Post/Author/DateTime	Post
oxybe 05-29-05, 07:38 PM	While in the loo tonight, i got a thought: my d&d char needs pepper spray. im pretty sure the ammunition (peppers of any variety) would be easy to find but the weapon itself (the container/ejector) would be difficult. after doing my personal buisness i thought a bit more and figured a pump-sprayer would be an effective method of using pepper spray. it would look like this: |--=====> (use your imagination) Parts: 1- the pump - [ |-- ] - by pushing this you will cause air pressure, thus propulsing the liquid in your opponent's face. the pump will have to be air-tight to be an effective method of squirting. 2- the tube - [ ===== ] - a simple metal tube, this holds the pepper spray. a hole in end with the pump would allow air inside, thus creating the air pressure needed when you pump the, well... pump. you would pour the ammunition through the hole, with the weapon in a horizontal position. 3- the nozzle - [ >*] - a simple cone with a hole drilled through, this is what will propel the pepper spray. the pepper spray itself would be oil of peppers (green, red, cayenne, ect...) and maybe some liquid of some sorts. the weapon would use a ranged touch attack (you aim for the face), with a range of 10 ft. instead of dealing damage, if you hit, your opponent does a fort save. if he fails he is blind. the fort save and how long he is blind for depends on the strenght of the pepper/peppers used. can anyone give me some feedback?
ClementWillowbreaker 05-29-05, 08:14 PM	Not to be a idea-killer, but there already is something for this. Its Color Spray, lvl 1 Sor/Wiz spell. Put it into an limited-charge item, and there we have it. Modern technology just doesn't work in DnD. But there are all sorts of guidelines for magical interaction and balance.
oxybe 05-29-05, 08:39 PM	true, but in D&D magic can re-create any item. what if you can't always have color spray at hand? this isn't really modern technology. modern pepper spray is teeny tiny, it can fit in your pocket. the item i have in mind is about the size of a crossbow, which does not fit in your pocket. what if you are in an anti-magic feild? what if you are in a virtually no magic campaign? what if your color spray item has no more charges left? there is always a what if. any good DM, and any villain worth his empire, will eventually catch on if the PC's use color spray all the time. the minions will begin using anti-magic feilds or have counterspells ready. having an item with a spell charge is good. having a non-magic version of said item as backup is intelligent. always be ready for anything. if magic has answers for everything, you can bet someone has answers for THOSE answers.
Mellowship Slinky 05-29-05, 08:42 PM	A metal tube shaped sort of like a syringe, with a nozzle at one end would probably work best.
oxybe 05-29-05, 08:59 PM	look at the first post: it would look like this: |--=====> (use your imagination) so any ideas?
Jaid 05-30-05, 12:07 PM	looks reasonable to me. i don't know how i would run this though... probably the pepper spray... uhh... spray stuff would be an alchemical item. if you can make one to deafen in an area, i think you should be able to make one that will blind a single target. probably the save DC should be based similarly to the thunderstone or other alchemical items. duration... maybe d4+1 rounds, fort save for half or something like that... also, this should probably have a negative impact on scent...
Niveus Lynx 05-30-05, 12:12 PM	Check out the rules for d20 Modern pepper spray, as a template. A chemical irritant that can temporarily blind a target, pepper spray comes in a single-shot container. To use it, make a ranged touch attack against the target. The target must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 15) or be blinded for 1d4 rounds.
Radijs 05-30-05, 01:32 PM	For DND it could work mostly the same way. You just get a tube, fill it with something that irritates (pepper, salt, acid or maybe even sand). Blow on one end and poof! A small shaped cloud of annoyance. Though using it in combat would probably allow for an AOO because its hard to put the thing in your mouth and blow. Something a bit more inventive would be to put a small bellow on one end and squeeze that.
Niveus Lynx 05-30-05, 02:25 PM	Dude! I can't believe I forgot this thing! Metsubishi! This small wooden device is used to blow a puff of powder in the opponents face. It has a mouthpiece at one end, a chamber for holding the powder, and a small tube at the other end. Blowing hard through the mouthpiece forces the powder out the tube, possibly in the face of the victim. The metsubishi does no damage, but can be used to blow irritating or blinding powders at the victim. The most common powders are pepper, ashes, and dust. It was often used by ninjas for distraction and escape and by city constables when attempting to capture a criminal. It added to the myth that ninjas could disappear in a puff of smoke. :dancin:
Patrick Draken-Korin 05-30-05, 03:54 PM	Oruighen (aka phantom dust), is a drug in the forgotten realms. :D the primary effect blinds for a few minutes and a applies a penalty on attacks, saves, and checks due to pain in the nostrils from breathing it in). :weep: there is no secondary effect. there are no side effects. there is no overdose. there is no chance of addiction. meaning it barely counts as a D&D drug :rolleyes: , but hey it's pepper spray. check it's description in the Lord's of Darkness book.
kaldrin 05-30-05, 04:40 PM	Why not? I had a flashlight made from putting continual light (called Everlasting Torch or something now) at the closed end of a metal tube.
