Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elthbert 04-14-05, 10:05 AM	Cut and thrust sword One handed martial weapon Damage 1d6 Crit 19-20 x 2 Slashing or Piercing This weapon is finessable I am starting a swashbuckling/pirate campaign soon and I would like an appropriate weapon alternative for swashbucklers. I took the rapier lowered it’s threat range and gave it slashing or piercing damage ( like a Cut and Thrust is actually capable of) I think d6 is actually a bit low for this weapon but d8 would be unbalanced against the long( arming) sword. Anyway do you think that an option of two types of damage is enough to offset the loss of a point of crit range or do you think some other little nicety like a +1 against disarms ( to allow for the side rings and other protections on the hilt) is needed. I am not trying to build an uber weapon I am just trying to balance it against the swashbucklers other choice the rapier. Now I also intend to include the buckler, the actual buckler not the D&D version which is a Target shield. It will be used in the fist not on the arm; have a + 1 to ac and be able to have a spike on it just like a real buckler, I am going to come up with some feats for it’s use which I will post later on this thread.
Sunrider 04-14-05, 10:41 AM	At the moment it's strictly inferior to the Cutlass (1d6 19-20/x2 S/P light melee weapon). What I'd do would be to simply use the stats for a rapier - as it is, the D&D 'rapier' is probably more like a cut-and-thrust sword than a later 17th-century-style rapier anyway; a rapier is not a military weapon, while a cut-and-thrust sword (shorter and broader than the rapier, though, unlike the 'longsword' (single-handed knightly sword), usually with more thrust than cut) certainly is a military blade. Given that the D&D 'rapier' is effective against armoured opponents and can stand up to armoured combat, the cut-and-thrust sword is probably its closest real-world counterpart.
Elthbert 04-14-05, 10:51 AM	Well while I agree a cut and thrust is more cut than thrust and the rapier has no slashing damage, i would like to have a facility for that, but it seems unbalanced to just add that in, the D&D Rapier is already fairly scary. PS. Where are the cutlass stats?
Johannixx 04-14-05, 11:06 AM	What I've done is take the longsword, reduce its HP, make it S/P and finesseable, and voila! Instant sidesword/cut-and-thrust sword. Then again, all straight-bladed swords IMC are S/P.
Sunrider 04-14-05, 11:12 AM	Cutlass is in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting; also, I forgot to mention that it's a light martial weapon that grants a +2 bonus to resist Disarm attempts.
Elthbert 04-14-05, 11:23 AM	Cutlass is in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting; also, I forgot to mention that it's a light martial weapon that grants a +2 bonus to resist Disarm attempts. Wow that is a frightening weapon. I suppose even concidering it is FR ( which I always think of as High power) I suppose a a + 2 to prevent disarms wouldn't be out of line. but the cutlass is still a lifght weapon and I just can't see the Cut and thrust as being so. Any suggestions?
Vahenir 04-14-05, 11:48 AM	The FR Cutlass is broken. Ignore it at all costs. Moving along: The problem we're going to slam right into is that there's only so many non-exotic ways to fudge with weapon stats. Gaing S/P damage type is certainly not powerful enough (and in many games might never even -matter-) to cover the loss of threat range. And if you up the damage, it becomes a longsword. I might make a suggestion: If your world is story-oriented and you make your players really pay attention to how much they're spending and stuff: Take the Elven Lightblade and Elven Thinblade out of Races of the Wild. Make them Martial weapons that are -extremely- expensive. Or just keep them as Exotic, and hand out EWP Lightblade (Smallsword?) or Thinblade (Sidesword/Cut-and-Thrust?) for free at first or second level to whatever class you think is appropriate - Fighter, Swashbuckler, Rogue - whatever.
Tony Vargas 04-14-05, 12:19 PM	An extra damage type doesn't count for as much as the loss of threat range, though slashing is generally 'better' than piercing. A lot of weapons do trade in a threat range or point of average damage for /both/ the Trip and +2 Disarm specials. So, your Cut & Thrust Sword might be balanced at d6 19-20/x2, S/P, finesseable, & +2 Disarm. That's heavy on the specials, so still weak for a character that doesn't value /all/ of them, but it's probably enough to make it attractive to some. A fencer who plans on doing a lot of disarming using Weapon Finesse, for instance, and wants to pull tricks like cutting ropes and whatnot.
