Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zeratulcraft 11-13-07, 07:43 AM	I'm considering making a special sword for a campaign I'm considering running and would enjoy knowing whether I should even bother pricing it, or if it's in the realms of artifact. Blade of Roaring Flames -Longsword -Instead of dealing normal weapon damage, it deals damage as a Flame Strike at Caster Level 9th, no strength modifier applies. Note, this is not actually casting the spell on an area, but rather channeling it through the blade to have it strike only a single target. -Flame Strike 1/day CL9th. Now, artifact or not? Thanks ZC
Watsyurname529 11-13-07, 07:49 AM	Well let's see here. Flame Strike at 9th Caster Level does 9d6 Fire Damage. So a sword that hits for 9d6 base is already epic. So unless you are going to play Epic, I would just put it at a Minor Artifact.
zeratulcraft 11-13-07, 07:55 AM	Figured as much, thanks.
Gnarl 11-13-07, 08:49 AM	I'm considering making a special sword for a campaign I'm considering running and would enjoy knowing whether I should even bother pricing it, or if it's in the realms of artifact. Blade of Roaring Flames -Longsword -Instead of dealing normal weapon damage, it deals damage as a Flame Strike at Caster Level 9th, no strength modifier applies. Note, this is not actually casting the spell on an area, but rather channeling it through the blade to have it strike only a single target. -Flame Strike 1/day CL9th. Now, artifact or not? Thanks ZC This mostly depends on a few factors: 1) Does spell resistance apply? 2) Can you make multiple attacks? 3) Can you further enchant the item (sword +1, +2, +3, frost, flaming etc...)? 4) Is this attack resolved as a regular melee attack or a touch attack? Now if the answere to these questions is 'Yes', 'Yes', 'No', 'Regular Melee Attack', I would see no problem with it in a high level game (my guess 14+) though it should cost a significant amount of a PC's wealth for its level. I would price it arround 50-80k (1/3 to half a 14th level character's suggested wealth).
Gagnrath 11-13-07, 11:12 AM	I wouldn't classify it as a minor artifact, I call it an expensive bonus and unusual bonus on a normal magic sword. While 9 D6 is alot its not really that hard to get on a normal magic item once per day. +1 great sword. Holy, Flaming, Flaming Surge,Acidic, Acidic Surge, an a crystal of acid assault. Thats 9d6 damage at least 3 times per day, on a +5 weapon with a 4600 gp bonus on it. It'll usually do 7d6+1. (That is with a fairly conseravtive interpratation of the DMG2 some people play that the flaming and and surge ability of the same stack giving each attack while surging 3d6 of elemental damage fo that type.). While I find it to be rare and expensive I can hardly call it an artifact a weapon of the flame strike spell storing that does 9d6 once per day isn't as powerful. Some WoTC publications like the recent Shadowdale adventure seem to have any magic item that has abilities other than those in standard published magic items as minor artifacts.
zeratulcraft 11-13-07, 07:18 PM	This mostly depends on a few factors: 1) Does spell resistance apply? 2) Can you make multiple attacks? 3) Can you further enchant the item (sword +1, +2, +3, frost, flaming etc...)? 4) Is this attack resolved as a regular melee attack or a touch attack? Now if the answere to these questions is 'Yes', 'Yes', 'No', 'Regular Melee Attack', I would see no problem with it in a high level game (my guess 14+) though it should cost a significant amount of a PC's wealth for its level. I would price it arround 50-80k (1/3 to half a 14th level character's suggested wealth). Yeah you've got it right, SR, since it's a channeled spell effect on strike, multiple attacks, no further enchants, and a normal attack. When I was pricing it, I put it on as a 'use-activated' Flame Strike, use being when you hit something, and it came out to about 100k when I threw on a normal flame strike 1/day. But I guess since it's not exactly Flame Strike when you hit something, in that it doesn't hit it's normal area, there's probably a discount involved.
zeratulcraft 11-13-07, 07:20 PM	I wouldn't classify it as a minor artifact, I call it an expensive bonus and unusual bonus on a normal magic sword. While 9 D6 is alot its not really that hard to get on a normal magic item once per day. +1 great sword. Holy, Flaming, Flaming Surge,Acidic, Acidic Surge, an a crystal of acid assault. Thats 9d6 damage at least 3 times per day, on a +5 weapon with a 4600 gp bonus on it. It'll usually do 7d6+1. (That is with a fairly conseravtive interpratation of the DMG2 some people play that the flaming and and surge ability of the same stack giving each attack while surging 3d6 of elemental damage fo that type.). While I find it to be rare and expensive I can hardly call it an artifact a weapon of the flame strike spell storing that does 9d6 once per day isn't as powerful. Some WoTC publications like the recent Shadowdale adventure seem to have any magic item that has abilities other than those in standard published magic items as minor artifacts. Thing is, you use about 3 energy types there, Holy/Fire/Acid, this is just Fire/Divine, and not 3/day, the flame strike on hit is the weapons damage dice, in addition to being able to cast a normal one. I've not read Shadowdale, but it sounds like things are artifact until mages learn to replicate them, at which time they drop to regular +'s.
