Damage potential of two/multi weapon fighting. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Damage potential of two/multi weapon fighting. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Chase
11-22-07, 01:25 PM Hello,
In an upcoming game, I am going to play a Thri-Kreen Ranger/Dervish/Tempist. I realize that I am going to have a large number of attacks, but I am wondering how this will play out damage wise. If each weapon only does a small amount of damage, will things with damage reduction become a problem? If I am wielding a Scimitar as a light weapon (as granted by dervish) and it counts as a light weapon, this would only give half my str modifier on damage. For anyone who has played characters with two weapon/multi weapon before, what would you suggest to up damage. Note that I am very tight on feats, so Weapon Spec is not really an option (fighter feat anyway). I know magic weapons are a must, and I was looking at vampiric for the lovely healing aspect is awesome. Feel free to leave any tips!
Thanks,
Chase
risner
11-22-07, 01:46 PM DR will be a problem.

You need to take Combat Expertise and Sense Weakness (if allowed) for a reduction in 5 DR. Then you need 24 STR or more. At that point you will likely deal at least 1 damage to most creatures (DR 10 or less.)

The biggest problem is that actually hitting will be a problem.
dawnbringer
11-22-07, 01:50 PM Why oh why are you using a scimitar. Use 2 Gythkas, its races exotic weapons that they automatically gain proficiency in. Double weapon, 2d6 each side. And there you have it. At level 6, u have 8 attacks each at 2d6 damage.
blade265
11-22-07, 01:51 PM If you can use 3rd party material there's a weapon enhancement named Forceful. Forceful: The forceful enchantment can be applied to any weapon, and causes the weapon’s standard damage die to be increased by one type. Bastion Press Arms & Armor 3.5, p46. If not there is always flaming, shock, frost etc.
Chase
11-22-07, 01:59 PM Hmm... All good ideas. As of now I have a 18 in dex and a 16 in strength at first level. I am currently using a Gythka, and I was debating on what my other two weapons should be. I could use two Gythkas, but when using two in this manner the offhand weapons are treated as one handed, not light, so the penalty is greater. Also, they only do a D10 damage, not 2d6. If I got that forceful weapon enchanment, the Damage would increase to 2d8 per each, which could be nice. I could also possibly get them made of metalline, which would be able to help bypass material damage reduction. If they were made from mitheral, they would count as a size category smaller I believe... hmmm... so many options. One thing I was thinking about doing is getting them specially designed so they could be seperated in the center, that way if it is ever necessarry I could split them into four seperate weapons...hmmm... This might just be for coolness factor, and so I can take advantage of Twoweapon/multiweapon rake. Keep the ideas coming, I'm open to using two gythkas if I can keep the attack penalties down. I was debating on taking a fault so i could get an extra feat and then take weapon fienesse...hmm
Thanks!
Chase
Tempest Stormwind
11-22-07, 02:08 PM Second Commandment of Optimization: Wieldest thou thine two-handed weapon with alacrity, but two weapons shalt thou not wield, excepting that thou hast a source of bonus damage such as Sneak Attack.

Two weapons require light weaponry in the offhands (minus Oversized TWF), which don't benefit from Power Attack. Furthermore, your Strength modifier is spread out dramatically; a big weapon benefits more from more arms than lots of little ones.

What two weapons do remarkably well, though, is add extra attacks. So if you have bonus damage that triggers on every attack -- Sneak Attack being the quintessential example -- you get spectacular results.

For instance, consider the Thug fighter variant 20 (which I'm only using for example because it gets rogue sneak attack and full base attack; you can get pretty damn close to this using Daring Outlaw) with Greater TWF. He gets 7 attacks, 4 doing [weapon+Str] and 3 doing [smallweapon+1/2Str], 4 of which can benefit from power attack. This puts him at a disadvantage over Conan, who does [bigweapon+1.5Str] 4 times and gets DOUBLE benefit from Power Attack.

...However, this theoretical fighter is also dealing +10d6 damage per hit, thanks to Sneak Attack. Note that the strongest single-target damage spell in the PHB does 24d6 damage (plus area), while this fighter can potentially do 70d6.

This is why you look to bonus damage per attack, especially if you're a thri-kreen (and thus four levels behind everyone else -- 2 racial HD and +2 LA).
dawnbringer
11-22-07, 03:48 PM The Gythka deals 2d6 damage in the book, not 1d10. And one side of the weapon is treated as offhand for two-weapon fighting purposes.
RavenDrake
11-22-07, 04:21 PM The Gythka deals 2d6 damage in the book, not 1d10. And one side of the weapon is treated as offhand for two-weapon fighting purposes.

