Damage Reduction, per round or per hit? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Damage Reduction, per round or per hit? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SephDragoon
08-30-06, 06:57 PM I was under the impression for a while that damage reduction was per round. Heck, it made sense to me. Then I read some disturbing information, and is it really true that damage reduction cannot be overcome by multiple attacks?

No matter how many times in a round I attack something, it will aborb all of it? So potentially, dex fighters who can't do the massive amounts of damage may as well just give up, they will never do more than 10-15-20 damage to a creature in a single hit unless they crit.

This wasn't an issue until I also read that magic weapons, no matter how powerful, can't overcome damage reduction unless they are made of the right material >_<.
Telemon_Ajax
08-30-06, 06:59 PM It's per hit, which is why twf fighters can't do well against high DRs XD

Edit: Good catch Seerow, i really gotta look at my posts better :-X
Seerow
08-30-06, 07:04 PM 1) The above poster means per hit, obviously from the context of the rest of his post.
2) In 3.5 most DRs are significantly lower than they were in 3.0 to compensate for a +5 weapon no longer penetrating everything in the book.
3) If DR is REALLY a huge problem for you, get the book Underdark, and make yourself a +1 Morphing Metalline Sure Striking Longsword, and bypass any DR type under the sun save DR/Epic and DR/-.
4) Dex based fighters generally do suck, sorry to say. To really work well you need to get extra damage from other sources. Examples are a Rogue's Sneak Attack, Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike, and CoCL's special ability that gives Dex to damage.
P_Zombie
08-30-06, 07:15 PM Seerow is right.

Dex based fighters underperformed compared to their Str based cousins.

Strength is the gift that keeps on giving for Fighters.

I think WOTC recognized this, and with ToB: Nine Swords is trying to change things up, just as PHB II made Fighters who actually used shields more effective than they were.
SephDragoon
08-30-06, 08:35 PM seriously... this could all be avoided if the number of attacks per round were based off of dex... Like ti should be. Sorry, but it sounds odd to me that a 3 dex fighter can attack just as many times as a 20 dex fighter in one round. Either way... DR is broken >_<.
Seerow
08-30-06, 08:41 PM Why exactly is DR broken?

Seriously, a monster with DR5/Cold Iron, even if you don't have a Cold Iron weapon won't be crippling you past level 3. Seriously, any well built character will do enough damage that DR will be a hindrance, but not ruin you entirely.

And I fail to see the need to base attacks per round off dex. That just goes and makes Rogues insanely powerful, heavy armor incredibly weak, and a Barbarian more useless.
SephDragoon
08-30-06, 10:39 PM I'm not worried about dr 5, like I said. dr 10 and higher, it becomes a problem. Anyways, whatever you say Seerow, I think it should be done. Simple way to make it work is have a warrior with decent dex. And it would still have to be class based of course, I don't argue with that. I'm just saying a tweaking... Maybe, to releive the AB reduction for multiple attacks?
Seerow
08-30-06, 10:46 PM But by the time you deal with DR10/whatever you're probably level 10, by which point it's not that big of a deal to you. And if it IS a big deal to you, by that point you can almost afford the weapon I described above that bypasses any DR type you could ever want. (May have to wait a few more levels, I forget, but it's somewhere around there)
SephDragoon
08-30-06, 11:09 PM actually, I came to a realization... while I myself wouldn't be able to do much to help that damage reduction short of buying the item myself, my class is capable of turning items into any enchantment they want... So, while I can't fight myself, I can possess an item and make it that type of weapon.
risner
08-30-06, 11:40 PM I'm not worried about dr 5, like I said. dr 10 and higher, it becomes a problem.

DR/15 is only Dragons (At least in MMI, MM3).

DR/10 isn't that hard for a level 10 to exceed.
Bulletproof_Condom
08-31-06, 12:21 AM So potentially, dex fighters who can't do the massive amounts of damage may as well just give up, they will never do more than 10-15-20 damage to a creature in a single hit unless they crit.
You... do realize that energy damage isn't subject to damage reduction, right?