BarivusTheFearless 11-13-07, 09:18 PM	Thing is, you use about 3 energy types there, Holy/Fire/Acid, this is just Fire/Divine, and not 3/day, the flame strike on hit is the weapons damage dice, in addition to being able to cast a normal one. I've not read Shadowdale, but it sounds like things are artifact until mages learn to replicate them, at which time they drop to regular +'s. I'd have to concur with that. By definition artifacts can't be replicated... correct? So, just one question... can your item be replicated?
zeratulcraft 11-13-07, 10:13 PM	I'd have to concur with that. By definition artifacts can't be replicated... correct? So, just one question... can your item be replicated? I'm inclined to say yes, but perhaps no one knows it can even exist until they've experienced or heard about the weapon somehow. So maybe either see the weapon, or Knowledge (Arcana) some largish DC. And you're free to recreate it, possibly with other forms, Blades of Lightning Bolt or something.
Gnarl 11-14-07, 12:20 AM	Yeah you've got it right, SR, since it's a channeled spell effect on strike, multiple attacks, no further enchants, and a normal attack. When I was pricing it, I put it on as a 'use-activated' Flame Strike, use being when you hit something, and it came out to about 100k when I threw on a normal flame strike 1/day. But I guess since it's not exactly Flame Strike when you hit something, in that it doesn't hit it's normal area, there's probably a discount involved. There was no complicated formula used in my estimation :D. A 14th level character has on average 150,000 gold pieces of equipment. 31 points of damage per attack is a little high for that level but not game breaking, especially since it's never going to work against monsters with spell resistance. 1/3 of your character wealth sounded reasonable.
zeratulcraft 11-14-07, 02:59 AM	Aye, I was thinking that maybe you could increase the + value of the blade, but instead of adding to damage, it adds to to hit (as normal) and SR checks made with the blade.
risner 11-14-07, 03:21 AM	When I was pricing it, I put it on as a 'use-activated' Flame Strike, You can not make a damaging item via use activated. You need to make it command word and limit it to at most two (2) uses per day.
zeratulcraft 11-14-07, 04:23 AM	I'd like you to point me to where it says I can't do that, I read no such entry in the SRD for magic item creation. Nor did I see a limit on that 'charges per day' entry either. It just says 5/charges per day. That could be any number. Even 50, in which case you'd end up with a very large cost.
BarivusTheFearless 11-14-07, 05:49 AM	I'm inclined to say yes, but perhaps no one knows it can even exist until they've experienced or heard about the weapon somehow. So maybe either see the weapon, or Knowledge (Arcana) some largish DC. And you're free to recreate it, possibly with other forms, Blades of Lightning Bolt or something. in short we will have to see what you come up with and trow it to all the epic level magi and the like to see if they can figure it out :)
Gagnrath 11-14-07, 08:31 AM	Being an artifact doesn't make something unique lots o minor artifacts have multiple copies.decks of many things are an example of this are spheres on annihilation. They are rare but not unqiue.
zeratulcraft 11-14-07, 08:46 AM	Being an artifact doesn't make something unique lots o minor artifacts have multiple copies.decks of many things are an example of this are spheres on annihilation. They are rare but not unqiue. Aye, other blades and weaponry will be made similar to this, but yes, very rare. One of the qualities of minor artifacts though, is pricelessness. But as soon as a mage learns how to make a Sphere of Annihilation, I bet they have a price tag attached to them in the wondrous item section.
Captain_Kobold 11-14-07, 08:46 AM	Assuming that its not a touch attack as a Flameblade is, I would price it as a +9 weapon, then tack on the cost of the Flame strike 1/day. Does only a little less damage than a Longsword +1, with +8d6 of extra damage, however, once you factor in crits, the damage is higher. It also strikes as a spell, so ignores Damage reduction. Even on extremely fire-resistant or otherwise invulnerable creatures, it will always do at least half damage. I'd also say that you could not use Power Attack with it. This would place it at the very expensive, but not quite epic level of price.
risner 11-14-07, 09:25 AM	I'd like you to point me to where it says I can't do that, I read no such entry in the SRD for magic item creation. Nor did I see a limit on that 'charges per day' entry either. It just says 5/charges per day. That could be any number. Even 50, in which case you'd end up with a very large cost. If you read the item creation rules, you would see it. Why? Because there is a process to item creation: 1) Look for similar items. 2) Look for items of similar power. 3) Look at this chart with 5/day, continuous, etc. Now, until you can show me a 3/day or more item existing that deals damage, I assert the item creation rules clearly say there can be no items with more than 2 per day activations that deal damage.
