Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thurilien Lindoriad 05-13-07, 12:44 AM	Hey all, I'm wondering if thrown daggers get the bonus from the Point Blank Shot feat. The feat specifically states that it applies to "ranged weapons": Point Blank Shot [General] Benefit You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet. The dagger is listed on the weapons table as a "light melee weapon." The text distinguishes melee weapons from ranged weapons as follows: Melee and Ranged Weapons Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee. It sounds to me like a strict interpretation of the rules would disqualify daggers from being used with Point Blank Shot (along with clubs, shortspears, longspears, throwing axes, light hammers, and tridents). Darts, javelins, shuriken, and nets are listed as ranged weapons and would thus qualify. All of these weapons (the former group and the latter group) are referred to as "thrown weapons" in the text: Thrown Weapons Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet. However, "thrown weapon" is a term that applies to some weapons in each of the melee and ranged categories, so it is not a useful term in sorting this out. Is there an official ruling on this somewhere? Thanks.
jaelis 05-13-07, 01:06 AM	When you throw a dagger, you are using it as a ranged weapon, and all your range weapon feats apply, point blank shot included.
Thurilien Lindoriad 05-13-07, 01:16 AM	When you throw a dagger, you are using it as a ranged weapon, and all your range weapon feats apply, point blank shot included. That makes sense, and it's what I've always assumed. But I'm not seeing that the rules support it. The rules seem to say that when you throw a dagger, you're using it as a thrown weapon, which is not the same as a ranged weapon. Some thrown weapons are ranged weapons, while others are melee weapons that have range increments if you throw them. I'm surprised they haven't clarified this yet.
jaelis 05-13-07, 01:20 AM	Yes, I see your point and I agree. By a hyperliteral reading of the rules, a dagger is not a ranged weapon. I dare say no one in the world plays that way.
Garonak 05-13-07, 06:06 AM	The Master Thrower prc from comp warrior would be kinda lame if pbs didn't apply to thrown weapons as the feat is a preq for the class. There are very few prcs out there that require feats that are totally useless for the class. All ranged weapon feats that does not specifically say otherwise apply to all ranged weapons, thrown and projectile.
Kouk 05-13-07, 06:39 AM	Point Blank Shot even works with ranged spells, I think it is safe to assume daggers can benefit too.
bondious 05-13-07, 01:47 PM	From the SRD: Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee. There ya go! Thrown weapons are ranged weapons. ;)
Thurilien Lindoriad 05-15-07, 11:27 AM	Thanks for the replies! I am now writing only to show the courtesy of a response. I'm not writing to argue this point. I completely accept that daggers can benefit from Point Blank Shot! Yes, I see your point and I agree. By a hyperliteral reading of the rules, a dagger is not a ranged weapon. I dare say no one in the world plays that way. You're probably right. There are so many technicalities and gray areas in the rules that it's sometimes hard to know when I'm being too picky versus just catching a nuance of the rules that I'd been missing. The Master Thrower prc from comp warrior would be kinda lame if pbs didn't apply to thrown weapons as the feat is a preq for the class. There are very few prcs out there that require feats that are totally useless for the class. All ranged weapon feats that does not specifically say otherwise apply to all ranged weapons, thrown and projectile. I don't know that PrC, but I take your word for it. That's more good circumstantial evidence. But just to be clear about the technicality, there are thrown weapons that the book lists as ranged weapons (darts, javelins, shuriken, nets). Point Blank Shot even works with ranged spells, I think it is safe to assume daggers can benefit too. Really? That surprises me. Again, I take your word for it, especially since nobody else has disputed you, but it certainly seems to blatantly violate the wording of the feat, which specifies that it applies to weapons. From the SRD: Quote: Originally Posted by SRD under "Weapon Categories" Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee. There ya go! Thrown weapons are ranged weapons. Problem with your choice of underlining! :) That last sentence is ambiguously worded but appears to state that ranged weapons are not effective in melee. That would seem to rule out daggers and other weapons that can be used effectively (i.e. without penalty) in melee. Thanks again!
bondious 05-15-07, 03:09 PM	Problem with your choice of underlining! :) That last sentence is ambiguously worded but appears to state that ranged weapons are not effective in melee. That would seem to rule out daggers and other weapons that can be used effectively (i.e. without penalty) in melee. Well, you gotta read the whole thing. I just underlined the part connecting "ranged weapons" with "throwing weapons". The text clearly states that melee weapons are for melee attacks, but some of them can be thrown, and then goes on to clairify that these throwing weapons are considered ranged weapons, along with projectile weapons which aren't effective in melee (like javelins and arrows). But yeah, I see what you mean about my choice of underlining. Should have just quoted the thing (like I did) and NOT underline. :rolleyes: :D
Sidartha 05-15-07, 05:27 PM	Point Blank Shot has been changed in all but the Eratta (and mabe there also) to apply to all forms of ranged attack at 30 ft or less. One can check Complete Arcane under the heading Weapon Like Spells for conformaton on that. Basicaly all ranged combat feats work for such things as ; Bows, Crossbows, Javelins and Spears, Thrown Weapons like Suriken and Daggers, Thrown Weapons In Combination with the Throw Anything feat (yes Virginia, you can get +1 to hit and damage with your thrown greataxe), Alchemical Substances like Alchemists Fire and Holy Water, Spells and Spell-Like-Abilitys that require a ranged attack or ranged touch attack...
Kouk 05-15-07, 08:16 PM	Yes, in Complete Arcane they specifically mention that spells that make attack rolls are considered weapon-like, and can benefit from many of the same feats that weapons can. Ranged spells of any flavor that make attack rolls can benefit from Precise Shot, Point Blank, Weapon Focus... others too I think. Touch can get Weap Focus, Weap Finesse...