Daggers anyone? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Daggers anyone? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Vintar
09-01-04, 12:52 PM Is it just me - or do daggers seem underused? It seems like the only time someone uses it is when they are sneaking in to a no-weapons zone and want the bonus on sleight-of-hand checks. Maybe they should get +d6 to sneak attacks or something - as you have better leverage for striking at weak spots. still only does an average of 2 more damage on sneak attacks than short sword - and one less than short swords after that. As well - if you get a crit on the sneak attakc - it only does one point more. Maybe even make it so you get a minus when you wield a rapier and dagger - because the rapier is so much longer. I don't know - maybe just me. Tell me what you guys think.
FriendoftheDork
09-01-04, 12:59 PM The only reason to use a dagger would be if there is limited fighting space (see underdark) or weapon restrictions in cities or in social events. Larger weapons are just more deadly in combat.

Why make daggers better than they are?
psionichamster
09-01-04, 01:00 PM while i agree that a dagger is not the best weapon in the world...

i cannot see a rogue type character (or a spellcaster, for that matter) NOT having one on hand at all times...for that matter, all fighter types (excluding druids, for the pointy metal reasons) should have one on hand...

if for nothing else, to perform Cou de Grace actions...working a dagger into someone's throat/head/heart is concievably a lot easier than trying the same with a longsword, and much quieter than a mace/morningstar/pick...

that being said, get quickdraw and fling them daggers out like crazy...with poison on em...and glue

although that last seems a bit of an exaggeration, its pretty applicable...why get into melee combat when you can chuck pointy metal things around

a knife is just NEVER going to be as realistically fatal in a system with HP...cant happen

i love em anyways
the hamster

ps....they're right cheap, too!
Vintar
09-01-04, 01:09 PM Thats why I only made it more powerful in a sneak attack. Maybe only get the bonus on a sneak attack from hiding as opposed to just flat-footed opponents or flanking. That actually makes sense - and definetly isn't overpowered. :teach:
Fixxxer
09-01-04, 04:12 PM if for nothing else, to perform Cou de Grace actions...working a dagger into someone's throat/head/heart is concievably a lot easier than trying the same with a longsword

No offense, but are you insane? A heavier weapon would work all the better for this.

In addition, with a longsword, you wouldn't need to "work the blade into...". You could just lop off the head and call it a day.
mercurial67
09-01-04, 04:21 PM There are lots of weapons which are "underused". Daggers aren't used as much for a reason, they don't do as much damage as other weapons. Same reason you didn't find armies of dagger wielding soldiers, you can do more damage with a bigger weapon.

You are probably looking at it the wrong way. What player doesn't have at least one dagger written down on his character sheet. Generally, my fighter types have at least two daggers as backup weapons. My rogue characters always carry around four of the things. They aren't the best weapon, but they sure do work in a pinch and are easy to carry around. There is no reason to give them anything else.
psionichamster
09-01-04, 05:03 PM No offense, but are you insane? A heavier weapon would work all the better for this.

In addition, with a longsword, you wouldn't need to "work the blade into...". You could just lop off the head and call it a day.

1. um...i dont think so, but then again, crazy people generally dont know they're crazy, do they?

2. i was trying to illustrate the point that a small, sharp implement is a LOT easier to slip into and around armor chinks or particular openings...

as far as the longsword beheading thing...with a normal blade, the executioners of england routinely had to use 2 or more strokes to remove the victim's head...at LEAST...

with a specially designed headsman sword, this became more efficient, and the travelling executioner was born..

this blade was long, 30-40 in. at least, single edged, and had a rounded or square tip...no sense wasting time making a point for essentially a long, thin cleaver...

also, they were one of the few sword wielders to regularly sharpen their blades...when steel hits bone, no matter how tough and strong it is, it will get dull. thus, cutting a head off with a relatively sharp longsword would soon make that longsword less effective without maintenance

a dagger, on the other hand, or more specifically a poinard (think of an elongated, often triangular in cross section icepick) has no real "need" for a sharp edge...its the point that does the damage...all keep in mind the use of the term Coup de Grace...it implies mercy on the part of the deliverer, and a certain closeness of the two parties involved...

