Cut-Throat Razor as a weapon... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cut-Throat Razor as a weapon... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rogue Elendae
12-27-07, 04:15 AM Just because I've now seen Sweeny Todd twice (film, I mean...not the stage musical), and I've occasionally entertained thoughts of a Victorian-esque setting--particularly if I ever got D20 Modern (or specifically, I believe there was actually a splatbook for Modern that dealt with past/historical time-period themes), I wonder if anyone's ever created stats for a straight razor (also known as a "cut-throat razor") as a weapon? And if so, could someone point me to it? I'm horrible at creating stats for things like this, so I figured I'd ask if someone did it first, or could give me some suggestions before I go trying.

I know I could just use dagger stats, and make it purely a slashing weapon (as a straight razor only has a cutting blade and no proper point), but there's also the fact that the razor folds up rather than needing a sheath, can be held at a variety of angles rather than being unfolded into a straight blade, etc. that could make it less noticeable in one's hand...all of that make me wonder if there'd be something added to it. It might be as simple as a higher bonus to Sleight of Hand to conceal it, or whatever.

Yeah, I know it's silly, and I'm mostly looking for someone to whap me upside the head (metaphorically speaking) and tell me I can just work with it as fluff rather than crunch, but on the off-chance that someone actually did it, I wouldn't mind knowing. And any suggestions from those who think this might necessitate a bit of crunchiness would be appreciated. ;)
Kouk
12-27-07, 07:40 AM Uh... dagger. You get a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand with a Dagger already. A uh, folding dagger. + 5gp I guess...

In 2nd Edition there was the Knife, which was a 1d2 slashing weapon if I recall correctly.
AngelDust Anderson
12-27-07, 07:43 AM Dagger with piercing removed in exchange for another +2 to sleight of hand. In addition it doesn't look like a weapon even if someone does spot it.

Although this is only for one deigned as a weapon, maybe for an assassin.
RobbyPants
12-27-07, 11:01 AM Dagger with piercing removed in exchange for another +2 to sleight of hand. In addition it doesn't look like a weapon even if someone does spot it.

Although this is only for one deigned as a weapon, maybe for an assassin.
Yeah, that's not too bad. Perhaps you could always count it as concealed when it's folded for purposes of the action required to draw the weapon. You'd want Quick Draw to use a weapon like that. Also, it should probably be a melee only weapon, and have the range incrememt removed.

Mechanically, it's probably weak enough to be considered a simple weapon still. I think the trade-off is fair, and keeps it comparable to the dagger in terms of power.
Cartigan
12-27-07, 12:47 PM I thought Complete Scoundrel would have this weapon, but they don't, even though they have the class - Avenging Executioner.
AngryJake
12-27-07, 12:53 PM dagger, slashing only 1d4 19-20 x2, no range increment +4 on sleight of hand checks.
1 ton ghost
12-27-07, 03:23 PM saw it too, not bad. not my fav' burton movie, but better than avg.

anyway, straight razor;
IS NOT a melee weapon. it is an improvised weapon probably. certainly not d4dmg. no hilt, no pommel, needs constant maintainence (sharpening), rusts easy, fragile, etc. it's for flair not combat. it cannot sustain alot of hits.
it's designed for shaving, that's it. it's not made to cut through skin (well), let alone armor. it is made to cut through HAIR. hence such a thin/sharp blade. yeah, you could get lucky (in a normal fight) and score a vein/artery, but it's not going to be deep like a dagger's wound.
yes, i'd give it a nice Sleight of Hand bonus and all, but dagger would do decidely way more dmg. there's just way more surface area and a puncture is typically far more leathal than a laceration. ironically, i would raise the threat range though given it's finely honed edge, but this would dull quickly. you gotta' use the razor straup <sp?> between each shave ideally.

Todd kicked ass because of Bluff, motivation, and anonymity, not to mention a pretty believable ruse; all his targets were nearly prone and flat-footed (at ease in the chair). i guess you could rule sneak attack, perhaps even coup de grace or whatnot, but he had a major advantage. not a fair fight so to speak.
otherwise, in a knife fight, smart money is on the guy w/ the dagger, not his clone w/ the razor. 'course, we're talking apples and oranges, real life vs. game mechanics. i could kill you w/ nail clippers if i jabbed you hard enough in the carotid...but we're talking a sweet surprise round and the like.