Crater 05-30-05, 04:42 PM	In Shrek 2, the knights use giant pepper grinders to incapacitate criminals set to the 'Cops' theme! The basis for this might be more hysterical than historical but I was reminded of it anyhow. :)
bgt 05-30-05, 04:45 PM	The Arms and Equipment Guide has a pump-action mister in it. Just fill it with some sort of pepper broth. The DC could depend on the type of pepper used.
oxybe 05-30-05, 09:09 PM	i would say go with the d20 pepper spray as a template. it's convinient and effective, though the Oruighen would be the ideal pepper spray, since it has lingering effects, like the real thing. i like the bellow idea! makes it seem more like a weapon then my seringe. i don't have arms and equipment so i'm unsure of what you're talking about The Arms and Equipment Guide has a pump-action mister in it. Just fill it with some sort of pepper broth. The DC could depend on the type of pepper used. as stated before, the sprayer could be used to deliver various powders, so this could be quite the handy weapon! i would put the alchemy dc of pepperspray about 15-18. the spray would cost 25 gp and the sprayer 7 gp. a mouth version could be made for 15 gp. the bellow sprayer would be treated as a crossbow for feats and the mouth version would be treated as a blowgun.
Jaid 05-30-05, 09:41 PM	uhhh... the pump action sprayer is _exactly_ what the original poster has been talking about from the beginning... look at the picture, and use your imagination, people. telling him to use the pump action sprayer instead of other plans (and especially his original plan) is kinda pointless, because he already is planning on that, he just needs to know what we think of it =P
bgt 05-31-05, 11:17 AM	Actually, the one in the Arms and Equipment Guide Is differentb than the one he has, which is why I suggested it. It holds multiple uses, has a range of 5 feet, and wouldn't reqire a touch attack to hit. Also, I belive it's one-handed.
oxybe 05-31-05, 05:28 PM	one handed? wow. the pump-action meister would, basically, be a D&D super soaker... but one handed? sounds too good to be true. i'm guessing it's a move action to load, one move action to pump and a standard action to shoot? thus making it a one handed weapon? the 5 ft range kinda sucks but then again this is in medival ages. unless the pump-action meister has a HUGE tank, most weapons of this type would drain their tank in one shot. the reason why i said a ranged touch attack instead of a normal ranged attack, is that you are NOT trying to attack the opponent, just lather him in a cloud of pepper. even if you are in full plate, a face full of pepper spray is a face full of pepper spray. i doubt a helmet with eye slots would help you much. only a see-through face panel will help stop the blinding & stinging effect of the spray, and if your body isn't covered properly, the pepper spray will irritate the skin. this seems quite touch attack-y don't you agree?
bgt 05-31-05, 06:25 PM	Just went and got my AaEG, and it would seem I got somethings wrong in my last post. It sprays a line of vapor 10 feet long. Pumping it is a standard action. Its drum contains enough liquid for three pumps. The sprayer resembles a cylinder drum with a showerhead attached. A pump comes out of the top of it, near the showerhead. Two hands are needed to operate it. It would seem It's not that much different in function from the one oxybe posted. As far as cost goes, it costs more, at 15 gp. Oh well :( . At least it can be used for other stuff, like holy water. And it doesn't require a touch attack to hit, which has it's uses. You might want to consider adding a second effect to the pepper spray if the target fails its fortitude save. Something along the lines of a -1 or -2 penalty on attack rolls, will save negates. That stuff hurts, and it's common for spells that cause sever pain to impose similer penalties. Also, oxybe, mace sells at 25 gp an ounce. Just a number I thought you might be interested in.
oxybe 05-31-05, 06:48 PM	sigh. did you read the ENTIRE thread or not? Also, oxybe, mace sells at 25 gp an ounce. Just a number I thought you might be interested in. that is the EXACT price i recommended in a previous post. By the way, the reason my bellow sprayer was cheap was because it holds one shot & it's an exotic weapon (this should up the price, but i doubt the demand is there to cause a HUGE inflation in price), not a multiple charges weapon. at multiple charges, i would probly price it near the 15 gp mark. You might want to consider adding a second effect to the pepper spray if the target fails its fortitude save. Again, this was said before. the Oruighen from Lords of Darkness would make the perfect pepper spray, seeing it HAS THOSE VERY SECONDARY EFFECTS. I don't have the book, but the description given WAS pepper spray. At least it (the pump-meister) can be used for other stuff, like holy water. And it doesn't require a touch attack to hit, which has it's uses. Im guessing you have a selective reading ability because, YET AGAIN, i said the very same thing. quit repeating what is being said as your own ideas. it gets annoying. the bold was my own editing, to show what ''it'' you were talking about.
