Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Saurixen 04-21-08, 02:27 PM	I know I got these prices right, but the DM wants a second opinion before he'll allow these. Boots of Hauling A**: Use-activated Haste item, caster level 5. By SRD pricing rules: Spell Level(3) x Caster level(5) x 2000 = 30,000 x spell duration modifier(4) = 120,000 / Uses per day(5) = 24,000 total. The boots grant Haste five times a day, five round duration each time. I didn't like the standard boots and wabnted to make a version that worked for me. Psionic Shotgun: Command word activated Energy Cone Item, non-augmented, manifester level 5. By SRD pricig rules: Power level(3) x Manifester level(5) x 1800 = 27,000 Pick your energy type and blast all day long. 60-foot cone, 5d6 damage. Very worth it, IMO. So, did I get the math right?
Mahali Audran 04-21-08, 03:51 PM	The boots are close. I'd probably go with 30k As for your shot gun. Circlet of Blasting, Minor On command, this simple golden headband projects a blast of searing light (3d8 points of damage) once per day. Faint evocation; CL 6th; Craft Wondrous Item, searing light; Price 6,480 gp. Circlet of Blasting, Major On command, this elaborate golden headband projects a blast of searing light (5d8 maximized for 40 points of damage) once per day. Strong evocation; CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, Maximize Spell, searing light; Price 23,760 gp. So for what you want... you're looking at a few hundred thousand. You want to go from once per day to at will and from 3d8 to a 5d6 cone. 350,000-400,000?
RequiemOfReason 04-21-08, 04:04 PM	So for what you want... you're looking at a few hundred thousand. You want to go from once per day to at will and from 3d8 to a 5d6 cone. 350,000-400,000? True, this item would be considerably more cost effective than circlets of blasting. However, there are several items in the Magic Item Compendium with may render that obsolete This includes one that creates a 10d6 fireball once per day, as well as 2d6 sonic damage, knockback, and a potential to deafen its victims. For 8,000 gp. I'd still price it well above 27,000 gp, though. Perhaps around 40k-50k.
Merestil Haye 04-21-08, 04:14 PM	I know I got these prices right, but the DM wants a second opinion before he'll allow these. Boots of Hauling A**: Use-activated Haste item, caster level 5. By SRD pricing rules: Spell Level(3) x Caster level(5) x 2000 = 30,000 x spell duration modifier(4) = 120,000 / Uses per day(5) = 24,000 total. The boots grant Haste five times a day, five round duration each time. I didn't like the standard boots and wabnted to make a version that worked for me.Not in my game. For items such as boots, "use-activated" means you put them on. These are not use-activated, they are command-word activated. A command-word-activated item casting Haste is a standard action to use (because casting Haste is a standard action, any item that replicates it takes a standard action to use). The formula is therefore Spell Level * Caster Level * 1,800 = 27,000. Since it's not a continuous or use activated item, the duration modifier does not apply. That gets you a set of boots usable five times per day, for five rounds each use. When applying the factor for the number of charges, the formula is Price / (5/x) where x is the number of daily uses. Alternatively the formula is (x * Price)/5. Since you want five uses per day that means the two factors cancel out. Psionic Shotgun: Command word activated Energy Cone Item, non-augmented, manifester level 5. By SRD pricig rules: Power level(3) x Manifester level(5) x 1800 = 27,000 Pick your energy type and blast all day long. 60-foot cone, 5d6 damage. Very worth it, IMO. So, did I get the math right?As a general principle, I assume that command-word activated items can (by default) be activated five times per day (as per the footnote on the magic item costs table). By the time this item is affordable you're looking at about a 13th level character. At that sort of level, 5d6 per round is not spectacular. The two caveats I would add are :You cannot choose the energy type each use. The energy type is chosen when crafting the item, and cannot be changed thereafter. If I allowed you to choose sonic energy at all, the item deals d4's of damage and not d6s.Hope that helps a little.
Mahali Audran 04-21-08, 04:25 PM	A +5 weapon is 50,000GP. This is a 60' cone doing 5d6 once per round with a save DC of 15. I believe it's worth way more than 50k. It's worth substantially more than 10d6 fireball once per day.
Merestil Haye 04-21-08, 04:41 PM	A +5 weapon is 50,000GP. This is a 60' cone doing 5d6 once per round with a save DC of 15. I believe it's worth way more than 50k.Absolutely not. By 15th level it's almost ineffectual. And the save DC is 14 (assuming it gets one). DC is 10 + 1½* power level. It's worth substantially more than 10d6 fireball once per day.Yes, it is. Command word activated 3rd level spell at CL 10 usable once per day : 3 * 10 * 1,800 / 5 = 10,800; Reflex save DC14 for ½. Affordable by a high 9th level character. I don't consider that at all overpowered, especially when you consider that the save of a spell cast by a 9th level arcane caster may deal more damage on average owing to a significantly higher saving throw.