Cartigan, gotta' agree w/ you on Avenging Executioner. if he wasn't, i don't know who is. this is a decidely terrifying build when coupled w/ Hexblade and/or Ghost Faced Killer btw...
AngryJake
12-27-07, 03:52 PM I thought we were talking about one that was specifically designed for combat purposes, otherwise yeah you'd be correct.
Vharuck
12-27-07, 03:57 PM A lot of official weapons that resemble everyday objects (monk's cane, steel flute, etc) have the rule where a person must make a Sense Motive check to even recognize it as a potential weapon.
Rogue Elendae
12-28-07, 06:13 AM I thought we were talking about one that was specifically designed for combat purposes, otherwise yeah you'd be correct.

Yeah, I was implying a razor intended for actual combat, or at least one intended to be used for a sudden, unexpected attack. Therefore, it'd almost be more akin to a navaja (a Spanish gypsy-made folding knife) in some ways. If I go ahead with my thoughts on a Victorian-ish setting, I was entertaining ideas of such weapons that can be hidden while in polite society, or at least are unexpected. Things like the razor, or a sword-cane (those things are just so awesome. :D ), and if I go so far as firearms, derringers (possibly an alteration on hand-crossbow, given size and concealability), etc.

I dunno about a dagger being overall a better weapon, necessarily. Sure, there's the fact that they're a blade constructed more intentionally to do damage if used as a weapon, but from what I've read and seen, daggers are actually more about defense/parrying (poignards, main gauche, etc.), or were adapted from the knives everyone carried for eating with. In the case of knights, they only really carried a misericorde to put an enemy out of his misery if he was beyond saving. And I'd fancy they'd get stuck going through the sort of boiled leather one would wear for armor, unless it was a fairly long, heavy blade. And as for maintenance, stropping (not really sharpening, I don't think, but closer to steeling a carving knife) and cleaning a razor's not much different from whetting a dagger and cleaning off any blood before sheathing it (because if you don't, it'll start to rust in the sheath), and both'll rust; steel that's exposed to wetness in any fashion has to be oiled to prevent rusting, until the invention of stainless (or in a D&D setting, until someone magics the blade).

But then again, I'm more looking for things that might work in a setting where people're less likely to be hauling around monstrously big swords and the like. A man might conceal a straight razor on his person, a lady tuck a derringer in her reticule (purse), etc. in a Victorian-esque setting, instead. Daggers are still viable for that reason, but even they'd be looked upon as odd, at best. And as I said, I've never--for all that I've played dagger-wielding Rogues before--in real life considered them much in the way of actual weapons, anyway. The down-side to having some practical knowledge of weapons, I suppose (Darn the History Channel! ;) ). I'll cut my comparisons off there, before I make myself sound even more stuffy bookworm geek than usual.

Anyway, thanks all. These were pretty much exactly the sort of suggestions I was looking for. :) Now, if I just had more than a vague idea of where this setting would go from here. Grr...wish I didn't have to wait a year for the revised Ebberon. :(
Sigma34561
12-28-07, 10:15 AM races of stone has a gnomeish razorblade that pops sleeve or something.

as mentioned above, shaving razor= bad weapon. good for coup' de grace, death attack, and sneak attack though.
1 ton ghost
12-28-07, 10:45 AM Yeah, I was implying a razor intended for actual combat, or at least one intended to be used for a sudden, unexpected attack. Therefore, it'd almost be more akin to a navaja (a Spanish gypsy-made folding knife) in some ways. If I go ahead with my thoughts on a Victorian-ish setting, I was entertaining ideas of such weapons that can be hidden while in polite society, or at least are unexpected. Things like the razor, or a sword-cane (those things are just so awesome. :D ), and if I go so far as firearms, derringers (possibly an alteration on hand-crossbow, given size and concealability), etc.