zeratulcraft 11-14-07, 10:13 AM	If you read the item creation rules, you would see it. Why? Because there is a process to item creation: 1) Look for similar items. 2) Look for items of similar power. 3) Look at this chart with 5/day, continuous, etc. Now, until you can show me a 3/day or more item existing that deals damage, I assert the item creation rules clearly say there can be no items with more than 2 per day activations that deal damage. Quite simply, I'm asking for you to link me to the SRD entry where it says that precisely. Here, I'll make it easy for you. www.d20srd.org finish off the URL with where I should be reading, please. Now, the guidelines (keep in mind, are just that) are for pricing items that are similar to ones that already exist. Are you saying the rules deliberately curb original thought? Just link me, so we can settle this, please. EDIT : I just read and reread the Creating Magic Items section of the SRD three times, no where does it say what you've said about limiting the /day actions of damage. Nor about the damage can't be use activated, which I notice you didn't actually bring up this time...
zeratulcraft 11-14-07, 10:15 AM	Assuming that its not a touch attack as a Flameblade is, I would price it as a +9 weapon, then tack on the cost of the Flame strike 1/day. Does only a little less damage than a Longsword +1, with +8d6 of extra damage, however, once you factor in crits, the damage is higher. It also strikes as a spell, so ignores Damage reduction. Even on extremely fire-resistant or otherwise invulnerable creatures, it will always do at least half damage. I'd also say that you could not use Power Attack with it. This would place it at the very expensive, but not quite epic level of price. Wow I didn't think of criticals...it's possible it can't crit, by treating the damage it deals as 'extra damage dice' with a base weapon damage of 0d0. It also needs to penetrate SR, which at the moment, at CL9th, it has a very low chance of doing by the time you can afford it. Also, not power attacking with it makes sense, so I shall add that in I think.
Gnarl 11-14-07, 11:24 AM	If you read the item creation rules, you would see it. Why? Because there is a process to item creation: 1) Look for similar items. 2) Look for items of similar power. 3) Look at this chart with 5/day, continuous, etc. Now, until you can show me a 3/day or more item existing that deals damage, I assert the item creation rules clearly say there can be no items with more than 2 per day activations that deal damage. Come on risner, a lot of new supplements with magic items in them have new items that don't follow the DMG guidelines (you know those Swift and Immediate action things ;)). It's not because something doesn't exist that it shouldn't. The only factor that should be taken into a account is whether the item is balance with respect to the power level of the gaming group or not.
risner 11-14-07, 11:43 AM	Come on risner, a lot of new supplements with magic items in them have new items that don't follow the DMG guidelines (you know those Swift and Immediate action things ;)). It's not because something doesn't exist that it shouldn't. The only factor that should be taken into a account is whether the item is balance with respect to the power level of the gaming group or not. My point is that there are no damaging items (including in the MIC) that allow more than 3 damaging effects a day. There are a number that deal a small amount if used 3/day, slightly more if used 2/day, and a little bit more if used 1/day. There is nothing in print that is use activated that deals damage other than things like +1 enhancement and +1d6 fire damage from things like Flaming. zeratulcraft needs to start quoting from the SRD a place where making use activated flame strike is allowed, because it is not in there. I don't use the SRD, and I am not about to do so. DMG page 282 has all you need to know to understand that you don't have the right (within the rules/guidelines) to jump to DMG p285 and start using a table for a Flame Strike item.
zeratulcraft 11-14-07, 06:56 PM	Okay. Flame Strike, Use Activated (On Hit), 5 x 9 x 2000 = 90,000gp (Possible discount since it's subject to an attack roll, which Flame Strike is not, and only affects one target, whereas Flame Strike affects a 10ft burst. Possibly one level lower.) Addition, Flame Strike 1/day, 5 x 9 x 1800 / (5/1) = 16,200gp = 106,200gp. Add in the cost of a +1 Longsword, 2,315gp. = 108,515gp Anyway, I've decided to rule 0, in the form of "If the guidelines explicitly state that I cannot do this, I overrule them, I can now do this.", so, does anyone aside risner have any thoughts? And does risner have any criticism that could be considered constructive, rather than simply saying without quotations that I cannot do something when a DM can do anything? EDIT : So, so far, the weapon looks like this. +1 Blade of Roaring Flames -Instead of dealing normal weapon damage, it deals damage as a Flame Strike at Caster Level 9th, no strength modifier applies. Note, this is not actually casting the spell on an area, but rather channeling it through the blade to have it strike only a single target and is subject to a normal attack roll and an SR check. -Flame Strike 1/day CL9th. -Unable to produce Critical Hits, if a critical is rolled and confirmed, it automatically hits and overcomes SR. -No strength modifier applies to damage (not sure about this one) -Cannot Power Attack -The Blades enhancement bonus (+1, +2 etc) applies on its to hit roll and its checks against SR (not sure about this either) Cost : 108,515gp (Possibly subject to discounts)
StruckingFuggle 11-14-07, 10:56 PM	Ignore Risner. There's no rules either way - but there are guidelines (but I'd price it close to other things what it does, with considerations for bonus damage - which can actually make it a weak weapon in many cases if you discount things like Strength and Power Attack and charge bonuses and the like! :O That's a huge loss for a melee weapon) - and that it'll only deal half damage to things with Fire Immunity / Resist and often be quenched by SR. ... Ultimately, it's your game. :) If there are rules, you can change them. Also, personally, I'd make the Flamestrike it casts special, if it's not otherwise noted, that when you cast it you use your character level for your caster level, rather than the minimum one. Finally, Risner, are you contractually obligated to be hostile and confrontational when you disagrees with someone, or ... what?
