dagger... overpowered? [Archive] - Wizards Community

dagger... overpowered? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
dengarbountyhunter
09-03-06, 09:25 PM Okay, don't get me wrong, I didn't say that daggers are overpowered and that I would never allow them in my games or anything. It's just that, compared to other weapons, they are slightly better.

For example, everybody knows that a martial weapon is supposed to have one advantage (damage die, critical, etc.) over a simple weapon of the same size. So, the khukuri (I spell it like this) should be slightly better than the dagger, but...

Khukuri: 1d4, critical 18-20, slashing and that's it.
Dagger: 1d4, critical 19-20, piercing OR slashing, range increment and +2 to Sleight of Hand checks to hide it.

And it gets even uglier when we compare with other light simple weapons...

I don't know, just a funny constatation. Commentaries, thoughts, insults, whatever?
Dolomite
09-03-06, 09:34 PM The Kuri was a farming impliment that was converted to more warlike uses so that reflects what the orginal equipment was. The dagger has many varied uses and was created to handle them. It was used as a backupweapon, as a main weapon that can be hidden easily, sometimes as a eating utensil, you get the point.

The Dagger is the best of the simple weapons for it's ease of how many roles it can fufill. But its also the most easily recognized as the most dangerous. If I am pretending to be a farmer and all I had was the Kuri then the guards would not be as suspicous as they would be if they see a dagger on my person.
ATynam
09-03-06, 09:45 PM There are loads of inconsistencies within the weapon designs.
Yes, if you were being consistent to weapon design then the dagger with its damage size and crit range should be a martial weapon.

But then again there are few weapons as ubiquitous as the dagger so leaving it as a simple weapon does little harm.

I'd like to know what the designers were thinking when they placed the greatclub in the two-handed martial weapon section. If anything, with only 1d10 for damage, a straight x2 crit and no hidden extras the greatclub should be a two-handed simple weapon.
StruckingFuggle
09-03-06, 09:56 PM The Kuri was a farming impliment that was converted to more warlike uses so that reflects what the orginal equipment was. The dagger has many varied uses and was created to handle them. It was used as a backupweapon, as a main weapon that can be hidden easily, sometimes as a eating utensil, you get the point.

The Dagger is the best of the simple weapons for it's ease of how many roles it can fufill. But its also the most easily recognized as the most dangerous. If I am pretending to be a farmer and all I had was the Kuri then the guards would not be as suspicous as they would be if they see a dagger on my person.

You're kidding, right? It might have been a farm implement, but it's been weaponized. When you buy one, you're not buying a farm tool, you're buying a version remade as a weapon, and it looks like a weapon. I mean, you might as well say the same thing about a flail.
Dolomite
09-03-06, 10:18 PM There is a difference between a item being used as a weapon and something that has been designed from the beginning to be used as a weapon and then other things. The Kuri was used basically to harvest crops, then it was used as a weapon exactly because it was a common tool used by farmers. Part of the Kuri's usefulness was the fact that if some soldier checked you for weapons is not gonna take your Kuri since every farmer had one, now what you use it for after you buy it is different. It became weaponized over time, but it still has to resemble the basic equipment it came from or else you defeat the purpose of getting something that is supposed to blend in.
StruckingFuggle
09-03-06, 10:20 PM So the same argument applies to the flail, yes?
Dolomite
09-03-06, 10:27 PM No since any soldier will recognize the flail for being a weapon, unless you are talking about very early in its creation. There are a group of weapons that are supposed to blend in, yes they are being used to kill, but they are not enhanced in any way so that they can blend in. Or even better, once you get into said area you just find a Kuri on the grounds of the target and kill said target. A lot of weapons of this type was used first to either defend one self, when you weren't allowed a sword or for assasination and you used what was at hand.
dengarbountyhunter
09-03-06, 10:36 PM My point was not that the khukuri was bad anyway, it is exactly in line with the scimitar (1 size smaller, 1 dice category smaller). My point is that the dagger is better EVEN if it is in a category of weapons that are usually less efficient. The dagger could be logically be made into a two-handed martial weapon (2d6, 19-20/x2, range increment 10 feet and +2 to Sleigth of Hand checks to hide it, though the 2 latter make no sense for a 2-hander) way better than the greatsword, which is an optimal weapon.