im not saying a sledgehammer or a longsword or a bucket of water could NOT be used effectively to deliver the "finishing blow" but with people in armor, ease of handling and a piercing weapon seem to fill that bill most effectively, ie, daggers

the hamster
tate
09-01-04, 05:36 PM Interesting points being made here, but daggers are pretty cool none-the-less. Look at the PrC Invisible Blade, and the Master Thrower works very well with daggers too. Daggers are great light weapons because they are light, small, give you bonuses (or rather less minuses) when TWF, bonuses to concealmenet, and can be thrown or used in a grapple. The point has already been made that eveyone should carry one arround, my new Rogue (who will be a MTw) has 5 of em (and 6 darts). They are a good "basic" weapon that also has a great use if you are going down a specialized path (IB or MTw). In real life all weapons are not created equal, so why should the be in D&D. and if daggers had an extra d6 to SA, or something along those lines, every rogue would only use daggers (generalization), so it makes the other "rogue type" weapons (short sword and rapier) take a backseat, like you are saying the dagger is now. I think everything is good the way it is, maybe a farther range, but that might be too much of my munchkin wishes instead of my roleplayer wishes. ok I'm done rambling :)
Sensei Gith
09-01-04, 06:23 PM Daggers underpowered? Hardly.

On a strict scale of power, they are in line with martial weapons. The 1d4 damage, improved crit range, and thrown capability qualify it to be in the same class as the shortsword even before the concealment bonus. Yet even a sorcerer can use one.

You are correct in that straight tanks will not get much use out of daggers. That is not their purpose. They are deadliest in the hands of a rogue. Why use them instead of the shortsword, which does one more point of damage on average? You can throw them. This ability is not to be underestimated. This capability can deliver you an easy full sneak attack on the first round if you're not near an opponent, or you can move in to flank.

Daggers, in short, are a finesseable melee weapon with a bonus to sleight of hand that can be used at a range of up to 50 feet if desired. What more could a rogue want?

I have yet to see a rogue IMC who does not fight with daggers.
Jinlong
09-01-04, 08:55 PM Daggers underpowered? Hardly.

On a strict scale of power, they are in line with martial weapons. The 1d4 damage, improved crit range, and thrown capability qualify it to be in the same class as the shortsword even before the concealment bonus. Yet even a sorcerer can use one.

You are correct in that straight tanks will not get much use out of daggers. That is not their purpose. They are deadliest in the hands of a rogue. Why use them instead of the shortsword, which does one more point of damage on average? You can throw them. This ability is not to be underestimated. This capability can deliver you an easy full sneak attack on the first round if you're not near an opponent, or you can move in to flank.

Unfortunately, RAW, you cannot use thrown weapons for flank or feint sneak attack damage. They only work when the opponent actually isn't aware of you.

If you want to make daggers more powerful for the rogues, change the 'subtle sword' in DMG into the 'Subtle Knife', and lower its price by a third or a half. Or else allow all attacks made in the first round after drawing a concealed weapons to be sneak attacks.
Ipsissimus
09-01-04, 09:42 PM If you want dagger sneak attack I strongly suggest you look at the CW, the invisible blade gives you bonuses for daggers.

Otherwise, it's...a...dagger. A simple wpn that can be used for so many different purposes. Finesse, focus, thrown, palmed, and if you're cool you can spin it in the middle of your palm.

It's too simple of a weapon to have any bonus abilities, like a spiked chain, a whip, a manti, or duom. Those are all exotic because they tend to do more than the ordinary weapons do.

Most sneak attackers use a rapier for the threat range and better damage over a dagger.
Sensei Gith
09-01-04, 09:55 PM Unfortunately, RAW, you cannot use thrown weapons for flank or feint sneak attack damage. They only work when the opponent actually isn't aware of you.