The most recent publication of the Gythka(in the Expanded Psionics Handbook) has adjusted it to 1d10/1d10, x2, so that's the version that takes precident.

Secondly, when Multi-weapon fighting with two double weapons, you still wind up with at least one non-light weapon in an offhand, meaning you take the non-light multiple weapon fighting penalties.

Without a reliable source of bonus damage(favoured enemy bonuses not withstanding) you might consider instead taking a critical oriented route. With Keen Kukri you'll be threatening criticals on rolls of 15+. With enhancements that trigger on critical hits(like the energy bursts, thundering, enervating, or weakening) you can deliver some potent abilities to foes. Adding Collision (a +2 bonus) adds 5 points of damage per hit which can really help with overcomming damage reduction(and gets multiplied by successful critical hits). Scimitar will do for this as well, but will take oversized multi-weapon fighting or suffer additional penalties.
Chase
11-22-07, 05:38 PM Hmmm... Yes...

Scimitar will do for this as well, but will take oversized multi-weapon fighting or suffer additional penalties.

The dervish will allow me to use a scimitar as a light weapon, which will eliminate the penalty to attack. What are the stats on the scimitar? I don't have any of my books here. Also the dervish will give me a +5 to attack and damage at later levels...but this is only while in the dervish dance. I am also leveling in the tempist class, which will help reduce the penalties for multiweapon fighting by one or two, and will also allow me to transfer my weapon focus gythka to any weapon I'm weilding! :)

I was thinking of getting the vampiric ability for my weapons, that way they all deal an extra d6 and heal me that much. 14 d6 per round could nice if I can manage it.
Chase
11-22-07, 08:17 PM Quick Question: Which book is sense weakness in?
RavenDrake
11-22-07, 08:30 PM Scimitar is in the PHB, it's a one-handed slashing martial weapon, 1d6 damage 18-20, x2 critical.

Vampiric is a good choice as well, though adding it to all your weapons may be less effective considering it's market price modifier and the fact it only works on living creatures(which leave you high and dry on undead and constructs, and possibly outsiders and elementals depending on how your DM rules).

Sense Weakness is in the Draconomicon. It only applies to attacks made with weapons with which you have Weapon focus, so the tempest benefit of expanding your weapon focus will synergize nicely with that if you're concearned about dealing with damage reduction.
Chase
11-22-07, 09:53 PM Good...Good....Thanks! :D
kalstrand
11-25-07, 06:18 PM If I am wielding a Scimitar as a light weapon (as granted by dervish) and it counts as a light weapon, this would only give half my str modifier on damage.

Being a light weapon has no effect on Str bonus. In your primary hand a light weapon still does full Str bonus in your offhand it does 1/2 Str bonus just like a 1 handed weapon. It will however prevent you from using Power Attack with it.

Instead of Vampiric add Wounding to your weapon. Even if you do very little damage the Con damage adds up very quickly when you are making the huge number of attacks you will get. The only drawback is Wounding doesn't work on creatures immune to crits.

Tempest isn't a terribly usefull PRC so I would drop levels in it and add Swashbuckler which will let you add Int to damage with your scimitar against oppnents who can't be critted. Combine Str, Int, and the bonus from Dervish Dance can give you a fairly decent amount of addition damage per attack needed to make two/multiweapon fighting useful, especially if you add Wounding and are dealing a possible 4-12 points of Con damage also. You will still be in trouble against creatures immune to crits though.
RavenDrake
11-25-07, 07:27 PM Additionally, if you're interested in going the Wounding route, check the main 3.5 Update book (page 30) for the Greater Wounding property. +4 bonus for 2 points of con damage per round.... this is a great property for enhanceing the effectiveness of multiple weapon fighting, though it is quite costly...
Risingdragon145
11-25-07, 08:49 PM Also you mentioned that you wanted to add a Vampiric property to the weapon. Last I checked (and it has been some time....) Vampiric only gives you temporary healing. You could get a life drinker augment crystal from the MIC (page 65). Get a greater crystal (need each weapon to be +3) and you can be gaining 5 hp per hit..... the only down side really is that the crystals each max out at 50hp drained per day..... but it is real healing. and if ya want you can also add the vampiric power to the weapons then get alot of life per hit :schemes:
blade265
11-25-07, 10:13 PM If they were made from mitheral, they would count as a size category smaller I believe... hmmm... so many options.
Chase
DMG p284
An item made from mithral weighs half as much as the same item made from other metals. In the case of weapons, this lighter weight does not change a weapons size category or the ease with which it can be wielded.
lunarflare1001
11-25-07, 10:32 PM The impact enhancement from the MiC gives a straight +5 damage, with no damage type..
Tempest Stormwind
11-25-07, 10:43 PM You're thinking of Collision. (Impact is "keen" for blunt weapons.)