And you're right with the greatclub, dude. They are like totally weird. First, nobody would want it except for flavor (and they are probably only expecting roleplaying rewards from the DM for such a disadvantage) when they could have the greatsword/greataxe. Second, I wonder how can they NOT be bludgeoning and piercing when I look at the PHB picture. In fact, they are in my game more like shillelagh (a more or less flexible haft with a lead-filled head) and simple weapons.

Another "overpowered" weapon is the morningstar. If you followed the progression (that non-foolproof method again :)), you could make it a two-handed simple weapon as good as a greatsword; 2d6, critical 20/x2 but piercing and bludgeoning. That's one hell of a simple weapon!

Of course, it's nothing compared to the extreme cheesiness of the spiked chain... but let's not delve into this because a Small spiked chain (all of it's benefits in ONE hand for a mere -2 penalty) is more than my DM wisdom can bear.

EDIT: Well, Dolomite, a grain flail, thus not designed for combat, can still hurt much. I would rule it as an improvised light flail if I had to, and the light flail is one good weapon. Maybe you saw the movie Braveheart? There's that part where William Wallace (Mel Gibson) smashes the skull of an English guy with a grain flail, and boy it seems to hurt (okay, it's not a very serious reference, but you get the picture). I agree that as a town guard, I'd confiscate it (as well as a farming scythe or sickle, in fact).
Dire Celestial Bonobo
09-03-06, 10:55 PM The Kuri was used basically to harvest crops

Are you sure you're not thinking of the kama, which is the Okinawan sickle? (Originally used to harvest crops, common karate weapon, etc.)

A kukri is the style of heavy-bladed, reverse-curved knife used by the Gurkhas of Nepal, who are known for their use of it while in the British and Indian armies.
Adam Smite
09-03-06, 11:10 PM You see, a tool-Kukri and a weapon-Kukri will look about the same. Handle, forward curved blade, notch at the angle of the blade. But a tool-Flail and a weapon-Flail have two very big differences. Weapon flails come with spiked balls on the end of chains, while a flail comes with a round ball on the end of a rope. Slightly obvious difference there.
HauptSin
09-04-06, 10:12 AM I've never really cared about weapon stats as to what category they're in, as much as whether they really are "simple" or "exotic" or what have you.
A Dagger, everybody on the planet knows what it is, and has more than likely used one. Plus they're easy as heck to weild as a weapon. A Kukri... Well, most people I know have never even heard of them before, and trust me, they can be a little more awkward to handle.
Then there's what's logical for each weapon next, such as damage, range, etc. Daggers and Kukris, weilded as weapons, will do about the same amount of damage, but a Kukri's more likely to tear somebody open (18-20 vs. 19-20)than a dagger, and damn near impossible to stab somebody with(Slashing only).

As for the +2 Sleight of Hand and the Range increment... Well, Daggers are small and easy to conceal. Kukris, not so much, especially die to their somewhat awkward shape. A dagger can be thrown fairly accurately at short range. A kukri, not so much (Trust me, I've tried. >_> ).
Xeviat-DM
09-04-06, 12:52 PM Take away the dagger's ability to be thrown; that's what I've done. If you want "throwing daggers", use darts.

Having seen and used throwing daggers, and having held what D&D would consider a dagger (a 12 inch long blade from tip of blade to tip of handle), I'd have to say that a dagger can't be thrown any easier than a shortsword can be. If someone wants to throw their dagger, use darts or take Throw Anything.

