Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Anauroch 08-16-06, 04:43 AM	Okay - imagine the following situation: A warlock (character A) against a moderate to weak grapple build (character B). Large sized B moves up to small A and readies an action to go for a grapple if the warlock invokes. Questions: - Eldritch Blast counts as an invocation, right? - If the warlock starts invoking on the defensive, B still gets an attack - if it hits and he wins the opposed grapple check, he deals damage and A is considered grappled => if damage dealt is 10, what would be the concentration check A would have to pass (damage dealt AND he is grappled)? => could he still use invocations since they all require somatic components? I guess not, but can one apply Still 'Spell' or similar metamagic feats to invocations? Flee the Scene would otherwise work neatly... => I'm asking mostly because of the FLEE THE SCENE invocation - how to get around this? IF B had the option of getting three attacks and going for a pin, should he try it? Or should he go for the ready? IF B can only make one attack - go for the ready or try to grapple him in any case? Help? :P EDIT: Just read that the Eldritch Blast is not an invocation... what if B is low on hit points but manages to grapple A? Or pin him? One Eldritch Blast could kill him - what are the rules for this?
Merestil Haye 08-16-06, 05:24 AM	Going to have to begin at the end here.EDIT: Just read that the Eldritch Blast is not an invocation... what if B is low on hit points but manages to grapple A? Or pin him? One Eldritch Blast could kill him - what are the rules for this?That statement on page 8 is an error, and corrected in the errata. You should get hold of the errata file if you plan to run a Warlock. Okay - imagine the following situation: A warlock (character A) against a moderate to weak grapple build (character B). Large sized B moves up to small A and readies an action to go for a grapple if the warlock invokes. Questions: - Eldritch Blast counts as an invocation, right?Yes it does. - If the warlock starts invoking on the defensive, B still gets an attack - if it hits and he wins the opposed grapple check, he deals damage and A is considered grappledCorrect. => if damage dealt is 10, what would be the concentration check A would have to pass (damage dealt AND he is grappled)? => could he still use invocations since they all require somatic components? I guess not, but can one apply Still 'Spell' or similar metamagic feats to invocations? Flee the Scene would otherwise work neatly...He can't cast an invocation with somatic components while grappled, any more than you can cast a spell with somatic components. => I'm asking mostly because of the FLEE THE SCENE invocation - how to get around this? I'm not really sure whether you are asking from the perspective of the warlock or his enemy. I'd say that as written the Warlock cannot cast any invocation while grappled. However, I think that invocations that mimic spells with no somatic components should have no somatic components and thus be castable oin a grapple, and would houserule that. IF B had the option of getting three attacks and going for a pin, should he try it? Or should he go for the ready? IF B can only make one attack - go for the ready or try to grapple him in any case? Help? :PIn general, I'd take the readied action over a single attack but the full attack action over a ready. Pinning the warlock and preventing him from speaking should prevent Flee the Scene (unless the DM concludes that invocations don't have verbal components).
Anauroch 08-16-06, 05:53 AM	Thanks a lot for the extensive and precise answer. So a warlock has no chance of using Flee the Scene in a pin when I choose to cover his mouth? There's no Silent Spell equivalent for invocations? Although I'm 95% sure of the answer judging from your post, I'd be thankful for an affirmation.
Merestil Haye 08-16-06, 09:04 AM	There is no Silent Spell-Like Ability or Still Spell-Like Ability feats because, other than invocations, no SLA ever has either component. As a DM I'd not feel that these feats are overpowered if a player of a warlock PC ever approached me with a proposal to develop them (rather the opposite, to be honest). The Sudden Still and Sudden Silent feats can be applied to invocations, so by use of these feats the Warlock could Flee the Scene even if pinned and prevented from speaking (only once per day though). As I said above, I feel that ruling that Flee the Scene (specifically) has no somatic component would make sense, since it works as Dimension Door (except that the range is only Short), and it is designed as a get-out-of-jail-free power. I'd apply the same ruling to any invocation based on a spell that has no somatic component. As I also said above, I'm not 100% certain that any invocation has a Verbal coomponent, although I've always played as if they have. If they do not, the whole discussion on preventing the warlock from speaking in a pin is rendered irrelevant. I'd suggest verifying with your DM (or if you are the DM, deciding for yourself) before this comes up in play.
Girallon Hunter 08-16-06, 12:25 PM	Quote from MM3.5 p. 315: Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components). [...] And invocations are spell-like abilities (CArcane p. 7) That's why there's no Still Spell-like Ability feat and such, there's no use for them. That's the way I played my last warlock. No problem at all to get out from a grapple. Was I wrong?
Merestil Haye 08-16-06, 02:34 PM	Quote from MM3.5 p. 315: Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components). [...] And invocations are spell-like abilities (CArcane p. 7) That's why there's no Still Spell-like Ability feat and such, there's no use for them. That's the way I played my last warlock. No problem at all to get out from a grapple. Was I wrong?If you concluded that "invocations, being SLAs, have no components," yes you wre wrong. On page 7, the second paragraph of the Weapon and Armour Proficiency section begins "Because the somatic components required for warlock invocations are rellatively simple..." What I cannot find right now is the specific text that states invocations have verbal components, although I have always played that they do.
Jeffersonian000 08-16-06, 11:14 PM	There is only one invocation that has a verbal component: Baleful Utterance. There is only one invocation with a material component: The Dead Walk. However, while the 25gp onyx used in The Dead Walk is optional, while your warlock does have to speak a Dark syllable to invoke Balefull Utterance. All invocations require a somatic component, including these two and Eldritch Blast. As such, Sudden Still (Flee the Scene) lets a warlock escape a grapple without needing to make a grapple check, once each day. The somatic component the Grappler would notice is the warlock's smile, as the Grappler realizes that the person he/she has pinned is actually a minor image. :D SJ