Elthbert 04-14-05, 08:52 PM	d6 19-20/x2, S/P, finesseable, & +2 Disarm Okay I think I'll use that, it's differant has some flavor and gives reasons to take it. I'll try to post at least the first of the buckler feats tonight.
Elthbert 04-14-05, 09:22 PM	Feat – Beat Prerequisite – proficiency in the buckler When using a buckler in the off hand the character gains + 2 to feint and disarm checks Improved Beat Prerequisite Proficiency in the buckler, Beat When using a buckler in the off hand the character gains + 4 to feint and disarm attempts. ( should this stack with beat? Certianly it will stack with improved disarm)
Elthbert 04-15-05, 08:48 AM	bump because I would like some opinions
striderII 04-15-05, 09:12 AM	Are you going to allow the buckler to shield bash? It's certainly a real world tactic - which certain styles of buckler, there was a technique called the "mustachio" that involved slamming the top edge of the buckler into the opponent's upper lip, just under the nose (hence, "giving the mustache"). Just curious, as I thought the lack of ability to do this with any shield in the rules was somewhat ridiculous. strider
Elthbert 04-15-05, 09:58 AM	Absolutely I have some experiance with a buckler and you beat and bash with it at least as much as you passivly block with it. Improved Shield Bash should be a no brianer for someone who uses a buckler. In fact that Beating of the opponants blade with the buckler is the reason for the above feats.
striderII 04-15-05, 10:05 AM	Absolutely I have some experiance with a buckler and you beat and bash with it at least as much as you passivly block with it. Improved Shield Bash should be a no brianer for someone who uses a buckler. In fact that Beating of the opponants blade with the buckler is the reason for the above feats. That's what I thought, but I just wanted to make sure. The feats look good...I'm not yet decided on my opinion if they should stack or not, though...I'll let you know when I decide (or if others make good qualifying points). strider
Vahenir 04-15-05, 11:13 AM	I wouldn't have them stack. The improved version of the feat should probably override the original feat. Although I'd also consider adding at least a little something extra to the improved version of the feat. Possibly a bonus to shield bash attacks (+1 should be sufficient) just to make it a little more worthwhile.
Tony Vargas 04-15-05, 01:15 PM	Elthbert/striderII: are the buckler's you're using/talking about little metal things strapped to your forearm that leave your hand/wrist totally unencumbered, or are they small, wood & metal, center-gripped shields? Possibly a bonus to shield bash attacks (+1 should be sufficient) just to make it a little more worthwhile. How'd that be different from WF:Sheild? Since D&D bucklers can't normally be used to perform a sheild bash, the extra benefit could be the ability to use one that way (maybe counting as a light shield).
Eliza_Stormwhisper 04-15-05, 01:31 PM	I don't know about you, but I've allowed special rules for swords (and sometimes other weapons). A longsword, while typically slashing for 1d8, can thrust for 1d6. A short sword, whily typically thrusting for 1d6, can slash for 1d4. A bastard sword (slashes for 1d10) can thrust for 2d4. A broad sword (slashes for 2d4) can thrust for 1d6. Also, when using a weapon against damage type, you incur a -2 penalty to hit, since the weapon wasn't designed for that. Etc... it the design of the weapon allows, you can choose another type of damage at a reduced damage die... I might even consider allowing 1d2 bludgeoning damage with the hilt of a sword. Now, on the other hand, if you tried to do slashing damage with a mace, I'd punch you. That's one of the biggest advantages of a dagger, is that it can cut and thrust with equal effectiveness.