Interestingly, why did people think it originated in the MIC? There's so much in that book that showed up in the XPH for the first time, and it's only now, after the MIC, that I hear a lot of people claim it's freaking awesome.

How about this to up the ante: The XPH is open game content, and is thus in the SRD, meaning Collision can be found for free.
risner
11-25-07, 10:45 PM made from mitheral, they would count as a size category smaller I believe.

Mithril weapons are only good for 3 STR Wizards who want to have a dagger to use.
RavenDrake
11-25-07, 11:02 PM The impact enhancement from the MiC gives a straight +5 damage, with no damage type..

Not quite. In the case of collision, it increase the weapon damage roll. And just like any other effect that increases weapon damage rolls (such as Weapon Specialization, the rangers Favoured Enemy, or the enhancement bonus on a magical weapon) then the extra damage's type or types are determined by the weapon itself.

Also, Risingdragon145, the vampiric enhancement deals an extra die of damage to living creatures and heals an equal ammount, no temporary hitpoints or other intermediary effect, and no limit per day healed.
Chase
11-26-07, 01:45 AM I really appreciate all the input! The vampiric is actual healing, per the new Book of Magic Items. I am thinking of making the gythka, my main weapon, vampiric because I get the most attacks with it. I will then make my two scimitars collision, to help offset the lack of str bonus. I am also very interested in the wounding ablility, because who doesn't love con damage. It might be a bit expensive though! I will have to look into the swashbuckler class....

I was wondering how useful tempest would be.... If i remember correctly, i can't check because I am afb at the moment, it 1. lessens the penalties for multiweapon fighting. 2 it lets me apply my weapon focus bonus to all of my weapons. 3. it gives me the effects of two weapon pounce (if I remember correctly) 4. it also gives me something similar to two weapon defense. If the two weapon pounce thing is accurate, that would be nice because it would be effectively multiweapon pounce! :P If I am wrong on what this class gives me, let me know. The int damage could be sweet. There are some other enhancements which work when the weapons crit, like doomburst, which was kinda cool. Does wounding only work on a crit?
Thanks for all your input!
Chase
Chase
11-26-07, 01:55 AM Oh, BTW, I was wondering...
The ambidexterity feat made it so you had no offhand, correct? So both hands could be treated as the "main hand".... but they eliminated this feat, correct? So... if the ambidexerity feat made it so both hands were like a main hand, would you still only deal half str. with the offhand? I might be totally wrong on that... Just wondering, cause that kinda sucks if they eliminated that feat....that could be a nice way to make the damage even across the board of attacks.... but oh well..
Eikre
11-26-07, 02:15 AM In 3.0, at least, getting an extra half-your-STR-mod to damage depended on the number of hands on your weapon, the attack being designated as an extra one gained from multiweapon fighting.

Back then, off-hands only had a -4 penalty for use in attack rolls or skill checks; Ambidexterity, of course, eliminated that by making all your hands into main hands. But you never had a fixed 'weak' or 'strong' hand... Just a 'forward' hand and all the secondary ones.

What does that mean? Well, it just means that you couldn't use ambidexterity in the way you're thinking. It also means that if you wanted to, you could use a weapon in your off-hand, and accept the -4 penalty, but not face a decrease in damage... Not that that would ever actually come up, but that's the distinction.

To the best of my knowledge, this STR-to-damage function works the same way in 3.5, but I can't seem to recall any clear definitions of off-hands in this edition. Possibly, we no longer have fixed off-hands, which means you can wield a weapon in either hand equally well. Possibly, the off-hand penalties are a function of the two-weapon aspects, which might mean you can nullify penalties by using a light weapon in any case.

