Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wyrd Bearer 10-25-05, 11:49 PM	Yep, I just cannot leave well enough alone. As usual, an idea for a project has struck me and now I just HAVE to get it out of my system. So I've redone the existing rules in the DMG for blackpowder weapons. I'm not sure why I felt compelled to do so, perhaps it was that it only took a standard action to reload and I just went from there. Please ask question if confused and please don't be afraid to say what you need when critiquing these but for the love of Nerull, PLEASE READ IT ALL BEFORE YOU COMMENT. Exotic Weapons (Firearms) Cost Dmg(S) Dmg(M) Critical Range Inc Weight Damage Type One-handed Ranged Weapons -Pistol 250 gp 2d6 2d8 x3 50 ft. 3 lb. Piercing Two-handed Ranged Weapons -Hand cannon 500 gp 2d8 3d6 x3 80 ft. 12 lb. P and B Rules for Firearms in General Blackpowder firearms take 1 minute (10 full-round actions) to load in addition to the -4 penalty to hit if not proficient with the firearm. A wielder with the exotic weapon (firearms) proficiency feat can cut this load time to only 30 seconds (5 full-round actions). Due to their penetrating strength, all blackpowder firearms negate a certain amount of a target's AC from manufactured or natural armour. This amount varies with the weapon. Certain feats have extra or different effects when interacting with firearms. See the special rules for certain firearms. All firearms can be packed with extra blackpowder to increase the strength of the shot. These "overcharged" weapons can be used at the risk of destroying the weapon. See individual weapon specifics. Special Rules Pistol: Holds a single lead shot and requires 1 ounce of blackpowder to fire a bullet. Reloading a pistol is mildly easier than a hand cannon and only takes 6 standard actions in a row (basically, the reloader can still move and reload a pistol) for a proficient wielder. In any case, it takes two hands to load a pistol. A pistol negates up to 2 of a target's bonus to AC from either their armour or natural armour bonuses but not both (i.e. a troglodyte is wearing studded leather armour has an AC of 18 (+6 Natural, +3 armour, -1 dex); 2 of either its Natural or manufactured armour bonus is negated if targeted by a pistol, meaning the wielder only needs to hit an AC of 16.) A pistol does not negate any portion of AC that is NOT derived from either worn or natural armour. A pistol can be overcharged to give its bullets extra damage. Each extra half of an ounce of blackpowder used per shot adds +1 damage to the roll (max +5). However, overcharging a pistol is a dangerous affair and may result in the destruction of the firearm. Everytime an overcharged pistol is fired, it risks being destroyed, causing damage to the wielder. A regular pistol that rolls a natural 1 to hit does not explode, it simply misfires, probably from improper loading. A pistol that is overcharged to deal an extra 1 point of damage explodes on a natural roll of 1. For each point beyond 1 that a pistol is overcharged, the range that it explodes on increases in a 1:1 ratio (i.e. a pistol overcharged to deal an extra 5 points of damage, explodes on a natural 5 or less). A pistol that explodes is destroyed and the wielder takes 2d6 points of damage plus the extra damage that the pistol was supposed to deal. Weapon enhancement bonuses will help to negate this chance to explode from being overcharged. A pistol may be used in combat as a melee weapon; the wielder switched their grip from the handle to the barrel and bludgens the target with the heavy handle, in which case it counts as a club. The pistol's enhancement bonus (if any) does not apply in this case. It is a move action to switch your grip from the handle to the barrel which can be made as a free action during a move action if the wielder has at least a +1 BAB. Feats and their interaction with pistols: Two-weapon fighting: Pistols are treated as light weapons if being fired in the off-hand. A pistol does NOT count as a light weapon if being used in the off-hand as a club. Point Blank Shot: An individual with point blank shot wielding a melee weapon in one hand and a pistol