Vahenir 04-15-05, 02:01 PM	Elthbert/striderII: are the buckler's you're using/talking about little metal things strapped to your forearm that leave your hand/wrist totally unencumbered, or are they small, wood & metal, center-gripped shields? I believe he already mentioned that he wasn't referring to the target shield - but the center-gripped version of the 'buckler.' How'd that be different from WF:Sheild? Since D&D bucklers can't normally be used to perform a sheild bash, the extra benefit could be the ability to use one that way (maybe counting as a light shield). Good point. Though since he's not referring (as far as I know) to a D&D version of a buckler, there really is no added benefit to just being able to shield bash. I was just trying to brainstorm up something really quickly that could make the feat a little bit more worth taking. Also, when using a weapon against damage type, you incur a -2 penalty to hit, since the weapon wasn't designed for that. Personally, I have a dislike for this particular argument. Considering most swords were, in fact, designed to do both cutting and thrusting - it's unreasonable to say "well since it wasn't designed for this..." - as it -was- designed for that. If a player's vision of his longsword is a 15th century German arming sword - it makes perfect sense it can thrust as well as it can cut - since that type of arming sword was, in fact, designed for both. That's the case with -many- different styles of swords. And since D&D does not specify exactly what 'style' of each sword they're talking about - you're putting undue limitations on their vision. But I suppose it might be better than nothing - I still think dual-damage types shouldn't be penalized unless there's a really good reason for it (which I've yet to hear). As for as pommeling goes - I'm on the fence about it. I've tried out quite a few different rulings for allowing the hilt of a sword to be used to deal bludgeoning damage. Generally, it's not worth it. Even against a creature with DR only surpassed by bludgeoning damage - it's usually more effective to just go with slashing rather than 1d2 bludgeoning. You'll do more damage with a reduced-damaged slash than that. The only rule I ended up being okay with was allowing the hilt of a sword to be used as an improvised gauntlet for the purposes of damage and crit range.
Elthbert 04-15-05, 03:09 PM	Elthbert/striderII: are the buckler's you're using/talking about little metal things strapped to your forearm that leave your hand/wrist totally unencumbered, or are they small, wood & metal, center-gripped shields? How'd that be different from WF:Sheild? Since D&D bucklers can't normally be used to perform a sheild bash, the extra benefit could be the ability to use one that way (maybe counting as a light shield). Center gripped shields of course not the targ that D&D calls a buckler. As for the shield bash I simply intend to allow them for anyopne who is profecient in buckler I am thinking Id2 0r 1d3 with 1d4 for a spike, a +1 to shield bash sounds good but I am not sure any other suggestions?
striderII 04-15-05, 04:37 PM	Center gripped shields of course not the targ that D&D calls a buckler. As for the shield bash I simply intend to allow them for anyopne who is profecient in buckler I am thinking Id2 0r 1d3 with 1d4 for a spike, a +1 to shield bash sounds good but I am not sure any other suggestions? Agreed. Targe/Targa/Target: Strapped to arm (same as current D&D "buckler") Buckler: small shield (I've heard/seen an average size of under 20" diameter or so, if circular) held in the hand. Basically, it's something else that's "wrong" in D&D in relation to historical accuracy. strider
Tony Vargas 04-15-05, 04:56 PM	Center gripped shields of course not the targ that D&D calls a buckler. As for the shield bash I simply intend to allow them for anyopne who is profecient in buckler I am thinking Id2 0r 1d3 with 1d4 for a spike, a +1 to shield bash sounds good but I am not sure any other suggestions?OK, missed that. In another thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=373844&page=3) I was also trying to stat out real vs D&D bucklers. I think I counted bashing with a buckler as equal to an attack with a guantlet, and the spiked version like, well, a spiked guantlet....
Elthbert 04-15-05, 06:20 PM	OK, missed that. In another thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=373844&page=3) I was also trying to stat out real vs D&D bucklers. I think I counted bashing with a buckler as equal to an attack with a guantlet, and the spiked version like, well, a spiked guantlet.... I guess that makes sense to use it like a gauntlet as it is used with a punching motion. So Improved beat Prerequisite Proficiency in the buckler, Beat When using a buckler in the off hand the character gains + 4 to feint and disarm attempts +1 to shield bash with the buckler ( this counts as weapon focus for prerequisite purposes). That seem balanced and reasonably attractive to a swashbuckler type?