...Was that all entirely too confusing?
Chase
11-26-07, 02:20 AM Clear...as...mud :P
Eikre
11-26-07, 03:02 AM Basically, the half-strength penalty wasn't attached to a hand. It was attached to circumstance. Both your arms were as strong as each other. But you only got half the strength from one of them if you tried to go all-out with weapons.
risner
11-26-07, 12:08 PM Oh, BTW, I was wondering...
The ambidexterity feat made it so you had no offhand, correct? So both hands could be treated as the "main hand".... but they eliminated this feat, correct? So... if the ambidexerity feat made it so both hands were like a main hand, would you still only deal half str. with the offhand? I might be totally wrong on that... Just wondering, cause that kinda sucks if they eliminated that feat....that could be a nice way to make the damage even across the board of attacks.... but oh well..

There is no feat called Ambidexterity, it is subsumed into Two Weapon Fighting now.

With TWF, both hands are not treated as main hand.
You deal half str with off hands.

The feat was not eliminated, in 3.0 you needed both TWF and Ambidexterity to get -2/-2 attack penalties. IN 3.5 you need only TWF to get -2/2. In other words 3.5 TWF is equal to exactly the same thing as having Ambidexterity and TWF in 3.0 game.
kalstrand
11-26-07, 05:17 PM The Tempest will reduce your TWF penalties to 0 over 4 levels, give you a +3 to AC over 5, let you apply your wepon specific feats to any weapon, and let you make an attack with both your primary and offhand weapon during a Spring Attack.

The Spring Attack thing is pretty much useless for a Dervish since while using the Dervish Dance you can make a full move and a full attack simultaneously so once you get to the point you can DD every encounter there is no need to bother with Spring Attack anymore especially since the Dervish can take 10 on tumble checks anytime so he can tumble at full speed and still prevent AoOs.
Chimaera2000
11-26-07, 05:26 PM Hello,
In an upcoming game, I am going to play a Thri-Kreen Ranger/Dervish/Tempist. I realize that I am going to have a large number of attacks, but I am wondering how this will play out damage wise....

You can find a lot of interesting ideas for increasing your damage in the Dervish Handbook. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=629013)
Chase
11-26-07, 08:49 PM Hello,
I have really been enjoying everyones suggestions, and I love the Dervish Handbook thread. I was wondering which book the highland stalker can be found on? I am interested in checking that out! :D
Thanks,
Chase