The idea is that you can throw the daggers on the first round if you win initiative (and, being a rogue, you'll almost certainly act when at least one of the opponents is flat-footed). It's extremely unlikely that you'll start out next to an opponent, so throwing daggers and similar weapons are the only way to get off a full sneak attack in the first round short of a dedicated ranged weapon. With a normal melee weapon, you can only get one sneak attack instead of a potential six with TWF, and if they survive they can full-attack you unless you use spring attack.

When in melee, you can use them to flank and feint the same as any other weapon. It will deal one point less damage, but that doesn't matter much when you have all of those sneak attack dice.
FriendoftheDork
09-01-04, 10:16 PM hmm, the point that daggers may be easier to penetrate armor is actually not that bad. No, armies never wielded daggers as a primary weapon, but I've seen loads of medieval paintings where a soldier uses a dagger to kill a foe in heavy armor lying down on the ground (not helpless by D&D standards but weaponless and pinned). Then again armor doesen't help when you perform coup-de grace so....

In any case seems it's a waste of time adjusting the dagger, it works fine in the rules IMO.
Vintar
09-01-04, 11:24 PM as well - it was common for foot-soldiers to mob a knight with daggers - stabbing chinks of the armor in his legs then pulling him down
Dark Cyril
09-02-04, 12:21 AM When using a system as abstract as HP, any weapon is underpowered. Not just these games, but Hollywood has destroyed the image of weapons being not as deadly as they are. A single solid hit with most any weapon would be enough to put most people down for the count, if not kill them outright. It merely became an issue of what weapon(s) you were most proficient with and/or which weapon(s) was the most convenient for the job at hand. A huge battle axe was not always better than a dagger.
Incenjucar
09-02-04, 12:26 AM Considering Beowulf used a dagger, of all things, to kill off the dragon that gave him that fatal wound...
Dark Cyril
09-02-04, 12:33 AM To borrow a line from one of my favorite movies:

"Exactly!" - Raiden.

Now back on topic.
Fixxxer
09-02-04, 12:38 AM When using a system as abstract as HP, any weapon is underpowered. Not just these games, but Hollywood has destroyed the image of weapons being not as deadly as they are. A single solid hit with most any weapon would be enough to put most people down for the count, if not kill them outright. It merely became an issue of what weapon(s) you were most proficient with and/or which weapon(s) was the most convenient for the job at hand. A huge battle axe was not always better than a dagger.

This is exactly why I like the Conan d20. Eventually, your HP maxes out and you don't gain any more. As well, the average weapon does 3d6 or 2d10 damage. Armor doesn't make you harder to hit (much), it reduces the damage you take when you get hit....it's a brutal combat system....and it has a very brutal magic system to match.
deusxmachina
09-02-04, 05:17 AM Maybe they should get +d6 to sneak attacks or something - as you have better leverage for striking at weak spots.

The being more accurate to hit weak spots in armor is interesting, but "leverage" isn't the word to use. Bigger weapons have more leverage, which is why no one chops wood with a dagger.

Adding an entire extra d6 just for using a dagger seems a bit much. Maybe a +1 or something, but +d6 is a lot.

A couple posts in this thread reminded me of an article in a ninja magazine years ago. The article was some how-to tips on fighting someone who had a knife. If they come at you this way, you should do this or that, etc. And then the ninja grandmaster guy wrote something like, "Knives are very dangerous, and these tactics are a last-resort type of thing. I'd write an article on what to do against someone with a sword if you're unarmed, but in almost all cases the only thing to do is run away as fast as possible." Kinda helps clarify the real-life difference between a knife and a sword.
Bartleby_GoC
09-02-04, 12:52 PM I once found a diagram of the various places where knives have traditionally been carried. It may have been in an encyclopedia or something, because there was a key that listed which culture used what location most often. There were over 20 locations! That's without hiding them in places like sword hilts, quivers, and ponytails. That's 20 hidden weapons that can be used in melee or ranged combat. Hand over most of them and still keep a couple hidden.