zeratulcraft 11-15-07, 12:05 AM	Ignore Risner. There's no rules either way - but there are guidelines (but I'd price it close to other things what it does, with considerations for bonus damage - which can actually make it a weak weapon in many cases if you discount things like Strength and Power Attack and charge bonuses and the like! :O That's a huge loss for a melee weapon) - and that it'll only deal half damage to things with Fire Immunity / Resist and often be quenched by SR. ... Ultimately, it's your game. :) If there are rules, you can change them. Also, personally, I'd make the Flamestrike it casts special, if it's not otherwise noted, that when you cast it you use your character level for your caster level, rather than the minimum one. Yeah it's not exactly a optimized charge/power attack weapon or anything, Maybe strength/PA applies but it the flame strike damage itself is not multiplied because its extra damage dice or something... see this is the reason I posted it lol, iron out odd things and make it cooler. Like the idea for the unique flame strike, I like it, it's getting added in.
StruckingFuggle 11-15-07, 02:28 AM	Yeah it's not exactly a optimized charge/power attack weapon or anything It's not that it's sub-optimal, it's that if you disallow that - well, what about sneak attack? Because at that level, if there's no way to add damage atop the 9d6, then it's not just not optimal, it might even be below suboptimal - a bad deal for basically anyone. You don't want it to be too strong, but for how awesome it is, you also want it to be something people want to use. :) Maybe strength/PA applies but it the flame strike damage itself is not multiplied because its extra damage dice or something... see this is the reason I posted it lol, iron out odd things and make it cooler. What about this? +1 1 Handed Medium 'special' weapon, magical. It's not a longsword, but it has the longsword weight, hardness, and hp, counts as a longsword for proficiency and feats ... however, it's weapon damage is 0 (before the plus 1), and it deals an additional 9d6 damage on a successful hit, half of which is fire and half of which is divine? Maybe make it "all divine" on a crit? Either way, then you can attack with it normally, but the flamestrike stuff isn't multiplied on a crit, and the 0 damage even represents the damaging part of the weapon being the flamestrike. :) Make the Flamestrike thing count as a +9 enhancement, and it's highly statistically valuable, but the point is even by the rules now it can't be 'beefed up', or you could lower the +9 if you want people to be able to eventually add additional magic (further enhancements) to it.
zeratulcraft 11-15-07, 03:21 AM	Okay, so here's the relevant magic item addition type description. Roaring Flames Damage of the weapon changes to 9d6, half of which is fire and the other half divine. Critical hits do not multiply damage dice (but they do multiply damage not expressed as dice), however they change the damage type to all Divine, which is not subject to resistances or immunities. The wielder may also use Flame Strike 1/day at a Caster Level equal to their Character Level. Cost : +9 (Most likely cheaper, +9 puts a +1 Roaring Flames weapon at 200k, when the effect is only worth half that when individually crafted on to an item, so maybe +6-+7) I'm thinking maybe it can be like Flaming, where you command word to turn the effect on, so that you can switch between weapon damage as normal or the flame striking effect. I imagine the cosmetic effect would be quite impressive too, normal steel blade suddenly igniting in white fire and the like, pretty cool in my mind. Also, I'm thinking maybe it should be limited to slashing/piercing weapons, but I can't really make a decent case for that, even to myself...