in the other may fire at a target that they threaten in melee combat without provoking an attack of opportunity as normal for firing in a threatened square. This does not apply to targets threatened further than a creatures natural reach. This special exception can be used in one of two ways. The wielder may either shoot only the pistol at the target as a standard attack action or may fire the pistol as an offhand weapon during a full-attack made with their melee weapon. The shot does not have to be at the same target, only on threatened in melee combat. Quick Draw: With quick draw, a wielder may draw up to two pistols as a free action in any given round. Additionally, an individual with quick draw may switch between the ranged and melee functions of a pistol as a free action instead of a move action. Deft Hands: With both deft hands and quick draw, an individual can draw and fire as many pistols in a round as they have ititerative attacks (dropping spent pistols and drawing a new one in one smooth motion). Lightning Reflexes: With both lightning reflexes and quick draw, an individual may draw and fire a single pistol they have on their own person in response to an opponent provoking an AoO from them. This shot may only be at the provoker and the pistol must be easily accessible (not buried in a backpack). Obviously, the wielder must somehow be threatening a square to be able to act on an AoO. This action follows all other rules for AoO (such as limit per round). Feats that grant more shots per round: No effect. Rapid Reload: No effect (rolled into proficiency) Dodge: An individual with the dodge, two-weapon fighting and point blank shot feats and armed with two-pistols simultaneously may fire at a target within the wielder's natural reach (5 ft for a medium creature) without provoking an AoO from that creature if it is the selected target of the dodge feat. All other opponents that threaten the wielder may still make AoO as normal against a person using ranged weapons in melee. Two-weapon defense: Two pistols do not grant the shield bonus from this feat unless they are both being used as clubs. Hand Cannon: <<<WIP>>> (basically this is going to be a larger, two-handed gun that kicks when it shoots, does more damage when overcharged giving it more potential to explode messily and reduces armour more than a pistol would) Magic and Blackpowder Weapons Enhancing a pistol or handcannon has a different effect than most weapons. Weapon enhancement bonuses have a different effect than normal and certain enhancements may not be used on either firearm while others are restricted to a specfic type of firearm. Weapon Enhancement Bonuses: Weapon enhancement bonuses at to hit with a pistol or handcannon as normal, however, the enhancement does not add to the damage dealt by the shot. Instead, each point of enhancement adds to the weapon's save against destruction when fired overcharged. <<<WIP>>> (This will mostly be listing what can and can't be put on the guns or ammunition as well as a listing of specific types of specially enhanced ammunition) Crafting Firearms, Blackpowder and Ammunition Ammunition DC 12 Craft (Weaponsmithing) check to create pistol bullets and DC 15 Craft (Weaponsmithing) check for hand cannon bullets. It costs 1 gp worth of raw materials to craft 10 standard pistol bullets and 2 gp worth of raw materials to craft hand cannon bullets. Blackpowder: Can be created with a DC 25 Craft (Alchemy) check. The raw materials cost 17 gp per pound to create (See DMG pg 145 for info on purchasing blackpowder and storing it). Firearms: DC 18 Craft (Weaponsmithing) check to create either a pistol or a hand cannon. 84 gp of raw materials are required for a pistol and 167 gp of them are required to craft a hand cannon. These weapons can be masterworked as normal.
Valens 10-26-05, 01:04 AM	Wow one minute is a long time to load a black powder gun even while sitting and talking to your friends... Id say change the reloading times to 30 seconds. And yes I have shot and still do shoot blackpowder and can reload in under 30 seconds if I really wanted to but usually it takes me around 40 to 45 to do it.