Vahenir 04-15-05, 06:36 PM	I think so. I definitely think the rolled up WP is a -good- idea, and I'll tell you why. As the shields of D&D stand, technically there's no reason for a swashbuckler to choose your buckler over a light steel shield. Now, they have more of a reason. So it'll help to encourage a more believable equipment tendency.
Elthbert 04-15-05, 06:43 PM	feat --- Cloak Use-- The Character gains the ability to use their cloak ( or any appropriatly large piece of fabric) as a defensive weapon. When used as an off handed weapon the cloak provides a +1 AC bonus + 1 to Fient and + 1 to disarm checks. No other shield may be used no other weapon maybe used in the off hand to recieve these benefits.
Elthbert 04-15-05, 06:43 PM	I think so. I definitely think the rolled up WP is a -good- idea, and I'll tell you why. As the shields of D&D stand, technically there's no reason for a swashbuckler to choose your buckler over a light steel shield. Now, they have more of a reason. So it'll help to encourage a more believable equipment tendency. Thank you.
Tony Vargas 04-15-05, 06:59 PM	Cloak Use-- The Character gains the ability to use their cloak ( or any appropriatly large piece of fabric) as a defensive weapon. When used as an off handed weapon the cloak provides a +1 AC bonus + 1 to Fient and + 1 to disarm checks. Interesting. How 'bout naming the AC bonus? Or maybe concealment instead of AC? As the shields of D&D stand, technically there's no reason for a swashbuckler to choose your buckler over a light steel shield. Because they're both just +1 AC, can both bash, and both take up a hand (instead of the D&D Buckler which can't bash, and doesn't take up a hand)? I'd thought of differentiating a center-gripped buckler by allowing it to be drawn or dropped like a weapon, instead of put on or 'loosed' like a shield...
Elthbert 04-15-05, 07:13 PM	Interesting. How 'bout naming the AC bonus? Or maybe concealment instead of AC?... I guess a shield bonus. Well I thought about a concealment bonus but I was thinking about that a an improved version something like. Improved cloak use Prerequisite -- cloak use Character gains an additional +1 to disarm and feint checks when useing a cloak as there off handed weapon in addition the character gains 25% concelment as the rapidly moving cloak obscures the vision of his opponant. Because they're both just +1 AC, can both bash, and both take up a hand (instead of the D&D Buckler which can't bash, and doesn't take up a hand)? I'd thought of differentiating a center-gripped buckler by allowing it to be drawn or dropped like a weapon, instead of put on or 'loosed' like a shield... I definantly agree that they should be drawn and be dropable, and having the rolled up WP should help it be more attractive.
Elthbert 04-15-05, 07:19 PM	Maybe the Improved cloak thing should require an ex of 13 or something. it seems appropriate butI'm not sure it is powerful enogh for it to be a concern.
Tony Vargas 04-15-05, 07:33 PM	ex? Blur is a second level spell and gives, IIRC, 20% concealment for a limitted time... I think limitting the concealment to a single enemy, or not allowing it to aply to both enemies in any flanking pair, might be reasonble... A few ranks of Sleight of Hand might be an apropriate preq.
Elthbert 04-15-05, 07:59 PM	That should be dex. 25% concelment to opponants in front of the character? Or simply say can only be appplied to one member of a flanking pair.
Vahenir 04-15-05, 08:47 PM	I say the character should have to designate who he wants it to apply to at the beginning of each round - similar to dodge. That eliminates any troublesome "the person in front of you" scenarios, since there is no facing in D&D.
Elthbert 04-15-05, 08:51 PM	I say the character should have to designate who he wants it to apply to at the beginning of each round - similar to dodge. That eliminates any troublesome "the person in front of you" scenarios, since there is no facing in D&D. Thats true. That makes since to me.
Tony Vargas 04-15-05, 08:53 PM	The latter, maybe. Flanking's as close to facing as you can find in 3E.
