Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tc12 10-31-05, 01:59 PM	Many types of weapon that have a d8 damage also seem to have an exotic version at d10 -- Medium size weapons for all examples below: battleaxe d8 martial --> dwarven waraxe d10 exotic 1h longsword d8 martial --> bastard sword d10 exotic 1h This trend even follows with bows in complete fighter to: [composite] longbow d8 martial --> [composite] greatbow d10 exotic (which while ranged not melee I mention as an example of the d8 --> d10 progression) I'm wondering if there's any supplements that define a larger, perhaps d10 hammer as an exotic weapon? One that would follow the idea that it would be slightly larger than the 1h martial d8 warhammer, and could be used 1h as an exotic or 2h as martial? Races of Stone would have been a natural place for this, but while they do continue this trend of larger exotics with the Great Crossbow they don't do it with a Hammer. The closest progression I see with a bludgeoning weapon is with maces -- in Complete Fighter they do extend a d8 heavy mace to a d12 Warmace. It's interesting that they chose here to do d12 instead of d10, but "anyone wielding a warmace takes a -1 penalty to AC because the weight of the weapon makes it difficult to recover quickly from swinging it". Despite the AC issue this otherwise fits the above examples in that it can be used 2h as martial. So it seems that if it doesn't already exist in one of the supplements that it should be reasonable to create a larger hammer. If so, I'm wondering if folks think it makes more sense as a d10 more treated more like a bastard sword or Dwarven waraxe, or if it should follow the Warmace and be d12 with an AC penalty. I think the d10 makes more sense as the weight of the hammer compares more with the sword/axes than the heavier mace, but I'm curious what others think. Thanks. TC
pres_man 10-31-05, 02:35 PM	Take a dwarven waraxe, change the damage from slashing to blundeoning and you've created a dwarven warmaul (or whatever you want to call it). In general, if you want to make a new item try to find an item that resembles what you want the new item to do and use that with slight modification. This is the best way to keep things reasonable balanced.
Red Viper 10-31-05, 03:20 PM	I am pretty sure that there is one called a maul in CW, I don't have my book with me since I'm at school, but i believe it in the weapon chart.
DarknessEternal 10-31-05, 03:26 PM	Mauls are in Complete Warrior.
tc12 10-31-05, 06:03 PM	So this leads to the question of whether such a larger hammer/maul should be allowed to a cleric of a deity that favors a warhammer (such as Moradin). Or likewise for a PrC who gets bonuses with 'a warhammer'. If not, would the above work instead if you chose a size L warhammer instead, via Monkey Grip or similar feats? (I don't have CA or whatever source the Use Oversized Weapon feat comes from that I've seen people mention here on the boards.) After all, it's a larger weapon still, but the name doesn't change that way. If that's RAW it would seem a bit silly in practice IMHO. I guess the common element here is how broadly a given 'name' of weapon applies, given the ability to use weapons of both M or L these days -- and if an ability or class feature could apply to both sized then why would or wouldn't something sized in the middle (still M but only 1h as exotic) also apply. Here's the real scenario I'm looking at -- I want to build a character starting as a Cleric of Moradin (or perhaps the RoS Dwarven forge-deity Tharmekhul) then becoming a Battlesmith. There's a 4th level dwarven cleric substitution in RoS to be a Hammer Specialist -- gaining +2 damage with "a warhammer". Then a 1st level Battlesmith gains the Ex ability "One with the Hammer" that allows your Wis bonus to be applied to damage "when wielding a warhammer s/he has created". But instead of a regular size M warhammer I'm wondering what if any larger hammer could be wielded. If it's a size L warhammer it seems it's still a warhammer by definition, but if an exotic 1h hammer could be created instead I'd be interested in going that route instead. Should either of these types of weapon size substitution be allowed (the Exotic or the size L)? TC
Outla 10-31-05, 06:16 PM	I suspect that the reason the 4th level cleric substitution level was given that ability was precisely to make up for the fact that there is no extra-large hammer for dwarven clerics of moradin to use, but someone wanted that flavor. If you go and create an extra-large hammer to use in addition to the substitution level, well, that's just broken.