BarivusTheFearless 11-15-07, 12:34 PM	Ignore Risner. I think someone might have PMed zc about that. :D ...Back on topic, That sword sounds pretty nice. An expensive build, but sounds like it might come in handy. But only one charge/day. Better use it wisely :P So did you say that this was an item in your quest, or that your character is crafting it?
sapient 11-15-07, 06:56 PM	I think it's a cool idea. As I understand your original post, this sword will have some kind of special role in your campaign? Maybe not as a unique artifact, but with some campaign specific "fluff" tied to it? Then I say, don't mind the pricing guidlines all that much. Aim for what you want, and maybe set the price later if necessary. (Maybe not even setting a price at all, until after it has been play-tested a bit, so you know more about how useful it's features really are. Maybe an NPC has it or maybe it is not availale on the market to start with, as it has only recently been invented. That way you can introduce it before the players can get their hands on it.) Here are some further suggestions from me: - To overcome SR, why not use caster level 9 + users Cha-bonus. (Charisma could of course be swapped for Wis or any other ability that would fit. But I like Cha because a) it is tied to the Use Magic Device-skill and b) it's so often used as a dumpstat, there need to be SOME things that penalize that IMO... :) ) - On a critical hit, it could deal some kind of ability damage, perhaps -1 Con? (This would be instead of a standard weapon damage to multiply. It could be tied in with the divine link, from "half fire, half divine" energy. Could the weapon be tied to a diety of your campaign? Then the ability damage could be limited to creatures of opposing alignments to that of the diety.) Maybe these ideas are not at all in line with what you had in mind. But that is the reaction it produced in my mind... :D
zeratulcraft 11-15-07, 07:42 PM	For some fluff/campaign info. The item will have its place in the campaign I'm thinking of running, first as something resembling a symbol of a god. Anyone seen Sunshine? How that guy was worshipping the sun? Kinda like that. Except he'll be hiding out in a centuries old castle. The sword will be being used to amplify the sun, that will be causing a drastic heat rise to the surrounds. Thus heroes are called in to do their thing, the chamber of the sun will have the sword, and the Scorched Man, probably a cleric of some kind. While he won't use the sword, since it will be tipping the battle in his favour, (probably some fire damage/round in the chamber of the sun, which he will be immune to, but not the cosmetic effects of it) Wow, just had a funky idea, in the world I play/run in, Taiia is the deity of a desert land, so the Scorched Man is a cleric of Taiia attempting to make new lands into a desert, by upping the heat to ludicrous amounts and killing vegetation and stuff. Y'know, spread the lands of his deity and such. So really, the sword is a plot point I wanted to make relatively rare/unique, since it will be a reward for winning. The idea behind the sword will be it was a Pelor'ian made blade or something, like he made a badass artifact one for some hero and then a bunch of super powerful mages/clerics copied some of the magic and made these lesser, but still extremely powerful, Roaring Flame blades. Fairly standard fare as far as story is concerned, but I may come up with something better in the mean time. Now, on to more mechanics. I like the idea of adding Cha mod to SR checks, ties it more in with a paladin as the intended user, which makes sense, they're the kind to use divine power for damage, rather than a cleric using it to heal. Not so sure about the ability damage though, I think just letting it bypass all resistances/immunities (all divine damage) on a crit is fairly powerful already. Thanks for the ideas guys, keep em coming, though I think we're almost done. I'm fairly happy with it now, can't really think of anything I'd want to add...
risner 11-16-07, 02:49 PM	Finally, Risner, are you contractually obligated to be hostile and confrontational when you disagrees with someone, or ... what? If you mean by me saying a weapon that is equal to a +9 enhancement should be priced similar to a +9 enhancement and not +2,000 gp. The guidelines are rules, but rules they require judgment calls. So any time you go about pricing an item and you deviate from the existing items as drastic as this, you need to have a good reason. This weapon as proposed by the OP is not a good reason. It is a power grab. It is exactly what the rules of item creation suggests the DM prevent. If the DM doesn't want to prevent this, fine, it is his game.
Kn1ves 11-17-07, 11:31 AM	I don't get what's so great about this weapon. Don't get me wrong, I really like it and the idea behind it I'm just confused as to why people are saying it should be so expensive. The Eye of Flame in Libris Mortis is only 10,800gp and can do 10D6 fire/divine damage to an area once per day. Granted it allows a fairly low reflex save for half but is that really worth dropping the price that much? Just curious because I feel like I'm missing something. Like i said I like the idea and think it would make a great unique item in any campaign.
risner 11-17-07, 01:49 PM	Eye of Flame in Libris Mortis is only 10,800gp and can do 10D6 fire/divine damage to an area once per day There is a big difference in 1/day and "use activated" where the OP wants this sword to do 10d6 every swing. That is potentially 57,600 uses a day. If I have it all wrong and the OP just wants a standard sword that is +1 magical and deals standard damage but can be used 1/day to deal Flame Strike damage, then yea, by all means, make it cheaply. In fact since it is damage and 2 or less X/day, then make it by the CL*SL for 1 or 2 /day.
