Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WalkenDude 03-27-07, 02:54 PM	If a Daggerspell Mage has a spell storing dagger (with Shocking Grasp cast on it) uses dagger cast to charge the dagger with another shocking grasp and then attacks his opponent (melee attack not touch) rolling a natural 20 and confirming it do either of the shocking grasps crit?
mvincent 03-27-07, 03:15 PM	If a Daggerspell Mage has a spell storing dagger (with Shocking Grasp cast on it) uses dagger cast to charge the dagger with another shocking grasp and then attacks his opponent (melee attack not touch) rolling a natural 20 and confirming it do either of the shocking grasps crit?That is subject to interpretation: 1) Some DM's allow a natural 20 to threaten a crit for both the weapon and the spell (assuming it is a spell that could normally crit). 2) Some DM's rule that a stored spell cannot crit at all (because no attack roll is made specifically for the spell). 3) In the first case, the threat range for spell should not be increased by the weapon (or weapon related feats). 4) In either case, the ability to use spell-storing with a ranged weapon (like a thrown dagger) is subject to some debate, so it's best to ask your DM.
tarkin 03-27-07, 04:14 PM	Please note that the WoTC core rules are: Neither Shocking Grasp would crit. They are secondary affects, like flaming, not primary effects. Only the primary effect is supposed to crit. That would be a touch attack with a dagger cast spell, not a melee attack. Mvincent did tell the truth when he said some DM's let them crit. This is called House Ruling.
mvincent 03-27-07, 04:26 PM	Please note that the WoTC core rules are: Neither Shocking Grasp would crit. They are secondary affects, like flaming, not primary effects. Only the primary effect is supposed to crit.Can you provide a rules quote and/or support material for this?
tarkin 03-27-07, 04:42 PM	From: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits Critical Hits When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit. A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2. Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit. Increased Threat Range Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn’t result in a hit is not a threat. Increased Critical Multiplier Some weapons deal better than double damage on a critical hit. Spells and Critical Hits A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. Either A) The stored spell is 'extra damage', or B) The spell itself did not require an attack roll. The dagger did, but the spell is extra damage if it used the dagger's attack roll.
MerlintheTuna 03-27-07, 05:14 PM	Complete Arcane further clarifies this ruling on page 73, when discussing weaponlike spells and Improved Unarmed Strike.You can add the damage of your unarmed strike to the damage of a touch spell by delivering the spell as a regular melee attack instead of a melee touch attack. The defender gets the full benefit of armor and shield, but if the attack hits, the unarmed strike deals normal damage over and above any damage the spell does as it is discharged. If the unarmed strike misses, then the spell is not discharged. If the unarmed strike scores a critical hit, damage from the spell is not multiplied.
WalkenDude 03-27-07, 11:44 PM	Thank you.
WalkenDude 03-28-07, 12:50 PM	Another question: If I have a +1 magic dagger and WF: Dagger would that give me +2 when a make a touch attack with the dagger?
mvincent 03-28-07, 01:27 PM	Another question: If I have a +1 magic dagger and WF: Dagger would that give me +2 when a make a touch attack with the dagger?Possibly. However, it's debatable that one could freely make a touch attack with a dagger (I could refer you to long threads on this if desired). Also, the spell storing description says: "Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires." A touch attack should not qualify for that.
WalkenDude 03-28-07, 01:32 PM	I was refering to the DSM's Daggercast abilitity, not spell storing daggers.
MerlintheTuna 03-28-07, 02:49 PM	Another question: If I have a +1 magic dagger and WF: Dagger would that give me +2 when a make a touch attack with the dagger?Off the cuff, I'd say yes. Touch attacks can generally be considered to be the same as regular attacks, just against a (usually) lower AC. The same bonuses should apply.