Get yourself a flaming frost shock rapier, you'll be just fine.
DarkRhystar
08-31-06, 01:57 AM You... do realize that energy damage isn't subject to damage reduction, right?

Get yourself a flaming frost shock rapier, you'll be just fine.

Until you run into that one outsider with "Resistance to cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5." :)
Bulletproof_Condom
08-31-06, 02:07 AM Aren't you glad he only has DR/magic.
BW0222
08-31-06, 02:14 AM SephDragoon,

DR is per attack. That said, it isn't a big deal.

First, any energy attack gets through it, as do most damaging spells. A flask of oil, a torch, an acid splash, or a ray of frost gets through it. Magic missiles work also.

Second, most non-damaging spells get pass them. Web, deep slumber, mind fog, illusions, etc.

Third, sneak attack and critical hits can still get through. Fire enough arrows or hit them enough and you get a critical hit.

Forth, you can drown them, toss them off a cliff, etc.

Fifth, all most DR is on considerable higher EL combats. By those levels folks can be expected to have magic, silver, cold iron, etc. to get past them.

Sixth, all most all DR creatures are extremely high on the EL adjustment scale. i.e. they have fewer hit dice and hit points than similiar creatures of the same CR. Thus, a werewolf barbarian might only by 3d12 + 2d8 (wolf) can be running around a EL 8 or 9 encounter. Gee... DR 15 against a bunch of 8th or 9th-level opponents isn't great when you only have 40hp to start with.

Seventh, any DM worth their while is going to give you some fair warning when facing creatures with high immunities. Most times they won't spring a DR 10/adamantine creature at you without some hope you can arm yourselves appropriately.

Thanks,

Brett
Arvagor
08-31-06, 02:34 PM DR/15 is only Dragons (At least in MMI, MM3).
Balor: 15/cold iron and good
Marut: 15/chaotic
Pit Fiend: 15/good and silver
Solar: 15/epic and evil
Tarrasque: 15/epic
Titan: 15/lawful

"Shadow striking" is an enhancement available in Tome of Magic (Price: +3 bonus) that allows your weapon to automatically adjust to the whatever the DR is of the creature you're striking. IIRC, there is a similar enhancement in the Miniatures Handbook.
Seerow
08-31-06, 02:40 PM Balor: 15/cold iron and good
Marut: 15/chaotic
Pit Fiend: 15/good and silver
Solar: 15/epic and evil
Tarrasque: 15/epic
Titan: 15/lawful

Isn't it lucky most of those are CR20ish encounters? If by that level you can't do significantly more than 15 damage a hit, and have no way of getting around their DR (unexcusable except for the Tarrasque and Solar, Sure Striking is dirt cheap) then you -deserve- to sit in the corner of uselessness for the encounter.
Missing Minds
08-31-06, 02:45 PM Anyways, whatever you say Seerow, I think it should be done. Simple way to make it work is have a warrior with decent dex. And it would still have to be class based of course, I don't argue with that. I'm just saying a tweaking... Maybe, to releive the AB reduction for multiple attacks?

All you have stated is that you want stuff for free. Your attacks per round are *already* based off class. Its called Base Attack Bonus. (BAB) of which the fighter types have the highest progression.

You want to swing your weapon around faster, or have more attacks, you go two weapon style. High high enough dex, and you can take the feats to get more and more possible attacks per round, but at a price.

I personally see it fine as it is. If you want to house rule, hey, its your game. Have fun with it.
Kimokeo
08-31-06, 02:52 PM My goblins have DR 15 against any shadowstriking weapons.
Actually, their DR 15 is against everything except non-magical weapons.

I always liked the reverse DR defense - everything but non-magical.