I dunno about a dagger being overall a better weapon, necessarily. Sure, there's the fact that they're a blade constructed more intentionally to do damage if used as a weapon, but from what I've read and seen, daggers are actually more about defense/parrying (poignards, main gauche, etc.), or were adapted from the knives everyone carried for eating with. In the case of knights, they only really carried a misericorde to put an enemy out of his misery if he was beyond saving. And I'd fancy they'd get stuck going through the sort of boiled leather one would wear for armor, unless it was a fairly long, heavy blade. And as for maintenance, stropping (not really sharpening, I don't think, but closer to steeling a carving knife) and cleaning a razor's not much different from whetting a dagger and cleaning off any blood before sheathing it (because if you don't, it'll start to rust in the sheath), and both'll rust; steel that's exposed to wetness in any fashion has to be oiled to prevent rusting, until the invention of stainless (or in a D&D setting, until someone magics the blade).

But then again, I'm more looking for things that might work in a setting where people're less likely to be hauling around monstrously big swords and the like. A man might conceal a straight razor on his person, a lady tuck a derringer in her reticule (purse), etc. in a Victorian-esque setting, instead. Daggers are still viable for that reason, but even they'd be looked upon as odd, at best. And as I said, I've never--for all that I've played dagger-wielding Rogues before--in real life considered them much in the way of actual weapons, anyway. The down-side to having some practical knowledge of weapons, I suppose (Darn the History Channel! ;) ). I'll cut my comparisons off there, before I make myself sound even more stuffy bookworm geek than usual.

Anyway, thanks all. These were pretty much exactly the sort of suggestions I was looking for. :) Now, if I just had more than a vague idea of where this setting would go from here. Grr...wish I didn't have to wait a year for the revised Ebberon. :(

straight razor designed for combat? i feel you and all, but, well, it's just not really feasible. it's made to be held gently and with grace for careful shaving/coifing, not firmly to deliver nasty gashes and parry incoming blows.
you'd have to reinforce the Hell out of the blade, and it's not a true blade to begin w/. this would lower its Concealment, etc. then you have a different weapon altogether. that's the main point to it i guess. i mean, it wasn't really viable till well after armor was obsolete and conealment/dmg became the new benchmark. re-engineering it for a proto-renaissance time frame seems...puzzling? i don't know.
i like where your head's at for the Sense Motive ala Japanese fan from Oriental Adv. nice. perhaps as a first strike weapon, yeah, could be good get in a nasty sneak attack/sudden strike, but against even a modicum of armor, the edge isn't going to be worth a sh-t. like high-carbon knives, they'll cut through damn near anything, but won't hold an edge long. ie)you have to sharpen and deburr the Hell out of them frequently. plus they rust fast, a byproduct of the high carbon i suppose. who knows.

i can't agree w/ you 100% on the dagger statement. especially for medieval combat. typically, you wouldn't get much penetration w/ your main melee vs. heavy armor, but after unhorsing a knight, it was alot easier to find a chink in the armor or a vulnerable point to stab at w/ a smaller, more precise and managable weapon than a long sword, etc. typically in grapple which is how a great many fights wind up anyway. for later day combat, yeah, parry away and all, but plate armor was gone in favor of black powder.

for Victorian eras, yeah, straight razors may work, but it's a pimp's weapon. and they're the lowest of the low. parasites masking as high interest bankers really. a man in the gentry wouldn't employ one prefering an ornate dagger, rapier, or ideally, his manservant. why get charged w/ murder when accessory to crime 'x' is typically only 30% of the main offense sentence. don't want to sully one's hands and all that. that's what Geeves is for pip pip...
pigknight
12-29-07, 08:03 PM 1d2 slashing, +2 sleight of hand, DC 20 sense motive to determine if it is a weapon.