You wouldn't want to take one into a swordfight, but you would for a fistfight. You can throw 'em, use them as pitons, door/lock spikes, improvised lockpicks, eating utensils (there were no dinner forks in medieval times, you used your knife), craft tools.

The simple dagger is a basic survival tool, cutting rope, cleaning meat and fish, digging out tubers and roots, carving trail symbols. Tie one to the end of a stick and you have a spear. Tie one perpendicular to the end of a stick and you have a makeshift pick (hard dirt, not stone). You can hollow out water containers, use it to aid healing checks (like diffing out arrows or howler quills), and cut up bandages.

Bob the barbarian may not wade into battle with a dagger, but every character will need one eventually. Rogues with less that four are under-dressed.

Regarding the ease of use to find holes in armor: I see that as a function of weapon finess. With a high enough dex to make it worth taking the feat, you will also significantly improve your chances of confirming the critical, since all you have to do with the second roll is hit. There's your extra damage.

The dagger is certainly underappreciated. As a weapon, no it doesn't really measure up to others. As a tool, it's one of the most useful things in all of D&D, and I don't think anyone gets the -4 improvised weapon penalty when using it.

Bartleby
Warspite
09-02-04, 01:27 PM The reason why a dagger is not a more effective weapon and will never dominate combat is a little thing called reach.

The whole point of combat is to do unto others before they can do it unto you. This is also the reason why the rapier came to dominate sword fighting once armor became moot. Sure you can cut my head off with your clamor but I can lunge with my rapier and recover before you can take my head off so I win. (see the end battle in Rob Roy for a demonstration.)

Daggers grant you barely more reach than a hand in a straight fight.

If you want to identify a historically dominant weapon that gets the short shrift in most fantasy it is the spear. Cheap, easy to use, lots of reach, can be thrown, can be used as an improvised quarter staff inside of its reach range. In a fantasy setting with a longer head it can even provide all three basic types of damage, piercing with the tip, slashing with the edge of the head, and bludgeoning with the haft. Yet spear duals were never popular, go figure.

The dagger has it's place and is quite effective in its role in the rules. No modification is required.

Warspite
LadyoftheHighForest
09-02-04, 01:35 PM I think the daggar is very useful just as it is. And in response to an earlier post...: Sneak Attack dammage works ANY time your opponant is denied their dexterity bonus against you. So if you plan with your party, you can do all sorts of cute little tricks with them.

Thank You
Walnut
09-02-04, 04:18 PM All my characters have daggers as a matter of principal. It's a utility.

Also, I (and my group) are not believers in the 'golf bag' of weapons--I have my chosen weapon or two, then use light weapons to plug the gaps. If I need them or think I might I carry a silvered dagger, and a cold iron one, or whatever else I've come across that helps in those less common damage-reduction situations. They're compact, easy to keep at hand, and just sensible.
Sensei Gith
09-02-04, 04:33 PM Weapon speed and weapon reach are assumed by the game designers to cancel each other out, so neither is supposed to be a real factor.

I simply don't understand why someone would think of daggers as underpowered. They're no more or less so than any other light weapon.
Zed
09-02-04, 04:52 PM The daggers purpose can be as simple to cut the rope the heroes are using to climb with.

The real meaning of the dagger is to be a secondary weapon/tool.

Try to cut rope with that greatclub. :D
FriendoftheDork
09-02-04, 09:59 PM ehm, the dagger is not simple... and it's NOT an eating utensil! Daggers are double-edged thrust/stabbing weapon made to kill people. Commoners don't all wear daggers, they wear knives. Knives are more general purpose tools as well as weapons. Keep that in mind and respect the dagger!