Elthbert 04-15-05, 09:04 PM	The latter, maybe. Flanking's as close to facing as you can find in 3E. Well I think it is always assumed you are facing someone who is attacking you unless there are multilple attackers. deignating a foe would probably be more balancing but it seems less realistic, I also thought perhaps the concelment should not apply to creatures 2 size catagories or larger than you ( to account for the fact that they can simply see your whole body, but that also might make it more complicated than it's worth.
striderII 04-15-05, 09:06 PM	The feats sound good to me so far. How about a later feat in the cloak tree...maybe "Greater Cloak Use" or something similar, that allows you to use the cloak as a grapple attack of some sort without provoking an Attack of Opportunity? Just brainstorming a bit here. strider
Elthbert 04-15-05, 09:28 PM	I've been trying to come up with a good third feat for each of the 2 but I am having some trouble balanceing power, usability and some level of realism, while I don't mind stretching the limits( i mean um a 5th level wizard can fly and cast fireballs and dozens of other unrealistic things) I would like the feats to be in the realm of reality. What do ya'll think about a Cloak Mastery or somthing which might allow a trip attack with the cloak and maybe the ability to close ( using the cloak to blind an opponant or to conceal the movement) for a grapple with out provoking an AoO. Should it additionally increase the fient, disarm pluses or perhaps the AC bonus to +2. Comments? Any Ideas for a Greater Beat?
striderII 04-16-05, 12:59 PM	What do ya'll think about a Cloak Mastery or somthing which might allow a trip attack with the cloak and maybe the ability to close ( using the cloak to blind an opponant or to conceal the movement) for a grapple with out provoking an AoO. Should it additionally increase the fient, disarm pluses or perhaps the AC bonus to +2. Comments? Yeah - isn't that an elaboration on what I wrote above? :) Seriously, if I have some time this weekend, I'll try to write up something. I have a Vampire LARP tonight, but I should have some time tomorrow (key word "should"). If not, I'll do what I can on Monday. strider
Vahenir 04-16-05, 01:45 PM	I think free trip attempts are perfect for higher level characters. And if you make sure it's restricted so that characters can only take it at 10th level and up - it's fine. Like so: Greater Cloak Fighting Prerequisites: BAB 10+, Improved Cloak Fighting Benefit: When fighting with a cloak in your off-hand, you may make a free trip attempt once per round. If your trip attempt fails, you may release your cloak to keep from being tripped yourself. Superior Cloak Fighting Prerequisites: BAB 12+, Greater Cloak Fighting Benefit: If you fail a trip attempt you make with your cloak, you cannot be counter-tripped. You do not need to release your cloak to benefit from this ability. Greater Beat Prerequisites: Improved Beat (maybe BAB requirement) Benefit: You gain one free shield bash per round at your highest attack bonus, when taking the full attack action. Thoughts?
Elthbert 04-16-05, 02:24 PM	Yeah - isn't that an elaboration on what I wrote above? :) Seriously, if I have some time this weekend, I'll try to write up something. I have a Vampire LARP tonight, but I should have some time tomorrow (key word "should"). If not, I'll do what I can on Monday. strider Yes it is. any help would be appriciated.
Elthbert 04-16-05, 03:27 PM	I think free trip attempts are perfect for higher level characters. And if you make sure it's restricted so that characters can only take it at 10th level and up - it's fine. Like so: Greater Cloak Fighting Prerequisites: BAB 10+, Improved Cloak Fighting Benefit: When fighting with a cloak in your off-hand, you may make a free trip attempt once per round. If your trip attempt fails, you may release your cloak to keep from being tripped yourself. Superior Cloak Fighting Prerequisites: BAB 12+, Greater Cloak Fighting Benefit: If you fail a trip attempt you make with your cloak, you cannot be counter-tripped. You do not need to release your cloak to benefit from this ability. Greater Beat Prerequisites: Improved Beat (maybe BAB requirement) Benefit: You gain one free shield bash per round at your highest attack bonus, when taking the full attack action. Thoughts? I like them. I think if you where going to have a BAB requirment on the greater beat it should be reasonabliy low like + 4 or +6, some on has already invested 2 feats to