Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elric Lornhood 12-01-04, 12:54 PM	We're playing an ancient greek age-style campaign. Unfortunately for me, I am the only PC who decided to be fitting of the era and use a spear/shield combo, for my fighter/bard. The other fighter character and the Hebrew paladin are using long swords, and the amazon has a battleaxe. What would be your opinions on asking my DM to change spears to a d8 to be on par with these 'power gamers'? ;) Or should I just suck it up and not worry about a 1pt. difference in avg. damage? Either way, I'm using the spear and maintaining the integrity of my character, regardless of the damage. I just don't want to end up subpar for a flavor choice. I assumed there was going to be more spear usage.
No-man 12-01-04, 01:00 PM	You'll be a believer the first time you set that spear to catch a charging boar, you killed yours and your friends are all torn up. You could also use a longspear (d8, right?) and back up the first ranks; or make some creative suggestions for spear head designs and work with that Dwarven blacksmith to make it do better damage. Or get it enchanted.
tarkin 12-01-04, 01:06 PM	Greeks did not use what would be called a short spear in D&D. They used Long spear equivelents and javelins.
Evil Bob 12-01-04, 01:11 PM	Granted, Tarkin, they did, but they used them one-handed (the famous Macedonian phalanx in which you had a bunch of guys with one-handed 20-foot spears comes to mind). In response to the original question, I said that spears as martial weapons are legitimately one-handed 1d8 weapons. Since you're a fighter anyway, this shouldn't be a problem.
Tony Vargas 12-01-04, 01:57 PM	If you can't squeeze a reasonable rule change or addition out of your DM, you can go to 'weapon equivalencies' and use the trident statistics for a 1-handed spear (pretty close: still piercing, still throwable, still set vs charge & it's one-handed). The ancient sword of choice, the Falcata, is also poorly represented in D&D - it was really a high-power chopping weapon, like an axe, but the closest thing in D&D (in shape, that is) is the smaller Kukri. Extrapolating from the kukri stats, a falcata would be statted exactly like the scimitar, FWIW (here we go with weapon equivalencies again). To really capture the advantages of the hoplite's spear & shield, though, you'd need a one-handed longspear. In 3.0 you could arguably have used the heavy lance as the nearest equivalent. In 3.5, you're out of luck - you'll need to put something by your DM, a rule change or a new feat, to allow it. Here are some suggestions: Martial Spear proficiency: Two-handed spears (the spear and longspear) can be used in one hand as martial weapons in melee. When employed in this way, they count as 1-handed weapons for all purposes (except thier hit points, which remain the same), and thier critical is reduced to 20/x2. Spear & Shield Feat: You are trained to fight (usually in formation) with a spear in one hand and a shield in the other. Preqs: BAB 1+, Shield Proficiency, Proficiency with spears and with at least two martial weapons. Benefits: You may use a spear or longspear as a one-handed martial weapon. It counts as a one-handed weapon for all purposes when so employed, though it's hps don't change. One of the problems is that the spear (like the dagger) is theoretically overpowered for a simple weapon. If you compare the way most martial weapons are balanced, for instance, 10' of range with a throwable melee weapon seems to cost 1 point of average damage or crit multiple. Based on that, the spear is the equivalent of a d12 20/x3 melee weapon (piercing-only, but also can be set vs a charge) - easily the equal of a two-handed martial weapon! It should also be obvious that a spear used in one hand (d8, 20/x3, 20' range) blows away the trident (d8, 20/x2, 10' range). The longspear is less of a problem, it's theoretically balanced as a simple weapon, as long as you don't value conventional reach too highly - but it's still a two-handed weapon; even 'trading in' the trident's range for reach, for instance, a one-handed longspear would still come out ahead, with it's 20/x3 crit. Thus, the idea of reducing the crit to count a 1-handed spear as a martial weapon, this balances the longspear adequately, but still leaves the spear with a range advantage over the trident. Of course, you could just decide that the trident sucks, or that throwability is over-valued among the martial weapons (frankly, both may be true...).
BloodGod 12-01-04, 04:35 PM	Savage Species. Salamander Spears. -BG
Alchahest 12-01-04, 08:53 PM	one-handed and two-handed spears are identical. it's the method of use that changes, not the spear itself. When the greeks used the long spears, they were in formation. They didn't have to spin the spear around to hit someone to the side, or block an incoming sword blow. the long spears were used one-handed, because they were only being used to press forward while in a phalanx. They carried swords for when they no longer had use of their spears. or javelins to use as throwing weapons. so I don't think that you need to ramp up the damage on spears, just use them like they were used, if you want to achieve that effect.