Today in my game a vampire spawn dominated the lvl2/1 fighter rogue who was wearing nothing but a silvered dagger and a nice dress to attack the party. They had a hard time subduing her, and later when she got hold on a spear she even killed one of them (a Web spell and a tanglefoot bag stopped her in the end). The one killed was a lathander cleric that didn't want to "manhandle her". Just on a side note.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vintar 09-01-04, 12:52 PM	Is it just me - or do daggers seem underused? It seems like the only time someone uses it is when they are sneaking in to a no-weapons zone and want the bonus on sleight-of-hand checks. Maybe they should get +d6 to sneak attacks or something - as you have better leverage for striking at weak spots. still only does an average of 2 more damage on sneak attacks than short sword - and one less than short swords after that. As well - if you get a crit on the sneak attakc - it only does one point more. Maybe even make it so you get a minus when you wield a rapier and dagger - because the rapier is so much longer. I don't know - maybe just me. Tell me what you guys think.
FriendoftheDork 09-01-04, 12:59 PM	The only reason to use a dagger would be if there is limited fighting space (see underdark) or weapon restrictions in cities or in social events. Larger weapons are just more deadly in combat. Why make daggers better than they are?
psionichamster 09-01-04, 01:00 PM	while i agree that a dagger is not the best weapon in the world... i cannot see a rogue type character (or a spellcaster, for that matter) NOT having one on hand at all times...for that matter, all fighter types (excluding druids, for the pointy metal reasons) should have one on hand... if for nothing else, to perform Cou de Grace actions...working a dagger into someone's throat/head/heart is concievably a lot easier than trying the same with a longsword, and much quieter than a mace/morningstar/pick... that being said, get quickdraw and fling them daggers out like crazy...with poison on em...and glue although that last seems a bit of an exaggeration, its pretty applicable...why get into melee combat when you can chuck pointy metal things around a knife is just NEVER going to be as realistically fatal in a system with HP...cant happen i love em anyways the hamster ps....they're right cheap, too!
Vintar 09-01-04, 01:09 PM	Thats why I only made it more powerful in a sneak attack. Maybe only get the bonus on a sneak attack from hiding as opposed to just flat-footed opponents or flanking. That actually makes sense - and definetly isn't overpowered. :teach:
Fixxxer 09-01-04, 04:12 PM	if for nothing else, to perform Cou de Grace actions...working a dagger into someone's throat/head/heart is concievably a lot easier than trying the same with a longsword No offense, but are you insane? A heavier weapon would work all the better for this. In addition, with a longsword, you wouldn't need to "work the blade into...". You could just lop off the head and call it a day.
mercurial67 09-01-04, 04:21 PM	There are lots of weapons which are "underused". Daggers aren't used as much for a reason, they don't do as much damage as other weapons. Same reason you didn't find armies of dagger wielding soldiers, you can do more damage with a bigger weapon. You are probably looking at it the wrong way. What player doesn't have at least one dagger written down on his character sheet. Generally, my fighter types have at least two daggers as backup weapons. My rogue characters always carry around four of the things. They aren't the best weapon, but they sure do work in a pinch and are easy to carry around. There is no reason to give them anything else.
psionichamster 09-01-04, 05:03 PM	No offense, but are you insane? A heavier weapon would work all the better for this. In addition, with a longsword, you wouldn't need to "work the blade into...". You could just lop off the head and call it a day. 1. um...i dont think so, but then again, crazy people generally dont know they're crazy, do they? 2. i was trying to illustrate the point that a small, sharp implement is a LOT easier to slip into and around armor chinks or particular openings... as far as the longsword beheading thing...with a normal blade, the executioners of england routinely had to use 2 or more strokes to remove the victim's head...at LEAST... with a specially designed headsman sword, this became more efficient, and the travelling executioner was born.. this blade was long, 30-40 in. at least, single edged, and had a rounded or square tip...no sense wasting time making a point for essentially a long, thin cleaver... also, they were one of