get to it and attacks are self scaling. heck wirlwind attack is only +4 BAB. As for the Greater// Superior cloak fighting-- do you think it is enough for a 10th or 12th level guy to want to take it? Like I said I want them to be balanced so that is my priority, but I also want them to be useful and reasonably attractive, do you think a free trip attack is equivilent to other feats that are 3rd in a tree and require that high a BAB. I'm not say its not I just am asking? Would you take these feats? Would it be out of line to add another +1 to your disarm and fient checks to greater cloak fighting and then perhaps an additional + 1 to the AC bonus on superior cloak fighting. THey would then look like this: Greater Cloak Fighting Prerequisites: BAB 10+, Improved Cloak Fighting Benefit: When fighting with a cloak in your off-hand, you may make a free trip attempt once per round. If your trip attempt fails, you may release your cloak to keep from being tripped yourself. In addition the you gain an additional +1 to fient and disarm checks when using a cloak as an off hand weapon. Superior Cloak Fighting Prerequisites: BAB 12+, Greater Cloak Fighting Benefit: If you fail a trip attempt you make with your cloak, you cannot be counter-tripped. You do not need to release your cloak to benefit from this ability. You gain a +1 shield bonus from your cloak this bonus stacks with The bonus granted by Cloak Use. If you took all four feats then you would have a total bonus + 3 to Disarm, +3 to fient, 25% concealment to one designated opponant, 1 free trip attack a round ( in which you don't have to worry about losing your cloak) and +2 to AC. Is that to much for 4 feats? The bash tree would give you a total of + 4 to fient, +4 to disarm, +1 to shield bash and a free shield bash attack every round at your highest base attack bonus. cost 3 feats Do these seem fair equitable disirable and balanced?
Elthbert 04-16-05, 03:30 PM	oh it was a triple post. stupid boards.
Elthbert 04-16-05, 03:36 PM	double post
Elthbert 04-16-05, 07:00 PM	So the total would look like this-- Cloak Use— Benefit--You gain the ability to use your cloak ( or any appropriately large piece of fabric) as a defensive weapon. When used as an off handed weapon the cloak provides a +1 AC bonus + 1 to Feint and + 1 to disarm checks. No other shield nor any other weapon maybe used in the off hand to receive these benefits. Improved cloak use Prerequisite -- Cloak Use You gain an additional +1 to disarm and feint checks when using a cloak as there off handed weapon in addition the character gains 25% concealment as the rapidly moving cloak obscures the vision of his opponent. Greater Cloak Fighting Prerequisites: BAB 10+, Improved Cloak Fighting Benefit: When fighting with a cloak in your off-hand, you may make a free trip attempt once per round. If your trip attempt fails, you may release your cloak to keep from being tripped yourself. In addition the you gain an additional +1 to feint and disarm checks when using a cloak as an off hand weapon. Superior Cloak Fighting Prerequisites: BAB 12+, Greater Cloak Fighting Benefit: If you fail a trip attempt you make with your cloak, you cannot be counter-tripped. You do not need to release your cloak to benefit from this ability. You gain a +1 shield bonus from your cloak this bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Cloak Use.
Elthbert 04-16-05, 07:54 PM	And this: Feat – Beat Prerequisite – proficiency in the buckler When using a buckler in the off hand you gain a + 2 to feint and disarm checks Improved Beat Prerequisite Proficiency in the buckler, Beat When using a buckler in the off hand you gain + 4 to feint and disarm attempts and a +1 to shield bash with the buckler ( this counts as weapon focus for prerequisite purposes).. Greater Beat Prerequisites: Improved Beat (maybe BAB requirement) Benefit: You gain one free shield bash per round at your highest attack bonus, when taking the full attack action
Elthbert 04-17-05, 02:53 PM	bump
Vahenir 04-17-05, 05:20 PM	I think they look good.. however on the Improved Beat: A) I think the +1 bonus and WP should stack. If you agree, you might want to make a notation of that just so that it's clear. If you don't agree - again, you should make a notation so that it's clear that they don't stack. B) Do you plan to have the Feint and Disarm bonuses stack, or for the Improved Beat to override Beat? Either way, you should make a notation of your desire so that it's clear to your players how the feat works.