bgt 05-31-05, 07:25 PM	sigh. did you read the ENTIRE thread or not? Yes. that is the EXACT price i recommended in a previous post. That's why I posted the price. Mace is the highest end of the pepper spray spectrum, used to quell prison riots. Your average pepper spray peppers are going to be cheaper. My mistake was in assuming that you kew about peppers, I should have pointed that out in my last post. By the way, the reason my bellow sprayer was cheap was because it holds one shot & it's an exotic weapon (this should up the price, but i doubt the demand is there to cause a HUGE inflation in price), not a multiple charges weapon. at multiple charges, i would probly price it near the 15 gp mark I posted the "super mister" because it's an alternative to what you had. Also, it's not an exotic weapon, it's adventuring gear. Again, this was said before. the Oruighen from Lords of Darkness would make the perfect pepper spray, seeing it HAS THOSE VERY SECONDARY EFFECTS. I don't have the book, but the description given WAS pepper spray. I do not have Lords of Darkness, and am unfamilier with oruighen. As Patrick Draken-Korin did not give the exact penalties in his post, I gave some numbers that would likely be balanced. Im guessing you have a selective reading ability because, YET AGAIN, i said the very same thing. quit repeating what is being said as your own ideas. it gets annoying. the bold was my own editing, to show what ''it'' you were talking about. I did not intend for my posts to be interpreted as me attempting to claim credit for your ideas. I was merely trying to point you towards a similar concept that was already printed, so that you may use it to balance yours. I am terribly sorry that I have been such a nusance to you, and I will refrain from posting here again.
Niveus Lynx 05-31-05, 09:04 PM	Dude! I can't believe I forgot this thing! Metsubishi! This small wooden device is used to blow a puff of powder in the opponents face. It has a mouthpiece at one end, a chamber for holding the powder, and a small tube at the other end. Blowing hard through the mouthpiece forces the powder out the tube, possibly in the face of the victim. The metsubishi does no damage, but can be used to blow irritating or blinding powders at the victim. The most common powders are pepper, ashes, and dust. It was often used by ninjas for distraction and escape and by city constables when attempting to capture a criminal. It added to the myth that ninjas could disappear in a puff of smoke. :dancin: I guess I was the only one who thought this was a good idea.
oxybe 06-01-05, 12:28 PM	bgt, sorry if i offended you. i had a hard day and i probly just snapped. seeing you draw the similarities between my idea and an existing one, i felt that you were putting down my idea. again, i sincerely apologise if i offended you. i am grateful you took some of you time to do some rechearch and my anger was misplaced. i'm sorry. Niveus Lynx, if i read correctly the mitsubishi acts like a mouth-blowgun type weapon? could the powder chamber be used to hold other objects (like mouth blow darts) or is it just for powder? can the chamber hold powder indefinately or does the powder have to be poured into it just before you attack?
Niveus Lynx 06-01-05, 12:58 PM	The box that held the powder could be opened and filled, so I'm going to guess that it is poured in. Additionally, based on what I read, it might actually affect a 10-foot cone.
oxybe 06-01-05, 01:09 PM	how big is this thing anyways? is it big enough to cover your mouth, chin and nose, or is it just big enough to fit in your mouth?
Niveus Lynx 06-01-05, 01:23 PM	You can find a pic here (http://www.shaolin-society.co.uk/weapons/fire.php), under the shurikens. Sometimes worn as a necklace, the little wooden spike you see is a plug. Ninjas would pull that out and blow in one fluid motion.
jul4tim 06-01-05, 01:52 PM	This only my second post so forgive my ignorance, please. Why does your character need pepper spray? Is she a lady who walks the streets alone with no other skills or abilities to keep the ruffians off? Is he a citywatch captain answering to a Lord Mayor who has to face an electorate fuming about human rights excesses by the police? Or is she a trainee chefs assistant with a mean streak? A culunary(oops) Alchemist for that matter? I have been playing this game for over twenty years now and this is the most intriguing question I have ever come across. Pepper Spray? Why not rubber billyclubs (and I mean the fantasy equivalent!) or even riot control water cannons! Could'nt Ariaxx the Blue Dragon use a new found Taser ability to incapacitate those would be slayers so that they get their true justice acording to Dragon Law? I think this question is hanging by a THREAD and so is your character if she needs to develop humane weapons systems whilst on the loo. What did your Dungeon Master say when you presented your EUREKA?