the few sword wielders to regularly sharpen their blades...when steel hits bone, no matter how tough and strong it is, it will get dull. thus, cutting a head off with a relatively sharp longsword would soon make that longsword less effective without maintenance a dagger, on the other hand, or more specifically a poinard (think of an elongated, often triangular in cross section icepick) has no real "need" for a sharp edge...its the point that does the damage...all keep in mind the use of the term Coup de Grace...it implies mercy on the part of the deliverer, and a certain closeness of the two parties involved... im not saying a sledgehammer or a longsword or a bucket of water could NOT be used effectively to deliver the "finishing blow" but with people in armor, ease of handling and a piercing weapon seem to fill that bill most effectively, ie, daggers the hamster
tate 09-01-04, 05:36 PM	Interesting points being made here, but daggers are pretty cool none-the-less. Look at the PrC Invisible Blade, and the Master Thrower works very well with daggers too. Daggers are great light weapons because they are light, small, give you bonuses (or rather less minuses) when TWF, bonuses to concealmenet, and can be thrown or used in a grapple. The point has already been made that eveyone should carry one arround, my new Rogue (who will be a MTw) has 5 of em (and 6 darts). They are a good "basic" weapon that also has a great use if you are going down a specialized path (IB or MTw). In real life all weapons are not created equal, so why should the be in D&D. and if daggers had an extra d6 to SA, or something along those lines, every rogue would only use daggers (generalization), so it makes the other "rogue type" weapons (short sword and rapier) take a backseat, like you are saying the dagger is now. I think everything is good the way it is, maybe a farther range, but that might be too much of my munchkin wishes instead of my roleplayer wishes. ok I'm done rambling :)
Sensei Gith 09-01-04, 06:23 PM	Daggers underpowered? Hardly. On a strict scale of power, they are in line with martial weapons. The 1d4 damage, improved crit range, and thrown capability qualify it to be in the same class as the shortsword even before the concealment bonus. Yet even a sorcerer can use one. You are correct in that straight tanks will not get much use out of daggers. That is not their purpose. They are deadliest in the hands of a rogue. Why use them instead of the shortsword, which does one more point of damage on average? You can throw them. This ability is not to be underestimated. This capability can deliver you an easy full sneak attack on the first round if you're not near an opponent, or you can move in to flank. Daggers, in short, are a finesseable melee weapon with a bonus to sleight of hand that can be used at a range of up to 50 feet if desired. What more could a rogue want? I have yet to see a rogue IMC who does not fight with daggers.
Jinlong 09-01-04, 08:55 PM	Daggers underpowered? Hardly. On a strict scale of power, they are in line with martial weapons. The 1d4 damage, improved crit range, and thrown capability qualify it to be in the same class as the shortsword even before the concealment bonus. Yet even a sorcerer can use one. You are correct in that straight tanks will not get much use out of daggers. That is not their purpose. They are deadliest in the hands of a rogue. Why use them instead of the shortsword, which does one more point of damage on average? You can throw them. This ability is not to be underestimated. This capability can deliver you an easy full sneak attack on the first round if you're not near an opponent, or you can move in to flank. Unfortunately, RAW, you cannot use thrown weapons for flank or feint sneak attack damage. They only work when the opponent actually isn't aware of you. If you want to make daggers more powerful for the rogues, change the 'subtle sword' in DMG into the 'Subtle Knife', and lower its price by a third or a half. Or else allow all attacks made in the first round after drawing a concealed weapons to be sneak attacks.
Ipsissimus 09-01-04, 09:42 PM	If you want dagger sneak attack I strongly suggest you look at the CW, the invisible blade gives you bonuses for daggers. Otherwise, it's...a...dagger. A simple wpn that can be used for so many different purposes. Finesse, focus, thrown, palmed, and if you're cool you can spin it in the middle of your palm. It's too simple of a weapon to have any bonus abilities, like a spiked chain, a whip, a manti, or duom. Those are all exotic because they tend to do more than the ordinary weapons do. Most sneak attackers use a rapier for the threat range and better damage over a dagger.