StruckingFuggle 11-17-07, 03:48 PM	There is a big difference in 1/day and "use activated" where the OP wants this sword to do 10d6 every swing. That is potentially 57,600 uses a day. No, it's not "potentially 57,600 uses of flamestrike a day", because you're forgetting something huge about this sword vs. flamestrike: this sword is single-target, Flamestrike is an AoE. It counts as flamestrike (9d6 damage, half fire half divine) per hit on a single target; and then once per day it can cast a full-on flamestrike with CL = HD. (unless I totally missed something) Hey, OP, what about extra damage? The +1 from its enhancement, strength, power attack, dex if its wielded by a Champion of Corellan (I think...?), Sneak Attack ... is it melee weapon damage, or is it half-divine and half-fire, too?
zeratulcraft 11-17-07, 07:34 PM	Hmm, I think I remember reading something about how sneak attacks with energy damage change the type of damage of the sneak attack to conform with the energy type. So Sneak Attack Shocking Grasp is all electricity. This would function the same way, all extra damage is dealt of the energy type of the sword, so on a normal hit it'd be half fire/half divine, on a crit that sneak attack would be full divine.
Kn1ves 11-17-07, 10:15 PM	Oh, my bad. I totaly misread the first post and thought that the sword was going to be able to deal a single target flamestrike once a day. Alright it is a bit more powerful then I originally thought. Commence the price debates.
zeratulcraft 11-17-07, 11:52 PM	Most people here think +9, I think a little lower, because adding the costs on separately ends up cheaper than the +9 cost. All in all it's probably a +9 just for effect, and I'm not really bothered by that.
StruckingFuggle 11-18-07, 12:54 AM	It's like stacking Flaming 9 times and then better by a bit, and since 9x Flaming is pretty lame for what you can do with +9 of bonus, +9 seems pretty good to me. I'd ... consider it, but not take it automatically.
risner 11-18-07, 12:56 AM	No, it's not "potentially 57,600 uses of flamestrike a day", because you're forgetting something huge about this sword vs. flamestrike: this sword is single-target, Flamestrike is an AoE. It counts as flamestrike (9d6 damage, half fire half divine) per hit on a single target; and then once per day it can cast a full-on flamestrike with CL = HD. (unless I totally missed something) Yep, you totally are missing somthing. It is 57,600 uses regardless if those uses are single target (which I clearly picked up) or AoE. In short, it is potentially 57,600 hits of 9d6 on a single target in a day. There is no way this should be less than a +9 enhancement for the base damage effect. The 1/day part should be using the CL*SL since it deals damage (and like all damage dealing effects use the CL*SL formula.)
StruckingFuggle 11-18-07, 01:00 AM	It is 57,600 uses regardless if those uses are single target (which I clearly picked up) or AoE. Wait - do you not think that those are of different value? also, to the OP: I'd say maybe not make it technically a +9 enchant, because that's technically quite epic, and we all know that then to introduce it to a non-epic game is just awful; so instead just call it a +1 weapon that can't be further enhanced that costs about the same as a Market +10. :)
zeratulcraft 11-18-07, 02:08 AM	Wait - do you not think that those are of different value? also, to the OP: I'd say maybe not make it technically a +9 enchant, because that's technically quite epic, and we all know that then to introduce it to a non-epic game is just awful; so instead just call it a +1 weapon that can't be further enhanced that costs about the same as a Market +10. :) That is indeed a much better plan, as it's mostly a sword of plot point that can also be used. I'll go with that for my game I think. Thanks.
StruckingFuggle 11-18-07, 03:00 AM	I for one would very much like to know how well it works out in your game.
zeratulcraft 11-18-07, 03:19 AM	I'll rez this thread after they receive the blade and tell you how their next few battles went and such. As well as the battle with the Scorched Man. And again, thanks to everyone who contributed constructively, it would not be in the form it is now without your aid. So, without further ado, THE BLADE OF ROARING FLAMES! This longsword has an elaborate hand guard which appears as a fully extended pair of angel wings, the guard's center also bears a beautiful white diamond. It's hand grip is bound with golden hued leather and at the very base of the sword is another white diamond, as perfect as the first. The only other unique feature of this is a long series of letters written down the middle part of the blade (in Celestial), forming two words. They say the word 'Roaring Flames'. Handling the blade you hear a mysterious angelic voice in your mind say the same two words, and for an instant you think you see the blade turn into a mass of white flame. Upon speaking the command word, the Blade is sheathed in white fire, this does not harm the wielder of the weapon. This white flame changes the damage dice of the weapon to 9d6, half of which is fire and the other half divine. Critical hits do not multiply damage dice (but they do multiply damage not expressed as dice), however they change the damage type to all Divine, which is not subject to resistances or immunities. This damage is subject to Spell Resistance, the Caster Level for this purpose is equal to 9 plus the wielder's charisma modifier. All additional damage (sneak attack, strength mod) are of the damage type of the blade. The wielder may additionally use Flame Strike 1/day at a Caster Level equal to their Character Level. The save DC for the flame strike reflex save is equal to 17 plus the wielder's charisma modifier. Effective Market Price : 200,315gp + 20,000gp (Those are very nice diamonds)
risner 11-18-07, 02:12 PM	Wait - do you not think that those are of different value? Not sure what you are asking, but I think it is this: Do you think a 9d6 base weapon attack is a different value than a 1/day AoE flame strike? Then yes, of course, that is what I have been saying the whole time. The base weapon of 9d6 is worth +9 at minimum enhancement. The 1/day (or even 2/day) AoE is worth standard "damage dealing" costs which are CL*SL*1,800/X where X is 1 or 2. Having this be 3 or more is outside the scope of a damage dealing price and becomes expensive fast.