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chase 11-22-07, 01:25 PM	Hello, In an upcoming game, I am going to play a Thri-Kreen Ranger/Dervish/Tempist. I realize that I am going to have a large number of attacks, but I am wondering how this will play out damage wise. If each weapon only does a small amount of damage, will things with damage reduction become a problem? If I am wielding a Scimitar as a light weapon (as granted by dervish) and it counts as a light weapon, this would only give half my str modifier on damage. For anyone who has played characters with two weapon/multi weapon before, what would you suggest to up damage. Note that I am very tight on feats, so Weapon Spec is not really an option (fighter feat anyway). I know magic weapons are a must, and I was looking at vampiric for the lovely healing aspect is awesome. Feel free to leave any tips! Thanks, Chase
risner 11-22-07, 01:46 PM	DR will be a problem. You need to take Combat Expertise and Sense Weakness (if allowed) for a reduction in 5 DR. Then you need 24 STR or more. At that point you will likely deal at least 1 damage to most creatures (DR 10 or less.) The biggest problem is that actually hitting will be a problem.
dawnbringer 11-22-07, 01:50 PM	Why oh why are you using a scimitar. Use 2 Gythkas, its races exotic weapons that they automatically gain proficiency in. Double weapon, 2d6 each side. And there you have it. At level 6, u have 8 attacks each at 2d6 damage.
blade265 11-22-07, 01:51 PM	If you can use 3rd party material there's a weapon enhancement named Forceful. Forceful: The forceful enchantment can be applied to any weapon, and causes the weapon’s standard damage die to be increased by one type. Bastion Press Arms & Armor 3.5, p46. If not there is always flaming, shock, frost etc.
Chase 11-22-07, 01:59 PM	Hmm... All good ideas. As of now I have a 18 in dex and a 16 in strength at first level. I am currently using a Gythka, and I was debating on what my other two weapons should be. I could use two Gythkas, but when using two in this manner the offhand weapons are treated as one handed, not light, so the penalty is greater. Also, they only do a D10 damage, not 2d6. If I got that forceful weapon enchanment, the Damage would increase to 2d8 per each, which could be nice. I could also possibly get them made of metalline, which would be able to help bypass material damage reduction. If they were made from mitheral, they would count as a size category smaller I believe... hmmm... so many options. One thing I was thinking about doing is getting them specially designed so they could be seperated in the center, that way if it is ever necessarry I could split them into four seperate weapons...hmmm... This might just be for coolness factor, and so I can take advantage of Twoweapon/multiweapon rake. Keep the ideas coming, I'm open to using two gythkas if I can keep the attack penalties down. I was debating on taking a fault so i could get an extra feat and then take weapon fienesse...hmm Thanks! Chase
Tempest Stormwind 11-22-07, 02:08 PM	Second Commandment of Optimization: Wieldest thou thine two-handed weapon with alacrity, but two weapons shalt thou not wield, excepting that thou hast a source of bonus damage such as Sneak Attack. Two weapons require light weaponry in the offhands (minus Oversized TWF), which don't benefit from Power Attack. Furthermore, your Strength modifier is spread out dramatically; a big weapon benefits more from more arms than lots of little ones. What two weapons do remarkably well, though, is add extra attacks. So if you have bonus damage that triggers on every attack -- Sneak Attack being the quintessential example -- you get spectacular results. For instance, consider the Thug fighter variant 20 (which I'm only using for example because it gets rogue sneak attack and full base attack; you can get pretty damn close to this using Daring Outlaw) with Greater TWF. He gets 7 attacks, 4 doing [weapon+Str] and 3 doing [smallweapon+1/2Str], 4 of which can benefit from power attack. This puts him at a disadvantage over Conan, who does [bigweapon+1.5Str] 4 times and gets DOUBLE benefit from Power Attack. ...However, this theoretical fighter is also dealing +10d6 damage per hit, thanks to Sneak Attack. Note that the strongest single-target damage spell in the PHB does 24d6 damage (plus area), while this fighter can potentially do 70d6. This is why you look to bonus damage per attack, especially if you're a thri-kreen (and thus four levels behind everyone else -- 2 racial HD and +2 LA).
dawnbringer 11-22-07, 03:48 PM	The Gythka deals 2d6 damage in the book, not 1d10. And one side of the weapon is treated as offhand for two-weapon fighting purposes.
RavenDrake 11-22-07, 04:21 PM	The Gythka deals 2d6 damage in the book, not 1d10. And one side of the weapon is treated as offhand for two-weapon fighting purposes. The most recent publication of the Gythka(in the Expanded Psionics Handbook) has adjusted it to 1d10/1d10, x2, so that's the version that takes precident. Secondly, when Multi-weapon fighting with two double weapons, you still wind up with at least one non-light weapon in an offhand, meaning you take the non-light multiple weapon fighting penalties. Without a reliable source of bonus damage(favoured enemy bonuses not withstanding) you might consider instead taking a critical oriented route. With Keen Kukri you'll be threatening criticals on rolls of 15+. With enhancements that trigger on critical hits(like the energy bursts, thundering, enervating, or weakening) you can deliver some potent abilities to foes. Adding Collision (a +2 bonus) adds 5 points of damage per hit which can really help with overcomming damage reduction(and gets multiplied by successful critical hits). Scimitar will do for this as well, but will take oversized multi-weapon fighting or suffer additional penalties.