FlameLover 10-26-05, 01:05 AM	Why does everyone base early firearms on modern day ones? Realistically early firearms had a 10ft to 30ft range increment max i'd say and they'd only do d6 to d10 damage. I mean early firearms wern't used for there deadliness - a well placed arrow was far more lethal - they were used because they were easy to use. So i'd make most Simple or Martial weapons also. I do like the "overcharging" option and i'll be yoinking that if you don't mind but really this isn't much better than the DMG ones otherwise. I see firearms as being mechanically very similar to Crossbows but with a x3 crit instead of x19-20. Ofcourse the idea of overcharging makes them a bit better but i think the chance of explosion is enough to even it out. I think i'd handle explosions though that if you roll a natural [amount of extra damage] it explodes. For example if you put in 2 ounces extra (for a Pistol +2 damage) then rolling a natural 1 or 2 makes it explode. I'd maybe even make it add +2 per 5% of explosion since with a 1:1 basis i wouldn't bother ;) Oh and those reload times are *heav*! I'd keep it at full-round action myself but that might just be me. Plus things like Revolvers should be a move action per bullet (so you can reload and fire in one round or load two bullets). For most people it takes longer, sure, but so would reloading a crossbow ;) EDIT: Didn't see the reply above. I don't know alot about guns (we don't have them in Australia besides police, crooks and farmers) but I was under the impression even early firearms took only about 10 seconds to load. I mean it depends how early you go but looking at 1800s it seems reasnoble to only take about 6 seconds to put a bullet in. Ofcourse that's not counting putting in the blackpowder but even another 6 seconds for that seems fine. But a whole minute?! That might be "realistic" but why would anyone use this over a crossbow?
Valens 10-26-05, 01:05 AM	sorry I missed that part about with the exotic weapons feat its late and Im kind of tired...
jasper 10-26-05, 08:50 AM	I have no problems with the rules in DMG. Now it does appear the weapons would be a breech loading (aka double barrel shotgun) flintlock type weapon. But a commoner hit with a sword is mostly dead. A commoner hit with a bullet is mostly dead. However in some of my research on other subjects I have come across an account of a guy shooting a woman in the neck with pistol during the late middle ages. She lived and he had pay both the doctor bills, and her. As with a lot armour and weapons (pictures and descriptions) I just say it is only a game. Just like all the huge weapons in video games and movies. Flame during the Red Coats hated our snipers so alot of people especially Hollywood under estimates the range. And during our war between the states the avg was 3 rounds per minute. On ...Due to their penetrating strength, all blackpowder firearms negate a certain amount of a target's AC from .... how about a straight unnamed circumstanal bonus of +2 always. On them exploding... Sorry too dangerous make the dc 2 and we talk. Two weapon fighting tread as a light weapon club doing 1d4. If you want it I have a magical musketter prestige class somewhere but it based on gun rules in dmg.
Wyrd Bearer 10-26-05, 01:57 PM	Thanks for the criticism so far. Wow one minute is a long time to load a black powder gun even while sitting and talking to your friends... Id say change the reloading times to 30 seconds. And yes I have shot and still do shoot blackpowder and can reload in under 30 seconds if I really wanted to but usually it takes me around 40 to 45 to do it. I understand you. That is why I had included a note saying that people proficient with these weapons only needed 30 seconds to reload instead of a minute. You my friend only need half the time that I personally would since I'm not familiar with such weaponry (I've shot them once a few years ago). And no problem about missing it the first time, its a lot to read. Why does everyone base early firearms on modern day ones? Realistically early firearms had a 10ft to 30ft range increment max i'd say and they'd only do d6 to d10 damage. I mean early firearms wern't used for there deadliness - a well placed arrow was far more lethal - they were used because they were easy to use. So i'd make most Simple or Martial weapons also.Yes, the damage may be a bit much, but I've stepped it up to make up for the long reload times, plus, these specific weapons were invented by the orc races IMC, so they're going to be a bit ridiculous. I think that the damage is fine but feel free to scale it back as you will. As for the range, these guns aren't the first ones invented, these are supposed to represent years of