I did this once with a group that was loaded with their magical weapons with extras galore. I had them meet some magic sucking monsters to try to take the magic of their weapons but they didn't like the monsters trying to do it. If they had let the monsters steal their magic away, they could've won the last fight.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SephDragoon 08-30-06, 06:57 PM	I was under the impression for a while that damage reduction was per round. Heck, it made sense to me. Then I read some disturbing information, and is it really true that damage reduction cannot be overcome by multiple attacks? No matter how many times in a round I attack something, it will aborb all of it? So potentially, dex fighters who can't do the massive amounts of damage may as well just give up, they will never do more than 10-15-20 damage to a creature in a single hit unless they crit. This wasn't an issue until I also read that magic weapons, no matter how powerful, can't overcome damage reduction unless they are made of the right material >_<.
Telemon_Ajax 08-30-06, 06:59 PM	It's per hit, which is why twf fighters can't do well against high DRs XD Edit: Good catch Seerow, i really gotta look at my posts better :-X
Seerow 08-30-06, 07:04 PM	1) The above poster means per hit, obviously from the context of the rest of his post. 2) In 3.5 most DRs are significantly lower than they were in 3.0 to compensate for a +5 weapon no longer penetrating everything in the book. 3) If DR is REALLY a huge problem for you, get the book Underdark, and make yourself a +1 Morphing Metalline Sure Striking Longsword, and bypass any DR type under the sun save DR/Epic and DR/-. 4) Dex based fighters generally do suck, sorry to say. To really work well you need to get extra damage from other sources. Examples are a Rogue's Sneak Attack, Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike, and CoCL's special ability that gives Dex to damage.
P_Zombie 08-30-06, 07:15 PM	Seerow is right. Dex based fighters underperformed compared to their Str based cousins. Strength is the gift that keeps on giving for Fighters. I think WOTC recognized this, and with ToB: Nine Swords is trying to change things up, just as PHB II made Fighters who actually used shields more effective than they were.
SephDragoon 08-30-06, 08:35 PM	seriously... this could all be avoided if the number of attacks per round were based off of dex... Like ti should be. Sorry, but it sounds odd to me that a 3 dex fighter can attack just as many times as a 20 dex fighter in one round. Either way... DR is broken >_<.
Seerow 08-30-06, 08:41 PM	Why exactly is DR broken? Seriously, a monster with DR5/Cold Iron, even if you don't have a Cold Iron weapon won't be crippling you past level 3. Seriously, any well built character will do enough damage that DR will be a hindrance, but not ruin you entirely. And I fail to see the need to base attacks per round off dex. That just goes and makes Rogues insanely powerful, heavy armor incredibly weak, and a Barbarian more useless.
SephDragoon 08-30-06, 10:39 PM	I'm not worried about dr 5, like I said. dr 10 and higher, it becomes a problem. Anyways, whatever you say Seerow, I think it should be done. Simple way to make it work is have a warrior with decent dex. And it would still have to be class based of course, I don't argue with that. I'm just saying a tweaking... Maybe, to releive the AB reduction for multiple attacks?
Seerow 08-30-06, 10:46 PM	But by the time you deal with DR10/whatever you're probably level 10, by which point it's not that big of a deal to you. And if it IS a big deal to you, by that point you can almost afford the weapon I described above that bypasses any DR type you could ever want. (May have to wait a few more levels, I forget, but it's somewhere around there)
SephDragoon 08-30-06, 11:09 PM	actually, I came to a realization... while I myself wouldn't be able to do much to help that damage reduction short of buying the item myself, my class is capable of turning items into any enchantment they want... So, while I can't fight myself, I can possess an item and make it that type of weapon.
risner 08-30-06, 11:40 PM	I'm not worried about dr 5, like I said. dr 10 and higher, it becomes a problem. DR/15 is only Dragons (At least in MMI, MM3). DR/10 isn't that hard for a level 10 to exceed.