Chase 11-22-07, 05:38 PM	Hmmm... Yes... Scimitar will do for this as well, but will take oversized multi-weapon fighting or suffer additional penalties. The dervish will allow me to use a scimitar as a light weapon, which will eliminate the penalty to attack. What are the stats on the scimitar? I don't have any of my books here. Also the dervish will give me a +5 to attack and damage at later levels...but this is only while in the dervish dance. I am also leveling in the tempist class, which will help reduce the penalties for multiweapon fighting by one or two, and will also allow me to transfer my weapon focus gythka to any weapon I'm weilding! :) I was thinking of getting the vampiric ability for my weapons, that way they all deal an extra d6 and heal me that much. 14 d6 per round could nice if I can manage it.
Chase 11-22-07, 08:17 PM	Quick Question: Which book is sense weakness in?
RavenDrake 11-22-07, 08:30 PM	Scimitar is in the PHB, it's a one-handed slashing martial weapon, 1d6 damage 18-20, x2 critical. Vampiric is a good choice as well, though adding it to all your weapons may be less effective considering it's market price modifier and the fact it only works on living creatures(which leave you high and dry on undead and constructs, and possibly outsiders and elementals depending on how your DM rules). Sense Weakness is in the Draconomicon. It only applies to attacks made with weapons with which you have Weapon focus, so the tempest benefit of expanding your weapon focus will synergize nicely with that if you're concearned about dealing with damage reduction.
Chase 11-22-07, 09:53 PM	Good...Good....Thanks! :D
kalstrand 11-25-07, 06:18 PM	If I am wielding a Scimitar as a light weapon (as granted by dervish) and it counts as a light weapon, this would only give half my str modifier on damage. Being a light weapon has no effect on Str bonus. In your primary hand a light weapon still does full Str bonus in your offhand it does 1/2 Str bonus just like a 1 handed weapon. It will however prevent you from using Power Attack with it. Instead of Vampiric add Wounding to your weapon. Even if you do very little damage the Con damage adds up very quickly when you are making the huge number of attacks you will get. The only drawback is Wounding doesn't work on creatures immune to crits. Tempest isn't a terribly usefull PRC so I would drop levels in it and add Swashbuckler which will let you add Int to damage with your scimitar against oppnents who can't be critted. Combine Str, Int, and the bonus from Dervish Dance can give you a fairly decent amount of addition damage per attack needed to make two/multiweapon fighting useful, especially if you add Wounding and are dealing a possible 4-12 points of Con damage also. You will still be in trouble against creatures immune to crits though.
RavenDrake 11-25-07, 07:27 PM	Additionally, if you're interested in going the Wounding route, check the main 3.5 Update book (page 30) for the Greater Wounding property. +4 bonus for 2 points of con damage per round.... this is a great property for enhanceing the effectiveness of multiple weapon fighting, though it is quite costly...
Risingdragon145 11-25-07, 08:49 PM	Also you mentioned that you wanted to add a Vampiric property to the weapon. Last I checked (and it has been some time....) Vampiric only gives you temporary healing. You could get a life drinker augment crystal from the MIC (page 65). Get a greater crystal (need each weapon to be +3) and you can be gaining 5 hp per hit..... the only down side really is that the crystals each max out at 50hp drained per day..... but it is real healing. and if ya want you can also add the vampiric power to the weapons then get alot of life per hit :schemes:
blade265 11-25-07, 10:13 PM	If they were made from mitheral, they would count as a size category smaller I believe... hmmm... so many options. Chase DMG p284 An item made from mithral weighs half as much as the same item made from other metals. In the case of weapons, this lighter weight does not change a weapons size category or the ease with which it can be wielded.
lunarflare1001 11-25-07, 10:32 PM	The impact enhancement from the MiC gives a straight +5 damage, with no damage type..
Tempest Stormwind 11-25-07, 10:43 PM	You're thinking of Collision. (Impact is "keen" for blunt weapons.) Interestingly, why did people think it originated in the MIC? There's so much in that book that showed up in the XPH for the first time, and it's only now, after the MIC, that I hear a lot of people claim it's freaking awesome. How about this to up the ante: The XPH is open game content, and is thus in the SRD, meaning Collision can be found for free.
risner 11-25-07, 10:45 PM	made from mitheral, they would count as a size category smaller I believe. Mithril weapons are only good for 3 STR Wizards who want to have a dagger to use.
RavenDrake 11-25-07, 11:02 PM	The impact enhancement from the MiC gives a straight +5 damage, with no damage type.. Not quite. In the case of collision, it increase the weapon damage roll. And just like any other effect that increases weapon damage rolls (such as Weapon Specialization, the rangers Favoured Enemy, or the enhancement bonus on a magical weapon) then the extra damage's type or types are determined by the weapon itself. Also, Risingdragon145, the vampiric enhancement deals an extra die of damage to living creatures and heals an equal ammount, no temporary hitpoints or other intermediary effect, and no limit per day healed.