refinement while still keeping them as odd weapons that aren't commonplace (hence the exotic prof, yes, they are simple to use, same argument for the repeating crossbow, but IMC they come from far off and the main setting makes them exotic because they are unusual. Again, feel free to change this). The loading times are long for several reasons. One is because reloading a firearm isn't as simple as cranking or pulling the crossbow to set the string and then placing a bolt in the notch. These firearms are neither breechloaders with prepackaged cloth cartiages nor are they revolvers; these babies are muzzleloaders. Watching a skilled shooter reload a (modern) musket took much more time than a crossbow. Plus, while these weapons are supposed to be more refined (though the handcannon is rather crude still), I wanted them to be mostly once per encounter weapons instead of allowing them to be easily reloaded (which will lead to them dominating combat). I can imagine the first round of combat with the combatants discharging their weapons into each other, then closing in with melee weapons. I'm glad that you like the overcharging idea, it something I felt made the guns better than a crossbow early on at a risk. I do like your idea of switching the mechanic to rolling natural x on a to hit roll and exploding much better than the whole fortitude save. When writing that particular part up, I felt it awkward but couldn't think of a better way to represent it. Consider it yoinked. (Incidentally, the pistols will be a a 1:1 ratio while the handcannon will have the chance for explosion progress much faster to offset the fact that the handcannon will deal more damage overcharged). On ...Due to their penetrating strength, all blackpowder firearms negate a certain amount of a target's AC from .... how about a straight unnamed circumstanal bonus of +2 always.Because that would penalize unarmoured, Dex based combatants whose defense is based on dodging attacks rather that wearing armour and moving to turn direct hits into glances. Two weapon fighting tread as a light weapon club doing 1d4.Perhaps. Lots about the weapons but little about the variations on the feats... what do people think of the feats so far? Are they too powerful or underpowered? As for how these firearms appear, in my head, they are similar to the following Pistol (http://www.historical-firearms.co.uk/acatalog/RA10106Close.jpg) Unfortunately, this pistol looks to be a flintlock (please correct me if I am wrong), which is a bit too primitive. In a game where people have "tindertwigs," the guns will likewise have similar "firing caps" that work much on the same principle, no cumbersome wheel-locks or flintlocks that are susceptible to weather. Close to what I imagine for the handcannon (http://www.silcom.com/~vikman/isles/scriptorium/firearm/musketeer2.gif) (Take from this Site (http://www.silcom.com/~vikman/isles/scriptorium/firearm/firearm.html) ) Not quite what I had in mind but the closest thing to what I was since apparently EVERYONE ONLINE thinks of the Disney movie when searching for images "musketeers." Basically the handcannons IMC are basically sticks with a metal tube that serves as the barrel. While they have a more refined firing system (similar to percussion caps), they still look much like the early "hand gonnes."
Ged Coldplain 10-26-05, 02:50 PM	why do people beleive firearms to penetrate armour so much easier than lets say a ADAMANTINE greataxe swung by LORD STEREOID.... its metal peices shoot out by expanding gasses, nothing more...
Wyrd Bearer 10-26-05, 04:36 PM	why do people beleive firearms to penetrate armour so much easier than lets say a ADAMANTINE greataxe swung by LORD STEREOID.... its metal peices shoot out by expanding gasses, nothing more...Because firearms made the armoured warrior obsolete?
Lord Schpungus 10-26-05, 06:12 PM	There are some really nice rules in the dmg for renaissance firearms. I say go with those. They are ready to go and balanced in a late medieval world. I can't stress enough how much unnecessary work can be avoided by taking a peek at what others have done before and thinking about using it. They really are wonderful.
Terratek 10-26-05, 07:09 PM	The renaissance weapons rules used to be in the SRD too, but it seems they aren't anymore... Anyone happen to know if they're still considered open gaming material?
KmartKommando 11-01-05, 12:45 AM	why do people beleive firearms to penetrate armour so much easier than lets say a ADAMANTINE greataxe swung by LORD STEREOID.... its metal peices shoot out by expanding gasses, nothing more... How about this for bullets: little adamantine spike cores in lead jackets :P Works better if you've progressed up to rifled barrels though.
