that is proof, then what would be? Anyone with a cursed seal that dies, could yust have died from, lets say a mysterious unknown desease that the medical ninja's can't figure out ... Why in heavons blazes would the seal not be deadly? - Because what, we met 6 guys (sound5+sasuke) who didn't die of it? Orochimaru has no problem sacreficing hundreds of men, yust for summoning. He's the bad guy. using techniques that low successrate is what they do ... - Becuase Orochimaru gives the seal to a body he plans on taking over? As in, if the body is not strong enough to support the seal, it was a crappy body to begin with + and its a smart way for Orochimaru to get the power of the seal, without needing to risk fatality? according to wikipedia "The seals work by forcibly drawing chakra from the user's body, giving the user a chakra capacity beyond what they would normally be capable of, as well as increased physical performance as a result of the increased chakra capacity." ... isn't their a psionic feat that allows you to drain stats for powerpoints?
Leress 11-25-07, 06:08 AM	isn't their a psionic feat that allows you to drain stats for powerpoints? Yes, it's called Body Fuel.
Mindolin 11-25-07, 01:06 PM	Just about all character profiles I've read give the disease as the reason for his death. The only ones that don't are the ones that leave off a cause of death. Argue about it if you want, but it's not like no one mentioned that he had the disease until after he died, Jugo was wondering why he was going out in his condition to get Sasuke, Kabuto had to take him off life support in order for him to go out in the first place, there is a reason Orochimaru didn't take his body instead of some no name while waiting for Sasuke to come to him. Let's just ignore all that, and sure, he died from chakra use, despite the facts. You say that since he died in Cursed Seal level 2, he must have died from the Cursed Seal. By that logic, Tayuya died from the Cursed Seal, not half a forest being dropped on her, Sakon and Ukon died from the Seal, not the pointy bits of Kankuro's puppets, etc. Body Fuel works, but isn't much help for what I'm looking for, as my Naruto characters use mostly magic, not psionics. Still, I think that something like that, something that works for Arcane and Divine magic, would be appropriate.