zeratulcraft 11-19-07, 07:07 PM	Not sure what you are asking, but I think it is this: Do you think a 9d6 base weapon attack is a different value than a 1/day AoE flame strike? Then yes, of course, that is what I have been saying the whole time. The base weapon of 9d6 is worth +9 at minimum enhancement. The 1/day (or even 2/day) AoE is worth standard "damage dealing" costs which are CL*SL*1,800/X where X is 1 or 2. Having this be 3 or more is outside the scope of a damage dealing price and becomes expensive fast. You've got your formula wrong there, the X is 5 divided by the number of charges per day, of which there is no established limit in the guidelines. For instance, the way your formula works its actually CHEAPER to have something work 2/day, than 1/day. This makes no sense.
risner 11-19-07, 08:07 PM	You've got your formula wrong there, the X is 5 divided by the number of charges per day, of which there is no established limit in the guidelines. So I missed putting the *5 in before the /X in my post. As for the no established limit, that isn't quite true, since no existing similar items have more than 1 or 2 a day of a damaging spell, you have an established limit in the guidelines of 1 or 2 a day.
zeratulcraft 11-19-07, 08:37 PM	So I missed putting the *5 in before the /X in my post. As for the no established limit, that isn't quite true, since no existing similar items have more than 1 or 2 a day of a damaging spell, you have an established limit in the guidelines of 1 or 2 a day. It's /(5/X) Yet no where does it say, "Because we haven't made an item, you can't make it." That is, afterall, why the guidelines are there. If they made EVERY SINGLE ITEM, there'd be no reason to put guidelines in to aid us in creating our own. And yet again, I say there is no where in the guidelines that says you cannot create an item with 3 or more charges a day. It is simply not mentioned, now if you'd do like the rest of us, read the SRD and link me the quote where it says exactly that, I might believe you. Until then you're simply trolling.
Tytalus 11-19-07, 11:38 PM	Yep, you totally are missing somthing. Not really. Fact of the matter is that the weapon's power is not 57k Flamestrikes. It adds elemental and holy damage, which is very nicely covered by existing weapon enchantments (and should cost +9, as you pointed out, +1 for the necessary base enchantment). The fact that Holy damage is more useful/powerful than elemental could move a DM to increase the price further, but up to this point it could be +10 weapon. The actual Flamestrike 1/day should be priced according to the DMG guidelines, and the DM can consider if he wants to impose a pricing factor for the +10 weapon cost because of "multiple different abilities". Either way, a very expensive sword. As a mitigating factor I'd like to point out that the weapon deals no regular damage, so the price could be lowered a little. If it deal no other damage than the fire/holy effect at all (i.e., no extra damage from high strength, special abilities etc.), I'd make a major adjustment here as that's where most of the damage for higher level characters comes from (as opposed to the base weapon damage alone).
Tytalus 11-19-07, 11:44 PM	As for the no established limit, that isn't quite true, since no existing similar items have more than 1 or 2 a day of a damaging spell, you have an established limit in the guidelines of 1 or 2 a day. Aside from the utterly ridiculous logic used in the above statement, the DMG item creation guidelines have clear rules for pricing an item with charges per day (see table 7-33). The rules work for any number of charges per day (yes, even more than 5), so there's no reason to come up with an arbitrary restriction.