And Sweeny is a lvl 6 rogue that got free sneak attacks, it would be a horrible weapon.
SkipSandwich
01-05-08, 07:36 PM acording to d20 Modern, a straight razor is just a dagger with a greater threat range (18-20), just like a khukri with a +2 bonus on slight of hand checks to conceal.
Tema69
01-06-08, 05:41 PM What about +4 Sleight of Hand, but it is not considered a weapon (since you cannot parry with one), and it makes your unarmed strike deal lethal slashing damage instead of nonlethal bludg.? For a Medium character, that would be: 1d3 Slashing, +4 Sleight of Hand.
In addition you could add a +2 damage to attacks against helpless opponents?
How's that?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rogue Elendae 12-27-07, 04:15 AM	Just because I've now seen Sweeny Todd twice (film, I mean...not the stage musical), and I've occasionally entertained thoughts of a Victorian-esque setting--particularly if I ever got D20 Modern (or specifically, I believe there was actually a splatbook for Modern that dealt with past/historical time-period themes), I wonder if anyone's ever created stats for a straight razor (also known as a "cut-throat razor") as a weapon? And if so, could someone point me to it? I'm horrible at creating stats for things like this, so I figured I'd ask if someone did it first, or could give me some suggestions before I go trying. I know I could just use dagger stats, and make it purely a slashing weapon (as a straight razor only has a cutting blade and no proper point), but there's also the fact that the razor folds up rather than needing a sheath, can be held at a variety of angles rather than being unfolded into a straight blade, etc. that could make it less noticeable in one's hand...all of that make me wonder if there'd be something added to it. It might be as simple as a higher bonus to Sleight of Hand to conceal it, or whatever. Yeah, I know it's silly, and I'm mostly looking for someone to whap me upside the head (metaphorically speaking) and tell me I can just work with it as fluff rather than crunch, but on the off-chance that someone actually did it, I wouldn't mind knowing. And any suggestions from those who think this might necessitate a bit of crunchiness would be appreciated. ;)
Kouk 12-27-07, 07:40 AM	Uh... dagger. You get a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand with a Dagger already. A uh, folding dagger. + 5gp I guess... In 2nd Edition there was the Knife, which was a 1d2 slashing weapon if I recall correctly.
AngelDust Anderson 12-27-07, 07:43 AM	Dagger with piercing removed in exchange for another +2 to sleight of hand. In addition it doesn't look like a weapon even if someone does spot it. Although this is only for one deigned as a weapon, maybe for an assassin.
RobbyPants 12-27-07, 11:01 AM	Dagger with piercing removed in exchange for another +2 to sleight of hand. In addition it doesn't look like a weapon even if someone does spot it. Although this is only for one deigned as a weapon, maybe for an assassin. Yeah, that's not too bad. Perhaps you could always count it as concealed when it's folded for purposes of the action required to draw the weapon. You'd want Quick Draw to use a weapon like that. Also, it should probably be a melee only weapon, and have the range incrememt removed. Mechanically, it's probably weak enough to be considered a simple weapon still. I think the trade-off is fair, and keeps it comparable to the dagger in terms of power.
Cartigan 12-27-07, 12:47 PM	I thought Complete Scoundrel would have this weapon, but they don't, even though they have the class - Avenging Executioner.
AngryJake 12-27-07, 12:53 PM	dagger, slashing only 1d4 19-20 x2, no range increment +4 on sleight of hand checks.
1 ton ghost 12-27-07, 03:23 PM	saw it too, not bad. not my fav' burton movie, but better than avg. anyway, straight razor; IS NOT a melee weapon. it is an improvised weapon probably. certainly not d4dmg. no hilt, no pommel, needs constant maintainence (sharpening), rusts easy, fragile, etc. it's for flair not combat. it cannot sustain alot of hits. it's designed for shaving, that's it. it's not made to cut through skin (well), let alone armor. it is made to cut through HAIR. hence such a thin/sharp blade. yeah, you could get lucky (in a normal fight) and score a vein/artery, but it's not going to be deep like a dagger's wound. yes, i'd give it a nice Sleight of Hand bonus and all, but dagger would do decidely way more dmg. there's just way more surface area and a puncture is typically far more leathal than a laceration. ironically, i would raise the threat range though given it's finely honed edge, but this would dull quickly. you gotta' use the razor straup <sp?> between each shave ideally. Todd kicked ass because of Bluff, motivation, and anonymity, not to mention a pretty believable ruse; all his targets were nearly prone and flat-footed (at ease in the chair). i guess you could rule sneak attack, perhaps even coup de grace or whatnot, but he had a major advantage. not a fair fight so to speak. otherwise, in a knife fight, smart money is on the guy w/ the dagger, not his clone w/ the razor. 'course, we're talking apples and oranges, real life vs. game mechanics. i could kill you w/ nail clippers if i jabbed you hard enough in the carotid...but we're talking a sweet surprise round and the like. Cartigan, gotta' agree w/ you on Avenging Executioner. if he wasn't, i don't know who is. this is a decidely terrifying build when coupled w/ Hexblade and/or Ghost Faced Killer btw...