Sensei Gith 09-01-04, 09:55 PM	Unfortunately, RAW, you cannot use thrown weapons for flank or feint sneak attack damage. They only work when the opponent actually isn't aware of you. The idea is that you can throw the daggers on the first round if you win initiative (and, being a rogue, you'll almost certainly act when at least one of the opponents is flat-footed). It's extremely unlikely that you'll start out next to an opponent, so throwing daggers and similar weapons are the only way to get off a full sneak attack in the first round short of a dedicated ranged weapon. With a normal melee weapon, you can only get one sneak attack instead of a potential six with TWF, and if they survive they can full-attack you unless you use spring attack. When in melee, you can use them to flank and feint the same as any other weapon. It will deal one point less damage, but that doesn't matter much when you have all of those sneak attack dice.
FriendoftheDork 09-01-04, 10:16 PM	hmm, the point that daggers may be easier to penetrate armor is actually not that bad. No, armies never wielded daggers as a primary weapon, but I've seen loads of medieval paintings where a soldier uses a dagger to kill a foe in heavy armor lying down on the ground (not helpless by D&D standards but weaponless and pinned). Then again armor doesen't help when you perform coup-de grace so.... In any case seems it's a waste of time adjusting the dagger, it works fine in the rules IMO.
Vintar 09-01-04, 11:24 PM	as well - it was common for foot-soldiers to mob a knight with daggers - stabbing chinks of the armor in his legs then pulling him down
Dark Cyril 09-02-04, 12:21 AM	When using a system as abstract as HP, any weapon is underpowered. Not just these games, but Hollywood has destroyed the image of weapons being not as deadly as they are. A single solid hit with most any weapon would be enough to put most people down for the count, if not kill them outright. It merely became an issue of what weapon(s) you were most proficient with and/or which weapon(s) was the most convenient for the job at hand. A huge battle axe was not always better than a dagger.
Incenjucar 09-02-04, 12:26 AM	Considering Beowulf used a dagger, of all things, to kill off the dragon that gave him that fatal wound...
Dark Cyril 09-02-04, 12:33 AM	To borrow a line from one of my favorite movies: "Exactly!" - Raiden. Now back on topic.
Fixxxer 09-02-04, 12:38 AM	When using a system as abstract as HP, any weapon is underpowered. Not just these games, but Hollywood has destroyed the image of weapons being not as deadly as they are. A single solid hit with most any weapon would be enough to put most people down for the count, if not kill them outright. It merely became an issue of what weapon(s) you were most proficient with and/or which weapon(s) was the most convenient for the job at hand. A huge battle axe was not always better than a dagger. This is exactly why I like the Conan d20. Eventually, your HP maxes out and you don't gain any more. As well, the average weapon does 3d6 or 2d10 damage. Armor doesn't make you harder to hit (much), it reduces the damage you take when you get hit....it's a brutal combat system....and it has a very brutal magic system to match.
deusxmachina 09-02-04, 05:17 AM	Maybe they should get +d6 to sneak attacks or something - as you have better leverage for striking at weak spots. The being more accurate to hit weak spots in armor is interesting, but "leverage" isn't the word to use. Bigger weapons have more leverage, which is why no one chops wood with a dagger. Adding an entire extra d6 just for using a dagger seems a bit much. Maybe a +1 or something, but +d6 is a lot. A couple posts in this thread reminded me of an article in a ninja magazine years ago. The article was some how-to tips on fighting someone who had a knife. If they come at you this way, you should do this or that, etc. And then the ninja grandmaster guy wrote something like, "Knives are very dangerous, and these tactics are a last-resort type of thing. I'd write an article on what to do against someone with a sword if you're unarmed, but in almost all cases the only thing to do is run away as fast as possible." Kinda helps clarify the real-life difference between a knife and a sword.