DM Zoc 12-01-04, 09:53 PM	You'll be a believer the first time you set that spear to catch a charging boar, you killed yours and your friends are all torn up. I've always been slightly confused about this: You deal double damage if you ready an action to set to receive charge. If you're using a long spear, then you give up making an attack in order to deal double damage on your attack of opportunity?
Naeron 12-02-04, 04:57 AM	I've always been slightly confused about this: You deal double damage if you ready an action to set to receive charge. If you're using a long spear, then you give up making an attack in order to deal double damage on your attack of opportunity? No, you ready an attack which means that the instant that they enter your threatened area on a charge you can attack and gain the double damage. If you have a longspear and they continue moving then you get an AoO for them leaving a threatened square. Ready gives you 1 attack whenever the trigger condition is met e.g. "when they get into attack range" and you may get an additional attack from an AoO if they move out of a threatened square.
ClementWillowbreaker 12-02-04, 11:04 AM	I wouldn't mind as a DM if you took a d8 3x crit spear as a martial weapon. You are upping the damage one die, which is less than a lot of things gain when moving between their simple and martial versions. For example, a longspear to glaive increases its die, loses the ability to receive a charge for double damage, and gets a second damage option. A dagger to short sword increases it die but loses the ability to be thrown well and a damage type. Talk to your DM, and compare various weapons on the tables. Hopefully, he will see that your weapon is no more powerful than any other martial weapon, and you aren't changing anything about your fighter- he's proficient with everything.
FitzNighteyes 12-02-04, 11:58 AM	The ancient sword of choice, the Falcata, is also poorly represented in D&D - it was really a high-power chopping weapon, like an axe, but the closest thing in D&D (in shape, that is) is the smaller Kukri. Extrapolating from the kukri stats, a falcata would be statted exactly like the scimitar, FWIW (here we go with weapon equivalencies again).Chopping weapons are usually represented with 20/x3 for the critical. I'd use the battle axe stats for a chopping longsword.
Tony Vargas 12-02-04, 03:36 PM	Chopping weapons are usually represented with 20/x3 for the critical. I'd use the battle axe stats for a chopping longsword. Oh, I quite agree, a more expensive 'bladed' instead of 'hafted' battleaxe would fit the falcata fine. But they went and statted out the kukri at 18-20/x2...
Cathon 12-02-04, 04:01 PM	I'm creating an ancient greek campaign myself. What I've come to realize is that the greeks used a long spear and shield when they were in phalanx formation, because all they had to do was stab forward with the spear. It does not work very well for one on one duel fighting however. For that they had short swords. I think it is legitimate to allow it as a feat, however. Also worth noting that greek spears had a spear point on the butt end as well, so if the regular point got broken off they could reverse it and still use it. So you could also make a case for using a hoplite spear as a double weapon. Other weapons I'm allowing in my game is the Falx (a forward curved sword used by the Thracians, I'm statting it as a scimitar) and another Thracian weapon that is a battle scythe. But I'm mostly enforcing weapon choice by limiting weapon selection. If the spear does more damage than any other non-exotic weapon, people will use the spear... If you search through these boards there are lots of spear specific feats people have come up with, you might run some of those by your DM. And if you do stick with a short spear, carry backups so you can take advantage of throwing yours when it works in the combat.
Orion_II 12-02-04, 07:26 PM	Since it's so difficult, a normal warrior would not know how to use a Longspear in this way. However, we can take from the lessons learned from Bastard Sword and Dwarven Waraxe and apply it here. Bastard Swords are able to be used by anyone as a two handed weapon. An Exotic Weapon proficiency would be more than on par; just take the weapon as is, and give it an exotic one-handed use.
Favored Enemy 12-03-04, 12:54 AM	Dude, Tony Vargas has it right in his post. Use a trident. Its a beast weapon!