Ravag3r 11-01-05, 02:42 AM	I've seen estimates on archaic firearms that place reloading time around 20 seconds (3 full-round actions). Something to consider.
The WarOverlord 11-01-05, 08:26 AM	Basically what a Black powder/Smoke powder Weapon is is a replacement for a crossbow......a projectile weapon firing shots by chemical explosion instead of a tensed string, and I don't see why the bullets can't be enchanted like bolts or sling bullets and the rifles enchanted to improve accuracy, to hit, etc like a bow or crossbow or sling. Likewise I personally would like the ability to use a arrow with a 10 inch armor piercing arrow head and "bleeder" spines (blunt scoop shaped protrusions that grab flesh on exit) down the shaft from a 300lb tension Composite crossbow using a block/tackle draw system to allow a average Joe to draw it over a "boom boom stick any day (If you can get 20 knights in Plate armor to line up in a row you could kill them all with one shot...the impact ripping a huge piece of flesh and organs out of each one on impact) Likewise if we wanna talk gun type weapons then a system using binary gas mixture held in two seperate cartriges (gases are inert and non-flammable when seperate)that ignite buy chemical reaction when injected/mixed in a common chamber to propel caseless ammo out of the weapon would be a more eficent system considering less moving parts and the dangers of a fireball igniting all the black powder based ammunition would be elliminated. (rigger of weapon causes a squirt of both gases into mixing chamber, caseless ammo is in clip and fed to rest just in front of mixing chamber by spring in clip...weapon is semi-automatc in design) P.S. the Weapon would still be Gnomish as the Gas powered gun is based on Dragon's breath and the metal tubes holding either gas is pressurized (Think CO cartridge for air gun). Also,this weapon can fire underwater as the chemical reaction between the two gasses is contained in the mixing chamber till expelled out with bullet and is not reliant on air....also, gun is relatively air tight and very reliable because only spring in clip and trigger causing tug on gas cylinders is moving parts. Cylinders are good for 200 shots though clips hold ammo based on size of gun design (usually 6-20). Lastly, while the cylinders can be destroyed, the gases quickly dissipate harmlessly in air unless two opposing cylinders are broken at the exact same time in which a Dragons "Breath attack" fills 10'x10' with a charged6 (a full capacity cylinder set could do 200d6 damage...utterly destroying everything...good thing it is almost impossible to cause both cylinders to break at exact same time...accidently anyways
Wyrd Bearer 11-01-05, 11:27 AM	:mymy:
syntaxerror37 11-01-05, 02:03 PM	Why does everyone base early firearms on modern day ones? Realistically early firearms had a 10ft to 30ft range increment max i'd say and they'd only do d6 to d10 damage. I mean early firearms wern't used for there deadliness - a well placed arrow was far more lethal - they were used because they were easy to use. So i'd make most Simple or Martial weapons also. Many early firearms had bore sizes that today would be considered artilery. The range truly depends on how advanced the weapon is and weather the barrel is rifeled or not. Assuming that it is smoth bore, yes it would be a fairly close range weapon, reguardless of bore and load. Crossbows were used for their ease of use, Firearms were used because of their raw distructive power. Making them exotic makes sence unless you are in a late renisance setting when they became a more common weapon. Unfortunately, this pistol looks to be a flintlock (please correct me if I am wrong), which is a bit too primitive. In a game where people have "tindertwigs," the guns will likewise have similar "firing caps" that work much on the same principle, no cumbersome wheel-locks or flintlocks that are susceptible to weather. I think you are confusing flintlock with a matchlock firearms. Matchlockes were extreamly suseptble to moistre, even humidity alone could render them usless. Although your justification for the fireing caps is quite good, you are making the weapons on par with mid 19th century firearms, rather than late midevile/early renicance. But hey, if that's what you want for your campaign don't let me discourage you.