tc12 10-31-05, 06:59 PM	Broken might be a bit overstating. Especially with all the threads about super-mega-balanced-heavy swords going on, this is a pretty tame question. Also, I should have said that we use the UA weapon group rules, so generally feats/abilities apply to all weapons in a given group. If you have Weapon group exotic and weapon group axes (or heavy blades, etc) the WF or WSpec would apply to all. Given that, if an exotic d10 hammer/maul existed this would seem reasonable that if feats applied to it equally so might class prereqs or class abilities. In a more real sense, the question is if you make a slightly bigger version of a weapon your deity uses than most people use, and you've trained in its use, would your deity really disapprove? I think extending things to an exotic version of M weapons is a heck of a lot more balanced than monkey grip and all the other oversized junk out there. In any case, besided the exotic d10/1h issue the other questions still stands: by RAW if something says it applies to wielders of a given weapon, can you use the size L version of the weapon with Monkey Grip instead of the size M? TC
Wharin 10-31-05, 08:36 PM	So this leads to the question of whether such a larger hammer/maul should be allowed to a cleric of a deity that favors a warhammer (such as Moradin). Or likewise for a PrC who gets bonuses with 'a warhammer'. If not, would the above work instead if you chose a size L warhammer instead, via Monkey Grip or similar feats? (I don't have CA or whatever source the Use Oversized Weapon feat comes from that I've seen people mention here on the boards.) After all, it's a larger weapon still, but the name doesn't change that way. If that's RAW it would seem a bit silly in practice IMHO. I guess the common element here is how broadly a given 'name' of weapon applies, given the ability to use weapons of both M or L these days -- and if an ability or class feature could apply to both sized then why would or wouldn't something sized in the middle (still M but only 1h as exotic) also apply. Here's the real scenario I'm looking at -- I want to build a character starting as a Cleric of Moradin (or perhaps the RoS Dwarven forge-deity Tharmekhul) then becoming a Battlesmith. There's a 4th level dwarven cleric substitution in RoS to be a Hammer Specialist -- gaining +2 damage with "a warhammer". Then a 1st level Battlesmith gains the Ex ability "One with the Hammer" that allows your Wis bonus to be applied to damage "when wielding a warhammer s/he has created". But instead of a regular size M warhammer I'm wondering what if any larger hammer could be wielded. If it's a size L warhammer it seems it's still a warhammer by definition, but if an exotic 1h hammer could be created instead I'd be interested in going that route instead. Should either of these types of weapon size substitution be allowed (the Exotic or the size L)? TC I imagine that it wouldn't, since bastard swords can't be substituted for long word for such clerics. That said, theres nothing forbidding a cleric from wielding said weapon, but its going to be tough to work with (expediture of feats, dipping into multi classing).
Ravag3r 10-31-05, 09:50 PM	Maul - 1d10, 1h. And yes, it's in the CW. End of thread.
Surreal 11-01-05, 02:53 AM	A large Warmace deals 3d6 damage...
Ithandor 11-01-05, 04:34 AM	IIRC the Metal domain gives proficiency with Mauls, and Weapon Focus too. Could be wrong though... Ithandor
Morlen Crutz 11-01-05, 04:58 AM	Metal domain gives you proficiency and focus in Hammers .. If your DM allows that to extend to Mauls is up to him .. I would think it is fine but others would not .. A Maul is a big hammer ain't it? ... Morlen
Faragon 11-01-05, 05:03 AM	It is.
Wharin 11-01-05, 08:40 AM	Indeed, a maul is a big hammer. If it werent for the dwarven substitution level, i would have picked Maul instead of Warhammer in a heartbeat. And if felt like pressing my luck, i would have.
cysplice 11-01-05, 01:26 PM	I believe Races of Stone has a 1d10 Exotic Warhammer wieldable 1Handed. Don't have a book on me so can't be sure.