I don't bother to remove the +2 slight of hand, as I think that's a nice way to encourage daggers to be sneak weapons (and I wouldn't give the same to all light weapons ... I'm looking at you light mace).
jaelis
09-04-06, 02:48 PM Another option I like is to make it so a dagger can be wielded in melee as a simple weapon or thrown as a martial weapon. I also give rogues and bards the martial weapon proficiency.
Heo1780
09-04-06, 02:52 PM Ok, well what about the Drow Long Dagger? Same stats as the Dagger, but with d6.
Steidas
09-04-06, 03:15 PM Anybody here thrown a dagger? I thought so.
CaoSlayer
09-04-06, 03:31 PM Actually by some calculations in other thread resulted that while most weapons was in a 100-105% power range, the dagger was 108%, so yes, it is the most powerful weapon in the game... funny.
__DnD4Life__
09-04-06, 03:34 PM Anybody here thrown a dagger? I thought so.
I have. It is hard, but not too hard, and besides, the target was over 20 ft away, so I had a -2 range penalty, and I am not proficient with it. So, with my dex at about 11-12, I would have a -5 penalty to attack at best. Im pretty sure the plywood would have a couple points of natural armor, since the daggers bounced off quite a bit, so I would have about a 20% chance of hitting. I musta been rolling good, cause it was closer to 30-35.

Not that hard to throw.
boozerker
09-04-06, 04:08 PM Throwing a dagger is not incredibly hard. If you're a novice, it takes a full-round action and an attack penalty to boot (and probably less damage). But in the hands of an expert, a thrown dagger is pretty good.

Just trreat a thrown dagger as a -2 weapon (penalty to attack and damage) for anyone who's not proficient with it.
savant_warlord13
09-04-06, 04:38 PM Okay, don't get me wrong, I didn't say that daggers are overpowered and that I would never allow them in my games or anything. It's just that, compared to other weapons, they are slightly better.

For example, everybody knows that a martial weapon is supposed to have one advantage (damage die, critical, etc.) over a simple weapon of the same size. So, the khukuri (I spell it like this) should be slightly better than the dagger, but...

Khukuri: 1d4, critical 18-20, slashing and that's it.
Dagger: 1d4, critical 19-20, piercing OR slashing, range increment and +2 to Sleight of Hand checks to hide it.

And it gets even uglier when we compare with other light simple weapons...

I don't know, just a funny constatation. Commentaries, thoughts, insults, whatever?
Plus, daggers are simple weapons.