Shaftiel 12-03-04, 03:30 AM	After seeing Musa the Warrior (an amazing movie - go rent it!) and talking extensively with a friend of mine who had martial art training with spear, I redid spears in my game. "Spear" is a d8 x3 one-handed martial weapon. It can also be used as a double weapon, but the off-end does damage as a staff. It can only be set, however, if you are using it two-handed. It can also be used as a simple weapon, but in that case it is a 2H weapon (no 1H or double). Does this make it the uber simple weapon? Well, yeah, but historically it was really popular. Now it is in D&D as well. And it doesn't seem to have unbalanced anything at all. Used one-handed, it's just a battleaxe with a lousy damage type (slashing>piercing) that you can throw in a pinch. Of course, you could always try to get your DM to allow an ox-tongue spear (exotic, d10 x3, slashing or piercing, otherwise same as spear). Which, shockingly, also doesn't seem to have unbalanced anything. -Shaftiel
Elric Lornhood 12-06-04, 12:45 PM	The Macedonian phalanx using their sarissa did not hold them in one hand. That would have been impossible for a spear some 16' or so long. Their shields were also quite small, not a heavy shield in the DND sense at all. They didn't have to grasp them because they had to hold their sarissa with both hands. I also don't thing the hoplite spear was long enough to be a long spear in DND terms.
Tony Vargas 12-06-04, 08:53 PM	I also don't thing the hoplite spear was long enough to be a long spear in DND terms. Then the Trident weapon-equivalency should work fine for you. Their shields were also quite small, not a heavy shield in the DND sense at all. The hoplon was a pretty unique sort of shield, but I certainly think it was big - and cumbersome - enough to count as heavy in D&D terms. Besides, the 'phalanx fighting' feat in CW assumes a heavy shield. ;)
Kail 12-07-04, 01:14 AM	Tony, Just a small point. The Macidonian shield was not a hoplon, it was a smaller, round shield. Peter Connely{SP} has some great illistrations in Greeks and Romans at War . The Macidonian shield was, in theory and most likely practice, slung over the shoulder and braced on the forearm while the long spear was held in two hands. Now the hoplon was a beast of a shield, 15 lbs pluss, concave so you could get your shoulder into it and push, covering from the chin to the knees. The kind of shield I would want on hand in those formations. Someone mentioned the Greek spear being too unweildly to use in single combat outside of a straight thrust from formation. This may not be totally true. Plato held in disdain an art called Hoplomacha{SP}, a dueling art formed around spear/shield and sword/shield fighting. Taught by sophistis, he hated the art. To paraphrase, "In things of war, if the Spartans don't do it, its not useful." Courage and a strong arm were his most important factors in fighting for a Greek man. Kail
Maethras 12-07-04, 03:58 AM	The hoplon was a pretty unique sort of shield, but I certainly think it was big - and cumbersome - enough to count as heavy in D&D terms. Besides, the 'phalanx fighting' feat in CW assumes a heavy shield. ;) The Phalanx Fighting feat also seems to assume not fighting in an actual phalanx, but rather fighting in something like a Roman cohort. I haven't really figured that out, yet.
Elric Lornhood 12-08-04, 12:47 PM	Besides, the 'phalanx fighting' feat in CW assumes a heavy shield. ;) It also assumes a light weapon if I remember right, which a spear isn't. So the feat has no bearing here unless I'm wrong about the light wpn. thing. Kail: I have that book (I think it's "Greece and Rome at War"), and that's exactly what I was saying, too. Thanks.
Tony Vargas 12-08-04, 01:04 PM	I thought it was a piercing weapon (maybe light piercing?). :shrug: anyway, it's the closest the game comes to handling anything of the sort...
Dire Hamster 12-08-04, 02:55 PM	You could just take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats; that would really beef up your spear. A note on the spears uses in the typical Greek phalanx: Because of their length, they typically had a counter-weight on the back end to offset the weight of the spearhead. You could tell your DM that this counter-weight adds extra weight to the spear thereby giving the spear more heft, which would, in turn, warrant extra damage. I just thought if you rationalize it, it might make your arguement more convincing to your DM. Good luck...
Wrathamon 12-08-04, 08:58 PM	Granted, Tarkin, they did, but they used them one-handed (the famous Macedonian phalanx in which you had a bunch of guys with one-handed 20-foot spears comes to mind). As someone mentioned above... The greeks did not wield those spears one handed. They used two hands. The shield was attached to a sling that also supported the support arm to help hold up such a weapon for long periods of time. ------------------------------------------------------ I would say the Spear in MUSA was not a Spear or a Long Spear... There was a supplement that had a Great Spear. (A martial weapon I believe) I would use that or create a Martial weapon called a War Spear and make it a D8.
Dęгơs 12-20-04, 05:18 PM	i dont know how much disposable cash your cahracter has, but the best combo i can see is a greatspear (2d6 20/x3 10ft. EXOTIC) from the complete warrior with the "balanced" ability from the arms and equipment giude to make it one-handed (it costs +1 on your weapon). i know its not that historically accurate, but it will certainly show those sword-and-board "power gamers" a thing or two about the spear.