risner 11-20-07, 12:16 AM	It's /(5/X) I might believe you. Until then you're simply trolling. /(5/X) = *5/X or did you not realize that? As for trolling, I am trying to explain the item creation rules as written, and you are greeting me with nothing but belligerent posts. Not really. Fact of the matter is that the weapon's power is not 57k Flamestrikes. It adds elemental and holy damage, which is very nicely covered by existing weapon enchantments (and should cost +9, as you pointed out, +1 for the necessary base enchantment). The fact that Holy damage is more useful/powerful than elemental could move a DM to increase the price further, but up to this point it could be +10 weapon. The actual Flamestrike 1/day should be priced according to the DMG guidelines, and the DM can consider if he wants to impose a pricing factor for the +10 weapon cost because of "multiple different abilities". Either way, a very expensive sword. As a mitigating factor I'd like to point out that the weapon deals no regular damage, so the price could be lowered a little. If it deal no other damage than the fire/holy effect at all (i.e., no extra damage from high strength, special abilities etc.), I'd make a major adjustment here as that's where most of the damage for higher level characters comes from (as opposed to the base weapon damage alone). You are not missing anything I am saying, since your post (quoted above) is exactly what I am say (or part of it). In short, I agree with your post I have quoted here above 100%. Aside from the utterly ridiculous logic used in the above statement, the DMG item creation guidelines have clear rules for pricing an item with charges per day (see table 7-33). The rules work for any number of charges per day (yes, even more than 5), so there's no reason to come up with an arbitrary restriction. Fine, but on this point you are making 2 leaps: 1) You get to bypass the "look for similar items" rule and go to 5/day. 2) You get to bypass the "look for similar power" rule and go to 5/day. My only question is: Can you name a WotC published 3/day or more damage dealing item? Just one and I will admit I was wrong. My points, which I admit I am having a really hard time showing, is this: A) You can't make an item that deals 57k times a day flame strike like damage (9d6) to a single target without making it a +9 or greater enhancement bonus to the weapon. B) You can't make a 3 or more per day item that deals AoE damage with the SL*CL rules, since there are no similar items or items of similar power to ground the pricing in stone. The only existing "Flame Strike x/day" items are 1/day items or 2/day Ethernal Wands from Eberron.
zeratulcraft 11-20-07, 12:54 AM	/(5/X) = *5/X or did you not realize that? As for trolling, I am trying to explain the item creation rules as written, and you are greeting me with nothing but belligerent posts. See, but the important part is what the guidelines say, they say /(5/X), does not matter if you do something to the effect. Because that's you altering the rules, which is what your whole problem is! You're attempting to say that because there are no items with something damaging more than 2/day, it cannot exist. That's you imposing your own rules when it is simply not said anywhere in the SRD or DMG. Effectively, you're saying that I must use your house rule, which I am obviously becoming more hostile to the idea of using. So, until you give me a SRD quote word for word and provide a link and where I can find the words that state that I cannot make an item that deals damage more than two times a day, you're house ruling. And guess what? IF you do, doubtful, considering no such rule exists, I house rule the rule away! You're the only person here who has not given any advice other than "OMG YOU CANT BECAUSE A RULE I WONT FIND FOR YOU SAYS YOU CANT" You're simply being annoying. EDIT : I can tell you're actually arguing for the sake of arguing now. It's a +9 enhancement, as you somehow desire, and it additionally can flamestrike 1/day, wtf is your problem exactly?
Tytalus 11-20-07, 12:59 AM	Fine, but on this point you are making 2 leaps: 1) You get to bypass the "look for similar items" rule and go to 5/day. 2) You get to bypass the "look for similar power" rule and go to 5/day. It's not bypassing the rules at all. If there's no similar item, then you can't use it as a guideline and simply use the rules as written. My only question is: Can you name a WotC published 3/day or more damage dealing item? Just one and I will admit I was wrong. It's entirely irrelevant. Even if no such item exists, it's no limitation on creating new items. But if you insist, here's a quick example: Thurible of Retribution [Arms and Equipment Guide]: Inflict Light Wounds 3/day.
risner 11-20-07, 12:42 PM	You're attempting to say that because there are no items with something damaging more than 2/day, it cannot exist. That's you imposing your own rules when it is simply not said anywhere in the SRD or DMG.? You have a whole lot of hostility for someone who is agreeing and making the item as the rules say (+9 enhancement and 1/day) and you still refuse to see that what I am saying is the rules in the DMG and SRD. If you refuse to read the sections that say items are priced by their worth and items are priced based on similar items and items of similar power, I can't help you. I can only lead you to the water. It's not bypassing the rules at all. If there's no similar item, then you can't use it as a guideline and simply use the rules as written. But if you insist, here's a quick example: Thurible of Retribution [Arms and Equipment Guide]: Inflict Light Wounds 3/day. You and I have different definitions of bypassing, but you did find me a 3/day example and as such I will retract my 2/day limit. It is however hard to figure a price on that being 77,000 gp. What I mean by this is there is no way to determine if they charged a premium on 3/day above the formula price. I think you and I agree, the rules say items are priced by their worth, and an item with 3/day or 5/day (or unlimited) Flame Strike is worth a considerable larger amount of money than a Necklace of Fireballs (which can be exhausted.) My point is that it is against the rules to provide an item at a cost that is similar to other items (Necklace of Fireballs) but in all other ways (usability) it is better than the NoF.
zeratulcraft 11-20-07, 08:03 PM	So, how do you make something similar to something that does not exist? You can't! So, you use guidelines. Go everyone but you!