By the way, you spelled kukri wrong.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dengarbountyhunter 09-03-06, 09:25 PM	Okay, don't get me wrong, I didn't say that daggers are overpowered and that I would never allow them in my games or anything. It's just that, compared to other weapons, they are slightly better. For example, everybody knows that a martial weapon is supposed to have one advantage (damage die, critical, etc.) over a simple weapon of the same size. So, the khukuri (I spell it like this) should be slightly better than the dagger, but... Khukuri: 1d4, critical 18-20, slashing and that's it. Dagger: 1d4, critical 19-20, piercing OR slashing, range increment and +2 to Sleight of Hand checks to hide it. And it gets even uglier when we compare with other light simple weapons... I don't know, just a funny constatation. Commentaries, thoughts, insults, whatever?
Dolomite 09-03-06, 09:34 PM	The Kuri was a farming impliment that was converted to more warlike uses so that reflects what the orginal equipment was. The dagger has many varied uses and was created to handle them. It was used as a backupweapon, as a main weapon that can be hidden easily, sometimes as a eating utensil, you get the point. The Dagger is the best of the simple weapons for it's ease of how many roles it can fufill. But its also the most easily recognized as the most dangerous. If I am pretending to be a farmer and all I had was the Kuri then the guards would not be as suspicous as they would be if they see a dagger on my person.
ATynam 09-03-06, 09:45 PM	There are loads of inconsistencies within the weapon designs. Yes, if you were being consistent to weapon design then the dagger with its damage size and crit range should be a martial weapon. But then again there are few weapons as ubiquitous as the dagger so leaving it as a simple weapon does little harm. I'd like to know what the designers were thinking when they placed the greatclub in the two-handed martial weapon section. If anything, with only 1d10 for damage, a straight x2 crit and no hidden extras the greatclub should be a two-handed simple weapon.
StruckingFuggle 09-03-06, 09:56 PM	The Kuri was a farming impliment that was converted to more warlike uses so that reflects what the orginal equipment was. The dagger has many varied uses and was created to handle them. It was used as a backupweapon, as a main weapon that can be hidden easily, sometimes as a eating utensil, you get the point. The Dagger is the best of the simple weapons for it's ease of how many roles it can fufill. But its also the most easily recognized as the most dangerous. If I am pretending to be a farmer and all I had was the Kuri then the guards would not be as suspicous as they would be if they see a dagger on my person. You're kidding, right? It might have been a farm implement, but it's been weaponized. When you buy one, you're not buying a farm tool, you're buying a version remade as a weapon, and it looks like a weapon. I mean, you might as well say the same thing about a flail.
Dolomite 09-03-06, 10:18 PM	There is a difference between a item being used as a weapon and something that has been designed from the beginning to be used as a weapon and then other things. The Kuri was used basically to harvest crops, then it was used as a weapon exactly because it was a common tool used by farmers. Part of the Kuri's usefulness was the fact that if some soldier checked you for weapons is not gonna take your Kuri since every farmer had one, now what you use it for after you buy it is different. It became weaponized over time, but it still has to resemble the basic equipment it came from or else you defeat the purpose of getting something that is supposed to blend in.
StruckingFuggle 09-03-06, 10:20 PM	So the same argument applies to the flail, yes?
Dolomite 09-03-06, 10:27 PM	No since any soldier will recognize the flail for being a weapon, unless you are talking about very early in its creation. There are a group of weapons that are supposed to blend in, yes they are being used to kill, but they are not enhanced in any way so that they can blend in. Or even better, once you get into said area you just find a Kuri on the grounds of the target and kill said target. A lot of weapons of this type was used first to either defend one self, when you weren't allowed a sword or for assasination and you used what was at hand.
dengarbountyhunter 09-03-06, 10:36 PM	My point was not that the khukuri was bad anyway, it is exactly in line with the scimitar (1 size smaller, 1 dice category smaller). My point is that the dagger is better EVEN if it is in a category of weapons that are usually less efficient. The dagger could be logically be made into a two-handed martial weapon (2d6, 19-20/x2, range increment 10 feet and +2 to Sleigth of Hand checks to hide it, though the 2 latter make no sense for a 2-hander) way better than the greatsword, which is an optimal weapon. And you're right with the greatclub, dude. They are like totally weird. First, nobody would want it except for flavor (and they are probably only expecting roleplaying rewards from the DM for such a disadvantage) when they could have the greatsword/greataxe. Second, I wonder how can they NOT be bludgeoning and piercing when I look at the PHB picture. In fact, they are in my game more like shillelagh (a more or less flexible haft with a lead-filled head) and simple weapons. Another "overpowered" weapon is the morningstar. If you followed the progression (that non-foolproof method again :)), you could make it a two-handed simple weapon as good as a greatsword; 2d6, critical 20/x2 but piercing and bludgeoning. That's one hell of a simple weapon! Of course, it's nothing compared to the extreme cheesiness of the spiked chain... but let's not delve into this because a Small spiked chain (all of it's benefits in ONE hand for a mere -2 penalty) is more than my DM wisdom can bear. EDIT: Well, Dolomite, a grain flail, thus not designed for combat, can still hurt much. I would rule it as an improvised light flail if I had to, and the light flail is one good weapon. Maybe you saw the movie Braveheart? There's that part where William Wallace (Mel Gibson) smashes the skull of an English guy with a grain flail, and boy it seems to hurt (okay, it's not a very serious reference, but you get the picture). I agree that as a town guard, I'd confiscate it (as well as a farming scythe or sickle, in fact).