oxybe 06-01-05, 02:16 PM	yay a picture! now i have a MUCH clearer idea of what the misubishi is. this weapon could be a definate sneakier substitute for the weap i have in mind. my char's full potential depends on being able to hit enemies while invisible or unseen. this is why i want the pepper spray. the mitsubishi would allow me to sudden strike / sneak attack quite often if the save is failed. i doubt it has enough powder to effectively cover a 10 foot cone, but i have been wrong before. so up to now we have Bellow Sprayer: two handed weapon, range 10 ft cone. 7 gp. damage depends on what is expelled. treated as crossbow as far as feats are concerned. Mitsubishi: tiny weapon, range 5 ft. 12 gp. damage depends on what is expelled. treated as a blowgun as far as feats are concerned.
Niveus Lynx 06-01-05, 02:33 PM	Important to remember METsubishi...you'll look up a car. If you just search it up on google, you'll get a lot of information, as well as some pictures of HUGE clouds blown from one.
oxybe 06-01-05, 02:37 PM	well, i haven't presented the idea yet. plus i doubt he would say no, it's a creative weapon that isn't too far-fetched. many builds and characters use diffrent tactics to take down foes. blinding them is one way. my char is a ninja and needs to find ways to deny the dex bonus of his enemies. blinding them is one way. rogues can also sneak attack without having to flank. also, since when is violence the only answer? capture is quite the viable answer. most kings would rather have the villain alive for trial & sentencing (thus upping his reputation among the pesants and nobility) then having some 4 random guys hand over the beheaded cue ball of a bad guy. if i manage to find a wizard, and beat him, i will probly put him in an antimagic feild and get rid of his spellbook. after deciphering it, i'll give him limited access to some spells and make him churn out magic items. far better solution then just gutting him alive. many dm's (as well as myself) offer Exp for non-violent and intelligent solutions to combat. if i could pepper spray and subdue my opponent instead of combat (and possibly getting damaged) i would do so quite fast.
Claggart 06-01-05, 03:16 PM	Way back when..... The old Oriental Adventures book for AD&D had grenade weapons based on egg shells. Poke small holes in each end and blow out the egg (just like Easter!). Fill the egg with what ever you want and cover the ends with wax. I always like the idea. Unfortunately, most of my AD&D stuff was stolen so I don't have that book anymore. Claggart
oxybe 06-01-05, 03:31 PM	an egg grenade? wow, now THAT is diffrent. i automatically like it. easy to conceal, i mean, who would expect a basket of eggs to contain grenades? sorry to hear about the books. i could go ask my buddy matt if has he old OA book, last i saw he had a cardboard box or two of 2nd ed stuff. but yeah, ill keep the egg grenades in mind when devising new methods of confusing enemies. thanks :D
jul4tim 06-01-05, 04:00 PM	also, since when is violence the only answer? capture is quite the viable answer. most kings would rather have the villain alive for trial & sentencing (thus upping his reputation among the pesants and nobility) then having some 4 random guys hand over the beheaded cue ball of a bad guy. if i manage to find a wizard, and beat him, i will probly put him in an antimagic feild and get rid of his spellbook. after deciphering it, i'll give him limited access to some spells and make him churn out magic items. far better solution then just gutting him alive. many dm's (as well as myself) offer Exp for non-violent and intelligent solutions to combat. if i could pepper spray and subdue my opponent instead of combat (and possibly getting damaged) i would do so quite fast. Violence is never the ONLY answer and I Never adhere to this most monarchical of views. Being hung, drawn and quartered is no more than a bonus to peasents and really no more than an occupational hazzard for the nobility (unless you live in Rome of course). The beheaded cue ball of a bad guy looks just as pleasing to the King on a pike no matter how it is delivered! They have Meta-Geo-Politics to consider, as well as keeping their crown! A wizard trapped is a wizard to watch. In this senario we have similarities to the Cold War control of scientists. Kings want right-hand wizards they can trust. Imagine King Arthur forcing Morgana (Le Fay) to churn out Short Swords of Excalibur or Limited Holy Grails? Gut her! EPs for role play is what it all about in my games as well. In fact, its paramount. A ninja is a member of an elite order who takes training from masters who have tried and tested method to the extreme. What I think your character is destined for is a job like the perverbial "Q" in 007. An active ninja may try out such devices as you envision but would he replace a single use (or even limited use) weapon in place of the tried and trusted (probably loved) crossbow. Maybe a sleep syrim(oops) to coat a bolt or two could do the same if a prisoner is needed. A ninja armed with a Fireplace Bellows seems to me as probable as an assault squad of 6 kamakazi Gnomes charging with a Great Sword tied to a log. The Gnomes, of course, are drunk and participating in annual Gnomish Games!