AngryJake 12-27-07, 03:52 PM	I thought we were talking about one that was specifically designed for combat purposes, otherwise yeah you'd be correct.
Vharuck 12-27-07, 03:57 PM	A lot of official weapons that resemble everyday objects (monk's cane, steel flute, etc) have the rule where a person must make a Sense Motive check to even recognize it as a potential weapon.
Rogue Elendae 12-28-07, 06:13 AM	I thought we were talking about one that was specifically designed for combat purposes, otherwise yeah you'd be correct. Yeah, I was implying a razor intended for actual combat, or at least one intended to be used for a sudden, unexpected attack. Therefore, it'd almost be more akin to a navaja (a Spanish gypsy-made folding knife) in some ways. If I go ahead with my thoughts on a Victorian-ish setting, I was entertaining ideas of such weapons that can be hidden while in polite society, or at least are unexpected. Things like the razor, or a sword-cane (those things are just so awesome. :D ), and if I go so far as firearms, derringers (possibly an alteration on hand-crossbow, given size and concealability), etc. I dunno about a dagger being overall a better weapon, necessarily. Sure, there's the fact that they're a blade constructed more intentionally to do damage if used as a weapon, but from what I've read and seen, daggers are actually more about defense/parrying (poignards, main gauche, etc.), or were adapted from the knives everyone carried for eating with. In the case of knights, they only really carried a misericorde to put an enemy out of his misery if he was beyond saving. And I'd fancy they'd get stuck going through the sort of boiled leather one would wear for armor, unless it was a fairly long, heavy blade. And as for maintenance, stropping (not really sharpening, I don't think, but closer to steeling a carving knife) and cleaning a razor's not much different from whetting a dagger and cleaning off any blood before sheathing it (because if you don't, it'll start to rust in the sheath), and both'll rust; steel that's exposed to wetness in any fashion has to be oiled to prevent rusting, until the invention of stainless (or in a D&D setting, until someone magics the blade). But then again, I'm more looking for things that might work in a setting where people're less likely to be hauling around monstrously big swords and the like. A man might conceal a straight razor on his person, a lady tuck a derringer in her reticule (purse), etc. in a Victorian-esque setting, instead. Daggers are still viable for that reason, but even they'd be looked upon as odd, at best. And as I said, I've never--for all that I've played dagger-wielding Rogues before--in real life considered them much in the way of actual weapons, anyway. The down-side to having some practical knowledge of weapons, I suppose (Darn the History Channel! ;) ). I'll cut my comparisons off there, before I make myself sound even more stuffy bookworm geek than usual. Anyway, thanks all. These were pretty much exactly the sort of suggestions I was looking for. :) Now, if I just had more than a vague idea of where this setting would go from here. Grr...wish I didn't have to wait a year for the revised Ebberon. :(
Sigma34561 12-28-07, 10:15 AM	races of stone has a gnomeish razorblade that pops sleeve or something. as mentioned above, shaving razor= bad weapon. good for coup' de grace, death attack, and sneak attack though.
1 ton ghost 12-28-07, 10:45 AM	Yeah, I was implying a razor intended for actual combat, or at least one intended to be used for a sudden, unexpected attack. Therefore, it'd almost be more akin to a navaja (a Spanish gypsy-made folding knife) in some ways. If I go ahead with my thoughts on a Victorian-ish setting, I was entertaining ideas of such weapons that can be hidden while in polite society, or at least are unexpected. Things like the razor, or a sword-cane (those things are just so awesome. :D ), and if I go so far as firearms, derringers (possibly an alteration on hand-crossbow, given size and concealability), etc. I dunno about a dagger being overall a better weapon, necessarily. Sure, there's the fact that they're a blade constructed