Dire Celestial Bonobo 09-03-06, 10:55 PM	The Kuri was used basically to harvest crops Are you sure you're not thinking of the kama, which is the Okinawan sickle? (Originally used to harvest crops, common karate weapon, etc.) A kukri is the style of heavy-bladed, reverse-curved knife used by the Gurkhas of Nepal, who are known for their use of it while in the British and Indian armies.
Adam Smite 09-03-06, 11:10 PM	You see, a tool-Kukri and a weapon-Kukri will look about the same. Handle, forward curved blade, notch at the angle of the blade. But a tool-Flail and a weapon-Flail have two very big differences. Weapon flails come with spiked balls on the end of chains, while a flail comes with a round ball on the end of a rope. Slightly obvious difference there.
HauptSin 09-04-06, 10:12 AM	I've never really cared about weapon stats as to what category they're in, as much as whether they really are "simple" or "exotic" or what have you. A Dagger, everybody on the planet knows what it is, and has more than likely used one. Plus they're easy as heck to weild as a weapon. A Kukri... Well, most people I know have never even heard of them before, and trust me, they can be a little more awkward to handle. Then there's what's logical for each weapon next, such as damage, range, etc. Daggers and Kukris, weilded as weapons, will do about the same amount of damage, but a Kukri's more likely to tear somebody open (18-20 vs. 19-20)than a dagger, and damn near impossible to stab somebody with(Slashing only). As for the +2 Sleight of Hand and the Range increment... Well, Daggers are small and easy to conceal. Kukris, not so much, especially die to their somewhat awkward shape. A dagger can be thrown fairly accurately at short range. A kukri, not so much (Trust me, I've tried. >_> ).
Xeviat-DM 09-04-06, 12:52 PM	Take away the dagger's ability to be thrown; that's what I've done. If you want "throwing daggers", use darts. Having seen and used throwing daggers, and having held what D&D would consider a dagger (a 12 inch long blade from tip of blade to tip of handle), I'd have to say that a dagger can't be thrown any easier than a shortsword can be. If someone wants to throw their dagger, use darts or take Throw Anything. I don't bother to remove the +2 slight of hand, as I think that's a nice way to encourage daggers to be sneak weapons (and I wouldn't give the same to all light weapons ... I'm looking at you light mace).
jaelis 09-04-06, 02:48 PM	Another option I like is to make it so a dagger can be wielded in melee as a simple weapon or thrown as a martial weapon. I also give rogues and bards the martial weapon proficiency.
Heo1780 09-04-06, 02:52 PM	Ok, well what about the Drow Long Dagger? Same stats as the Dagger, but with d6.
Steidas 09-04-06, 03:15 PM	Anybody here thrown a dagger? I thought so.
CaoSlayer 09-04-06, 03:31 PM	Actually by some calculations in other thread resulted that while most weapons was in a 100-105% power range, the dagger was 108%, so yes, it is the most powerful weapon in the game... funny.
__DnD4Life__ 09-04-06, 03:34 PM	Anybody here thrown a dagger? I thought so. I have. It is hard, but not too hard, and besides, the target was over 20 ft away, so I had a -2 range penalty, and I am not proficient with it. So, with my dex at about 11-12, I would have a -5 penalty to attack at best. Im pretty sure the plywood would have a couple points of natural armor, since the daggers bounced off quite a bit, so I would have about a 20% chance of hitting. I musta been rolling good, cause it was closer to 30-35. Not that hard to throw.
boozerker 09-04-06, 04:08 PM	Throwing a dagger is not incredibly hard. If you're a novice, it takes a full-round action and an attack penalty to boot (and probably less damage). But in the hands of an expert, a thrown dagger is pretty good. Just trreat a thrown dagger as a -2 weapon (penalty to attack and damage) for anyone who's not proficient with it.
savant_warlord13 09-04-06, 04:38 PM	Okay, don't get me wrong, I didn't say that daggers are overpowered and that I would never allow them in my games or anything. It's just that, compared to other weapons, they are slightly better. For example, everybody knows that a martial weapon is supposed to have one advantage (damage die, critical, etc.) over a simple weapon of the same size. So, the khukuri (I spell it like this) should be slightly better than the dagger, but... Khukuri: 1d4, critical 18-20, slashing and that's it. Dagger: 1d4, critical 19-20, piercing OR slashing, range increment and +2 to Sleight of Hand checks to hide it. And it gets even uglier when we compare with other light simple weapons... I don't know, just a funny constatation. Commentaries, thoughts, insults, whatever? Plus, daggers are simple weapons. By the way, you spelled kukri wrong.