Bartleby_GoC 09-02-04, 12:52 PM	I once found a diagram of the various places where knives have traditionally been carried. It may have been in an encyclopedia or something, because there was a key that listed which culture used what location most often. There were over 20 locations! That's without hiding them in places like sword hilts, quivers, and ponytails. That's 20 hidden weapons that can be used in melee or ranged combat. Hand over most of them and still keep a couple hidden. You wouldn't want to take one into a swordfight, but you would for a fistfight. You can throw 'em, use them as pitons, door/lock spikes, improvised lockpicks, eating utensils (there were no dinner forks in medieval times, you used your knife), craft tools. The simple dagger is a basic survival tool, cutting rope, cleaning meat and fish, digging out tubers and roots, carving trail symbols. Tie one to the end of a stick and you have a spear. Tie one perpendicular to the end of a stick and you have a makeshift pick (hard dirt, not stone). You can hollow out water containers, use it to aid healing checks (like diffing out arrows or howler quills), and cut up bandages. Bob the barbarian may not wade into battle with a dagger, but every character will need one eventually. Rogues with less that four are under-dressed. Regarding the ease of use to find holes in armor: I see that as a function of weapon finess. With a high enough dex to make it worth taking the feat, you will also significantly improve your chances of confirming the critical, since all you have to do with the second roll is hit. There's your extra damage. The dagger is certainly underappreciated. As a weapon, no it doesn't really measure up to others. As a tool, it's one of the most useful things in all of D&D, and I don't think anyone gets the -4 improvised weapon penalty when using it. Bartleby
Warspite 09-02-04, 01:27 PM	The reason why a dagger is not a more effective weapon and will never dominate combat is a little thing called reach. The whole point of combat is to do unto others before they can do it unto you. This is also the reason why the rapier came to dominate sword fighting once armor became moot. Sure you can cut my head off with your clamor but I can lunge with my rapier and recover before you can take my head off so I win. (see the end battle in Rob Roy for a demonstration.) Daggers grant you barely more reach than a hand in a straight fight. If you want to identify a historically dominant weapon that gets the short shrift in most fantasy it is the spear. Cheap, easy to use, lots of reach, can be thrown, can be used as an improvised quarter staff inside of its reach range. In a fantasy setting with a longer head it can even provide all three basic types of damage, piercing with the tip, slashing with the edge of the head, and bludgeoning with the haft. Yet spear duals were never popular, go figure. The dagger has it's place and is quite effective in its role in the rules. No modification is required. Warspite
LadyoftheHighForest 09-02-04, 01:35 PM	I think the daggar is very useful just as it is. And in response to an earlier post...: Sneak Attack dammage works ANY time your opponant is denied their dexterity bonus against you. So if you plan with your party, you can do all sorts of cute little tricks with them. Thank You
Walnut 09-02-04, 04:18 PM	All my characters have daggers as a matter of principal. It's a utility. Also, I (and my group) are not believers in the 'golf bag' of weapons--I have my chosen weapon or two, then use light weapons to plug the gaps. If I need them or think I might I carry a silvered dagger, and a cold iron one, or whatever else I've come across that helps in those less common damage-reduction situations. They're compact, easy to keep at hand, and just sensible.
Sensei Gith 09-02-04, 04:33 PM	Weapon speed and weapon reach are assumed by the game designers to cancel each other out, so neither is supposed to be a real factor. I simply don't understand why someone would think of daggers as underpowered. They're no more or less so than any other light weapon.
Zed 09-02-04, 04:52 PM	The daggers purpose can be as simple to cut the rope the heroes are using to climb with. The real meaning of the dagger is to be a secondary weapon/tool. Try to cut rope with that greatclub. :D
FriendoftheDork 09-02-04, 09:59 PM	ehm, the dagger is not simple... and it's NOT an eating utensil! Daggers are double-edged thrust/stabbing weapon made to kill people. Commoners don't all wear daggers, they wear knives. Knives are more general purpose tools as well as weapons. Keep that in mind and respect the dagger! Today in my game a vampire spawn dominated the lvl2/1 fighter rogue who was wearing nothing but a silvered dagger and a nice dress to attack the party. They had a hard time subduing her, and later when she got hold on a spear she even killed one of them (a Web spell and a tanglefoot bag stopped her in the end). The one killed was a lathander cleric that didn't want to "manhandle her". Just on a side note.