oxybe 06-01-05, 09:38 PM	to the king, yes it looks great no matter how the head is brought. but imagine if you would, the peasants SEEING their king behead the bad guy, instead of having complete strangers bring the head. the faith in the king would get a HUGE jump. people would remember that during times of war & famine. why else do you think public beheadings were so common? both fear and respect. people knew that losing their head was a very real sentence and if the guy being beheaded was particulary evil, people would rejoice as their KING gave them a service. keeping the crown is good, but if no one likes / fears you, what good is it? understandable your fears with nigh-epic / epic wizards, like morgana. but the lowly level 5 wizard is not someone to fear a lot. he is quite able to churn low-level magic scrolls & wands, without too much trouble, if given the proper spells & equipment. like i said, only AFTER deciphering his spellbook would anyone do that, and even then, i would rip out his spell from the book and give it to him under supervision, upon completion, it would be confiscated. a sorcerer on the other hand, would receive a sword to the skull quite faster, seeing as he always has access to his spells each day. this isn't a scientist with vast knowledge, this is the scientist's apprentice with a grasp of the knowledge. the item i envision deals no damage. a crossbow with a sleep spell can still hit a critical for max damage and kill the guard. a mestubishi with sleep powder or the bellow sprayer does not kill. the bellow sprayer would be used to take out groups while the smaller metsubishi would be a ''just in case'' item, used incase you are seen or need a quick, sneaky attack in combat. also, bellow sprayer is more then a fireplace bellow. it is quite heavily modified and has a container & a special nozzle. far more then the simple device used to give life to fire. ninja are more then just ''silent killers'' they are spies that can blend into a crowd. the beggar with a basket of eggs could easily be a ninja, just as much as the entertainer doing a show for a crowd in the square. sometimes, unconventional weapons are needed. a bow, sword or crossbow is expected. exploding eggs and a modified bellow isn't. also ''Q'' devises MANY weapons. i just suggested 1. the others were by-products, if you will, from the train of thought that was spawned.
jul4tim 06-02-05, 03:45 PM	Sorry my friend, still no dice! Seeing their King beheadd the bad guy would absolutly NEVER happen even in a fantasy D&D world! Kings don't want blood on their hands and those that do meet their end very quick. Peasants didnt fear being beheaded, nobles did or didnt for that matter. Peasants enjouyed the spectacle as blood is blood and alcohol would be available. I never fear wizards or the arcane types. My faith sees most of my characters through. However, if your King participated in the draining of magics from low to mid-level individuals, the higher-ups would soon become wise and eventually withdraw their much needed services and friendships. Most Kings dont have a scroll or wand factory, prefering diplomacy to gain such materials. We are talking about pepper being sprayed into the eyes of our "enemy"/"target" Again I ask for what purpose? How many beggars hold a basket of eggs? Your world must indeed be so extremely dangerous that any normal item can become a threat. Is this fair? Is this character? Is this roll-playing (standard action to DM: I look the NPC over...any suspicious eggs in view...how about a fireplace bellows? This will happen after you engage in such folly. The Characters will become overly suspicious of every item. Who knows, a "Cold War Arms Race" could ensue between rival Kingdoms! And unfortunatly it will be as big as a fireplace bellows if you want the effect of pepper SPRAY. You yourself say its a crossbow type item. An egg full of curry powder or ground pepper must strike the middle of the forhead for perfect dispersal. If your Ninja MUST have the pepper spray option why not have him wear very fine soft leather gloves and have a "pepper pocket" somewhere on his or her person where a quick dip and thrust towards the facial area will work perfectly. Something a real Ninja could practice practice practice and deliver most expertly like the experts they are.
oxybe 06-02-05, 10:07 PM	bah! i give up. you can keep on using the PHB's items, me, i'll be creative and invent my own! as i said before, i want to blind the enemies, not just whack off their heads. if worse comes to worse, a blind enemy is one who is far easier to hit or run away from. all i'm saying is that more items = more options. im tired using the same old short sword and same old greataxe. something exotic and unique is a change of pace. if it can serve a purpose, even better. i'm not trying to change the world, just trying to invent new weapons.