more intentionally to do damage if used as a weapon, but from what I've read and seen, daggers are actually more about defense/parrying (poignards, main gauche, etc.), or were adapted from the knives everyone carried for eating with. In the case of knights, they only really carried a misericorde to put an enemy out of his misery if he was beyond saving. And I'd fancy they'd get stuck going through the sort of boiled leather one would wear for armor, unless it was a fairly long, heavy blade. And as for maintenance, stropping (not really sharpening, I don't think, but closer to steeling a carving knife) and cleaning a razor's not much different from whetting a dagger and cleaning off any blood before sheathing it (because if you don't, it'll start to rust in the sheath), and both'll rust; steel that's exposed to wetness in any fashion has to be oiled to prevent rusting, until the invention of stainless (or in a D&D setting, until someone magics the blade). But then again, I'm more looking for things that might work in a setting where people're less likely to be hauling around monstrously big swords and the like. A man might conceal a straight razor on his person, a lady tuck a derringer in her reticule (purse), etc. in a Victorian-esque setting, instead. Daggers are still viable for that reason, but even they'd be looked upon as odd, at best. And as I said, I've never--for all that I've played dagger-wielding Rogues before--in real life considered them much in the way of actual weapons, anyway. The down-side to having some practical knowledge of weapons, I suppose (Darn the History Channel! ;) ). I'll cut my comparisons off there, before I make myself sound even more stuffy bookworm geek than usual. Anyway, thanks all. These were pretty much exactly the sort of suggestions I was looking for. :) Now, if I just had more than a vague idea of where this setting would go from here. Grr...wish I didn't have to wait a year for the revised Ebberon. :( straight razor designed for combat? i feel you and all, but, well, it's just not really feasible. it's made to be held gently and with grace for careful shaving/coifing, not firmly to deliver nasty gashes and parry incoming blows. you'd have to reinforce the Hell out of the blade, and it's not a true blade to begin w/. this would lower its Concealment, etc. then you have a different weapon altogether. that's the main point to it i guess. i mean, it wasn't really viable till well after armor was obsolete and conealment/dmg became the new benchmark. re-engineering it for a proto-renaissance time frame seems...puzzling? i don't know. i like where your head's at for the Sense Motive ala Japanese fan from Oriental Adv. nice. perhaps as a first strike weapon, yeah, could be good get in a nasty sneak attack/sudden strike, but against even a modicum of armor, the edge isn't going to be worth a sh-t. like high-carbon knives, they'll cut through damn near anything, but won't hold an edge long. ie)you have to sharpen and deburr the Hell out of them frequently. plus they rust fast, a byproduct of the high carbon i suppose. who knows. i can't agree w/ you 100% on the dagger statement. especially for medieval combat. typically, you wouldn't get much penetration w/ your main melee vs. heavy armor, but after unhorsing a knight, it was alot easier to find a chink in the armor or a vulnerable point to stab at w/ a smaller, more precise and managable weapon than a long sword, etc. typically in grapple which is how a great many fights wind up anyway. for later day combat, yeah, parry away and all, but plate armor was gone in favor of black powder. for Victorian eras, yeah, straight razors may work, but it's a pimp's weapon. and they're the lowest of the low. parasites masking as high interest bankers really. a man in the gentry wouldn't employ one prefering an ornate dagger, rapier, or ideally, his manservant. why get charged w/ murder when accessory to crime 'x' is typically only 30% of the main offense sentence. don't want to sully one's hands and all that. that's what Geeves is for pip pip...
pigknight 12-29-07, 08:03 PM	1d2 slashing, +2 sleight of hand, DC 20 sense motive to determine if it is a weapon. And Sweeny is a lvl 6 rogue that got free sneak attacks, it would be a horrible weapon.
SkipSandwich 01-05-08, 07:36 PM	acording to d20 Modern, a straight razor is just a dagger with a greater threat range (18-20), just like a khukri with a +2 bonus on slight of hand checks to conceal.
Tema69 01-06-08, 05:41 PM	What about +4 Sleight of Hand, but it is not considered a weapon (since you cannot parry with one), and it makes your unarmed strike deal lethal slashing damage instead of nonlethal bludg.? For a Medium character, that would be: 1d3 Slashing, +4 Sleight of Hand. In addition you could add a +2 damage to attacks against helpless opponents? How's that?