Bulletproof_Condom 08-31-06, 12:21 AM	So potentially, dex fighters who can't do the massive amounts of damage may as well just give up, they will never do more than 10-15-20 damage to a creature in a single hit unless they crit. You... do realize that energy damage isn't subject to damage reduction, right? Get yourself a flaming frost shock rapier, you'll be just fine.
DarkRhystar 08-31-06, 01:57 AM	You... do realize that energy damage isn't subject to damage reduction, right? Get yourself a flaming frost shock rapier, you'll be just fine. Until you run into that one outsider with "Resistance to cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5." :)
Bulletproof_Condom 08-31-06, 02:07 AM	Aren't you glad he only has DR/magic.
BW0222 08-31-06, 02:14 AM	SephDragoon, DR is per attack. That said, it isn't a big deal. First, any energy attack gets through it, as do most damaging spells. A flask of oil, a torch, an acid splash, or a ray of frost gets through it. Magic missiles work also. Second, most non-damaging spells get pass them. Web, deep slumber, mind fog, illusions, etc. Third, sneak attack and critical hits can still get through. Fire enough arrows or hit them enough and you get a critical hit. Forth, you can drown them, toss them off a cliff, etc. Fifth, all most DR is on considerable higher EL combats. By those levels folks can be expected to have magic, silver, cold iron, etc. to get past them. Sixth, all most all DR creatures are extremely high on the EL adjustment scale. i.e. they have fewer hit dice and hit points than similiar creatures of the same CR. Thus, a werewolf barbarian might only by 3d12 + 2d8 (wolf) can be running around a EL 8 or 9 encounter. Gee... DR 15 against a bunch of 8th or 9th-level opponents isn't great when you only have 40hp to start with. Seventh, any DM worth their while is going to give you some fair warning when facing creatures with high immunities. Most times they won't spring a DR 10/adamantine creature at you without some hope you can arm yourselves appropriately. Thanks, Brett
Arvagor 08-31-06, 02:34 PM	DR/15 is only Dragons (At least in MMI, MM3). Balor: 15/cold iron and good Marut: 15/chaotic Pit Fiend: 15/good and silver Solar: 15/epic and evil Tarrasque: 15/epic Titan: 15/lawful "Shadow striking" is an enhancement available in Tome of Magic (Price: +3 bonus) that allows your weapon to automatically adjust to the whatever the DR is of the creature you're striking. IIRC, there is a similar enhancement in the Miniatures Handbook.
Seerow 08-31-06, 02:40 PM	Balor: 15/cold iron and good Marut: 15/chaotic Pit Fiend: 15/good and silver Solar: 15/epic and evil Tarrasque: 15/epic Titan: 15/lawful Isn't it lucky most of those are CR20ish encounters? If by that level you can't do significantly more than 15 damage a hit, and have no way of getting around their DR (unexcusable except for the Tarrasque and Solar, Sure Striking is dirt cheap) then you -deserve- to sit in the corner of uselessness for the encounter.
Missing Minds 08-31-06, 02:45 PM	Anyways, whatever you say Seerow, I think it should be done. Simple way to make it work is have a warrior with decent dex. And it would still have to be class based of course, I don't argue with that. I'm just saying a tweaking... Maybe, to releive the AB reduction for multiple attacks? All you have stated is that you want stuff for free. Your attacks per round are already based off class. Its called Base Attack Bonus. (BAB) of which the fighter types have the highest progression. You want to swing your weapon around faster, or have more attacks, you go two weapon style. High high enough dex, and you can take the feats to get more and more possible attacks per round, but at a price. I personally see it fine as it is. If you want to house rule, hey, its your game. Have fun with it.
Kimokeo 08-31-06, 02:52 PM	My goblins have DR 15 against any shadowstriking weapons. Actually, their DR 15 is against everything except non-magical weapons. I always liked the reverse DR defense - everything but non-magical. I did this once with a group that was loaded with their magical weapons with extras galore. I had them meet some magic sucking monsters to try to take the magic of their weapons but they didn't like the monsters trying to do it. If they had let the monsters steal their magic away, they could've won the last fight.