Elthbert 04-17-05, 05:26 PM	I think they look good.. however on the Improved Beat: A) I think the +1 bonus and WP should stack. If you agree, you might want to make a notation of that just so that it's clear. If you don't agree - again, you should make a notation so that it's clear that they don't stack. B) Do you plan to have the Feint and Disarm bonuses stack, or for the Improved Beat to override Beat? Either way, you should make a notation of your desire so that it's clear to your players how the feat works. WP? Does WP shield give you a +1 now or is it WF you are meaning to say? B. I do mean for them to stack thats why I put additional You think I need to say it directly, your probably right players can be obtuse at times.
Vahenir 04-17-05, 05:27 PM	Whoops. Yes, I meant WF. It's been a long day.
Elthbert 04-17-05, 06:35 PM	Hows this... Feat – Beat Prerequisite – proficiency in the buckler When using a buckler in the off hand you gain a + 2 to feint and disarm checks Improved Beat Prerequisite Proficiency in the buckler, Beat When using a buckler in the off hand you gain + 4 to feint and disarm attempts and a +1 to shield bash with the buckler ( this counts as weapon focus for prerequisite purposes this bonus also stacks with Weapon Focus). Greater Beat Prerequisites: Improved Beat (maybe BAB requirement) Benefit: You gain one free shield bash per round at your highest attack bonus, when taking the full attack action Cloak fighting— Benefit--You gain the ability to use your cloak ( or any appropriately large piece of fabric) as a defensive weapon. When used as an off handed weapon the cloak provides a +1 AC bonus + 1 to Feint and + 1 to disarm checks. No other shield, nor any other weapon maybe used in the off hand to receive these benefits. Improved cloak use Prerequisite – cloak fighting You gain an additional +1 to disarm and feint checks when using a cloak as their off handed weapon( this bonus stacks with the bonus from Cloak Fighting) in addition the character gains 25% concealment agianst one designated opponant ( like the dodge feat this opponant can be changed at the on your action ) as the rapidly moving cloak obscures the vision of this opponent. No other shield, nor any other weapon maybe used in the off hand to receive these benefits. Greater Cloak Fighting Prerequisites: BAB 10+, Improved Cloak Fighting Benefit: When fighting with a cloak in your off-hand, you may make a free trip attempt once per round. If your trip attempt fails, you may release your cloak to keep from being tripped yourself. In addition the you gain an additional +1 to feint and disarm checks when using a cloak as an off hand weapon( this bonus stacks with the bonus from Cloak Fighting and Improved Cloak fighting). No other shield, nor any other weapon maybe used in the off hand to receive these benefits. Superior Cloak Fighting Prerequisites: BAB 12+, Greater Cloak Fighting Benefit: If you fail a trip attempt you make with your cloak, you cannot be counter-tripped. You do not need to release your cloak to benefit from this ability. You gain a +1 shield bonus from your cloak this bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Cloak Fighting. No other shield nor any other weapon maybe used in the off hand to receive these benefits.
Vahenir 04-17-05, 08:08 PM	They all look good.. although one thing: 25% concealment is a pretty big boost, and I would definitely want to limit that the same way Dodge is limited - to a designated opponent each round. Maybe even made a 'secondary tier feat' that allows this effect to be used against two opponents. Concealment causes a miss-chance, which is often better than a small AC boost.
Elthbert 04-17-05, 08:10 PM	They all look good.. although one thing: 25% concealment is a pretty big boost, and I would definitely want to limit that the same way Dodge is limited - to a designated opponent each round. Maybe even made a 'secondary tier feat' that allows this effect to be used against two opponents. Concealment causes a miss-chance, which is often better than a small AC boost. Your right that was supposed to be in there I missed it.
Elthbert 04-17-05, 08:28 PM	There how about that.
Vahenir 04-17-05, 08:37 PM	Looks good.
Elthbert 04-17-05, 08:41 PM	Thank you. Anyone else with comments.
striderII 04-18-05, 09:16 AM	Looks good to me. One question...did you determine how much damage the shield bash with the buckler would do? My apologies if I missed it earlier. strider
Elthbert 04-18-05, 09:28 AM	I thought someones suggestion about it doing the same as a guantlet was pretty good especially since it is used in a punching motion. 1d3 1d4 for the spiked version. I would like to thank all of you for your help, I might be asking for more later. :)