Chase 11-26-07, 01:45 AM	I really appreciate all the input! The vampiric is actual healing, per the new Book of Magic Items. I am thinking of making the gythka, my main weapon, vampiric because I get the most attacks with it. I will then make my two scimitars collision, to help offset the lack of str bonus. I am also very interested in the wounding ablility, because who doesn't love con damage. It might be a bit expensive though! I will have to look into the swashbuckler class.... I was wondering how useful tempest would be.... If i remember correctly, i can't check because I am afb at the moment, it 1. lessens the penalties for multiweapon fighting. 2 it lets me apply my weapon focus bonus to all of my weapons. 3. it gives me the effects of two weapon pounce (if I remember correctly) 4. it also gives me something similar to two weapon defense. If the two weapon pounce thing is accurate, that would be nice because it would be effectively multiweapon pounce! :P If I am wrong on what this class gives me, let me know. The int damage could be sweet. There are some other enhancements which work when the weapons crit, like doomburst, which was kinda cool. Does wounding only work on a crit? Thanks for all your input! Chase
Chase 11-26-07, 01:55 AM	Oh, BTW, I was wondering... The ambidexterity feat made it so you had no offhand, correct? So both hands could be treated as the "main hand".... but they eliminated this feat, correct? So... if the ambidexerity feat made it so both hands were like a main hand, would you still only deal half str. with the offhand? I might be totally wrong on that... Just wondering, cause that kinda sucks if they eliminated that feat....that could be a nice way to make the damage even across the board of attacks.... but oh well..
Eikre 11-26-07, 02:15 AM	In 3.0, at least, getting an extra half-your-STR-mod to damage depended on the number of hands on your weapon, the attack being designated as an extra one gained from multiweapon fighting. Back then, off-hands only had a -4 penalty for use in attack rolls or skill checks; Ambidexterity, of course, eliminated that by making all your hands into main hands. But you never had a fixed 'weak' or 'strong' hand... Just a 'forward' hand and all the secondary ones. What does that mean? Well, it just means that you couldn't use ambidexterity in the way you're thinking. It also means that if you wanted to, you could use a weapon in your off-hand, and accept the -4 penalty, but not face a decrease in damage... Not that that would ever actually come up, but that's the distinction. To the best of my knowledge, this STR-to-damage function works the same way in 3.5, but I can't seem to recall any clear definitions of off-hands in this edition. Possibly, we no longer have fixed off-hands, which means you can wield a weapon in either hand equally well. Possibly, the off-hand penalties are a function of the two-weapon aspects, which might mean you can nullify penalties by using a light weapon in any case. ...Was that all entirely too confusing?
Chase 11-26-07, 02:20 AM	Clear...as...mud :P
Eikre 11-26-07, 03:02 AM	Basically, the half-strength penalty wasn't attached to a hand. It was attached to circumstance. Both your arms were as strong as each other. But you only got half the strength from one of them if you tried to go all-out with weapons.
risner 11-26-07, 12:08 PM	Oh, BTW, I was wondering... The ambidexterity feat made it so you had no offhand, correct? So both hands could be treated as the "main hand".... but they eliminated this feat, correct? So... if the ambidexerity feat made it so both hands were like a main hand, would you still only deal half str. with the offhand? I might be totally wrong on that... Just wondering, cause that kinda sucks if they eliminated that feat....that could be a nice way to make the damage even across the board of attacks.... but oh well.. There is no feat called Ambidexterity, it is subsumed into Two Weapon Fighting now. With TWF, both hands are not treated as main hand. You deal half str with off hands. The feat was not eliminated, in 3.0 you needed both TWF and Ambidexterity to get -2/-2 attack penalties. IN 3.5 you need only TWF to get -2/2. In other words 3.5 TWF is equal to exactly the same thing as having Ambidexterity and TWF in 3.0 game.
kalstrand 11-26-07, 05:17 PM	The Tempest will reduce your TWF penalties to 0 over 4 levels, give you a +3 to AC over 5, let you apply your wepon specific feats to any weapon, and let you make an attack with both your primary and offhand weapon during a Spring Attack. The Spring Attack thing is pretty much useless for a Dervish since while using the Dervish Dance you can make a full move and a full attack simultaneously so once you get to the point you can DD every encounter there is no need to bother with Spring Attack anymore especially since the Dervish can take 10 on tumble checks anytime so he can tumble at full speed and still prevent AoOs.
Chimaera2000 11-26-07, 05:26 PM	Hello, In an upcoming game, I am going to play a Thri-Kreen Ranger/Dervish/Tempist. I realize that I am going to have a large number of attacks, but I am wondering how this will play out damage wise.... You can find a lot of interesting ideas for increasing your damage in the Dervish Handbook. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=629013)
Chase 11-26-07, 08:49 PM	Hello, I have really been enjoying everyones suggestions, and I love the Dervish Handbook thread. I was wondering which book the highland stalker can be found on? I am interested in checking that out! :D Thanks, Chase