Jackmojo 04-21-08, 06:11 PM	I know I got these prices right, but the DM wants a second opinion before he'll allow these. Smart DM, since you got the formula on the boots all wrong. Boots of Hauling A**: Use-activated Haste item, caster level 5. By SRD pricing rules: Spell Level(3) x Caster level(5) x 2000 = 30,000 x spell duration modifier(4) = 120,000 / Uses per day(5) = 24,000 total. The boots grant Haste five times a day, five round duration each time. I didn't like the standard boots and wanted to make a version that worked for me. Merestil already showed the correct formula for what you said you want, but I figured I would show the correct math for what you tried, so you'll have it for the next time, I would also note that Merestil's version should properly cast Haste at CL 5, meaning it could affect 5 targets: Spell Level(3) x Caster level(5) x 2000 = 30,000 x spell duration modifier(4) = 120,000 / Uses per day(5)/5 = 120,000 Mind you this is the same cost as a permanent effect or always on item (i.e. 5 uses per day costs the same under the formulas given as 5 uses per day). Personally I would just go for the Boots of Speed, and ask your DM to let you make them for twice the cost with twice the rounds of use per day (i.e. 24,000 GP for 20 rounds of use, activated as a free action) as this strikes me as quite reasonable and also more inline with the correct approach to item creation (i.e. the formulas are the method of last resort, comparison with existing items is the best choice). Jack
Merestil Haye 04-22-08, 06:12 AM	Merestil already showed the correct formula for what you said you want, but I figured I would show the correct math for what you tried, so you'll have it for the next time, I would also note that Merestil's version should properly cast Haste at CL 5, meaning it could affect 5 targets:Good point. Self-affecting only is worth a reduction in price. Personally I would just go for the Boots of Speed, and ask your DM to let you make them for twice the cost with twice the rounds of use per day (i.e. 24,000 GP for 20 rounds of use, activated as a free action) as this strikes me as quite reasonable and also more inline with the correct approach to item creation (i.e. the formulas are the method of last resort, comparison with existing items is the best choice).That seems fair to me. It's a reasonable comparator.
Scion of Coldshard 04-22-08, 10:28 PM	If you really want haste that comes with a whole lot more than 'move fast'. If you only want to be able to move quickly there are a number of other spells to try to use which would get you there for a drastically reduced price..
risner 04-26-08, 01:21 PM	1) Boots of Hauling A**: Use-activated Haste item, caster level 5. By SRD pricing rules: Spell Level(3) x Caster level(5) x 2000 = 30,000 x spell duration modifier(4) = 120,000 / Uses per day(5) = 24,000 total. The boots grant Haste five times a day, five round duration each time. I didn't like the standard boots and wabnted to make a version that worked for me. Psionic Shotgun: Command word activated Energy Cone Item, non-augmented, manifester level 5. By SRD pricig rules: Power level(3) x Manifester level(5) x 1800 = 27,000 Pick your energy type and blast all day long. 60-foot cone, 5d6 damage. Very worth it, IMO. So, did I get the math right? 1) 10*3/5*2000 = 12000 for 10 rounds a day. For 25 rounds, you need something like this: 10*3/(5/3)*2000 = 36,000 minimum for 30 rounds a day. 2) There is no infinite damage items, at least not ones that deal large amounts of damage. So limit it a number of times a day to get it legal. Otherwise the item is Epic or "too good for Epic". Good point. Self-affecting only is worth a reduction in price. DMG boots of speed trade self effecting for free action activate, but keep the formula the same.
Merestil Haye 04-26-08, 03:10 PM	DMG boots of speed trade self effecting for free action activate, but keep the formula the same.They don't. The price is increased by 11% from the one predicted by the formula (10,800gp). Boots of Speed are command-word activated, not use-activated. The Boots I originally priced (at 27k) cast Haste a number of times daily. That means the wearer could affect up to five creatures per activation of the boots. Thus a set of boots that can affect only the wearer with a Haste spell deserve a reduction.
risner 04-27-08, 09:22 PM	They don't. The price is increased by 11% from the one predicted by the formula (10,800gp). Boots of Speed are command-word activated, not use-activated. Can you make it more clear? Because the boots are activated via swift and not standards.
Merestil Haye 04-28-08, 07:06 AM	Can you make it more clear? Because the boots are activated via swift and not standards.The method of activation of a magic item is one of four; Spell Completion, Spell Trigger, Command or Use-activated. Clearly the Boots are not spell completion or spell trigger items. But neither can they be use-activated. Use-activated boots would be activated in one of two ways. Putting them on, or walking somewhere. Neither method is actually used; therefore the activation method is Command. It simply cannot be use-activated. Pricing an item by the spell effect formula for a 1/day command activated casting of a 3rd level spell at CL10 is 10,800gp. The price of Boots of Speed is 12,000gp. 12,000 / 10,800 = 111% (approximately). Therefore the price of the Boots is 11% more than you would expect from the formula. (It's actually one-ninth more, but I can't be bothered to type out a string of 1s after the decimal point). The type of action used to activate the boots is irrelevant to determining the activation method, and it is the activation method that determines the formula. The Boots trade the ability to affect multiple targets for swift-action activation and a 1,200gp surcharge.
risner 04-28-08, 10:46 AM	Pricing an item by the spell effect formula for a 1/day command activated casting of a 3rd level spell at CL10 is 10,800gp. The price of Boots of Speed is 12,000gp. The type of action used to activate the boots is irrelevant to determining the activation method, and it is the activation method that determines the formula. Well, possibly, but I always thought it was this: 3*5/(5/2)*2,000 =12,000 gp 2/day at CL5 for pricing, but using CL10 since it doesn't change the outcome. As for the type of action used, maybe with the MIC it is no longer a premium. It used to cost significantly more to have faster than the spell activation.
Merestil Haye 04-28-08, 12:35 PM	Well, possibly, but I always thought it was this: 3*5/(5/2)*2,000 =12,000 gp 2/day at CL5 for pricing, but using CL10 since it doesn't change the outcome.Whether it's two activations at CL5 or one activation at CL10, that price would be the same. But the *2,000 factor for use-activated items is completely inappropriate. For an item to be use-activated, it works when you use it - which for boots, means "put on and walk around." That would mean that the power of the Boots works for the first minute they are worn. They must be command-activated. As for the type of action used, maybe with the MIC it is no longer a premium. It used to cost significantly more to have faster than the spell activation.No, even prior to MIC, the benefit was evaluated against the cost. As far as activation goes, they upgraded the activation to a free action in order to compensate for the loss of power of Haste from 3.0. If the Boots had been priced as a seventh-level spell how many people would buy it for the benefit it gives? At 33,000gp?
Jackmojo 04-28-08, 02:20 PM	But the *2,000 factor for use-activated items is completely inappropriate. For an item to be use-activated, it works when you use it - which for boots, means "put on and walk around." That would mean that the power of the Boots works for the first minute they are worn. They must be command-activated. I've always assumed Risner's math was functionally correct, and that they considered "free action" cost equivalent to use activated and then fudged the "divide duration as you wish" being equal to the "ought to affect multiple targets". Jack
risner 04-28-08, 05:30 PM	I've always assumed Risner's math was functionally correct, and that they considered "free action" cost equivalent to use activated and then fudged the "divide duration as you wish" being equal to the "ought to affect multiple targets". Not to mention, I could swear I've seen them describe it this way.
Merestil Haye 04-28-08, 06:43 PM	I've always assumed Risner's math was functionally correct, and that they considered "free action" cost equivalent to use activated... (snip)Think about the implications of that for a minute. A command-word activated item that casts a spell as a swift action that normally takes a standard action costs 10/9 the price of an item that takes a standard action to activate the same number of times per day. So how much is a permanent True Strike item with that precedent? About 20k - if not 10. Thanks, but no thanks.
Jackmojo 04-29-08, 11:40 AM	Think about the implications of that for a minute. So how much is a permanent True Strike item with that precedent? About 20k - if not 10. Thanks, but no thanks. Sure but another precedent overrides the True Strike item (as I'm sure you're well aware): bonus to hit pricing. I'm not sure where you're getting this from though: A command-word activated item that casts a spell as a swift action that normally takes a standard action costs 10/9 the price of an item that takes a standard action to activate the same number of times per day. Where are you deriving the 10/9 pricing for a swift action item from? Which I'm not even sure applies here, since the boots of speed are a special case as I noted above. Jack
Merestil Haye 04-29-08, 12:24 PM	Sure but another precedent overrides the True Strike item (as I'm sure you're well aware): bonus to hit pricing.No, it doesn't. You are missing out that there is a difference between a use-activated item and an item activated with a swft action. A use-activated item takes no additional action to use; therefore a creature using a use-activated item could also benefit from a swift action that round. Because you've moved it from a category of things that are always on to a category of things that need an action to use and cast a spell, use-activated pricing is completely inappropriate. In this case, I'd price the swift action True Strike at will at around 162k (before considering power level). Calling it "equivalent to use activated" means the price would drop to 20k. We both agree that that is too low, I suspect. Where are you deriving the 10/9 pricing for a swift action item from? Which I'm not even sure applies here, since the boots of speed are a special case as I noted above.You are arguing that making an item with a swift action activation that casts a spell is "the equivalent of" use-activation. (Your words from your previous post in this thread). If that's the case, you can use the use-activated price factor instead of the command-activated price factor every time you design an item that casts a spell which is normally a standard action but in this item is a swift action (or even a free action) instead of basing it on a quickened version of the spell, which is four levels higher. Use-activated price factor = 2,000. Command-activated price factor = 1,800. 2,000/1,800 = 10/9.
Jackmojo 04-29-08, 06:20 PM	We both agree that that is too low, I suspect. Of course. You are arguing that making an item with a swift action activation that casts a spell is "the equivalent of" use-activation. (Your words from your previous post in this thread). If that's the case, you can use the use-activated price factor instead of the command-activated price factor every time you design an item that casts a spell which is normally a standard action but in this item is a swift action (or even a free action) instead of basing it on a quickened version of the spell, which is four levels higher. Use-activated price factor = 2,000. Command-activated price factor = 1,800. 2,000/1,800 = 10/9. I gotcha now. I'm not arguing that as a general case, thats just my gut feeling on how the Boots of Speed are priced (based on the math otherwise looking so nice and clean). Thanks for the clarification though. Jack