Damage reduction questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Damage reduction questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Stealth_Ninja
09-27-06, 01:05 PM OOOK, so this is kind of a weird subject, but lets say a creature have a damage reduction to silver, cold Iron, bludgeoning or something like that, how can you bypass it with a spell, there are no spells that do cold Iron damage. Does magic overide damage reduction? Or else how do you bypass DR with spells?
mvincent
09-27-06, 01:12 PM Does magic overide damage reduction?Yes. Creatures with DR (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction) take "normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities."
Stealth_Ninja
09-27-06, 01:16 PM What book is that from?
Xybot
09-27-06, 02:03 PM Its in my Players Handbook on page 307, under Damage Reduction (DR).

:rolleyes:
runestar
09-27-06, 11:19 PM Note that even if a spell does piercing damage, it would still not be reduced by dr since it is a spell.:)
Jhaelen
09-28-06, 04:50 PM Note that even if a spell does piercing damage, it would still not be reduced by dr since it is a spell.:)Funnily, the same is not true for psionic powers - if you believe the sidebar in 'complete psionic', that is...:rolleyes:
Neutronium_Dragon
09-28-06, 06:14 PM An indirect effect from a spell might be, though, or if the spell's effect is one of the "launch a weapon/etc at the target" types, such as Launch Bolt.
savant_warlord13
09-29-06, 03:40 PM Note: Conjuration spells and Metacreation powers that do not deal energy damage are subject to DR if they are not subject to SR.
tarkin
09-29-06, 04:14 PM Savant is using a house rule (at least for spells). Don't know if he is right about psionics.

There is no rule that says conjuration is anything different or unuseal.

Note that the actual rule states that spells that do damage indirectly are never subject to SR, and implies that DR would help.

See the following spells for evidence:

Conjuration spells with SR
Storm of Vengence
Undead affected by Cure Light spells

Evocation spells without SR

Earthquake
HolySword

Transmutation spells without SR include

Bless Weapon
Flame Arrow.

For Both Holy Sword and Bless weapon, you definitely get DR. You also get DR against attacks made by summoned creatures.
Yak of Darkness
09-29-06, 04:20 PM Don't know if he is right about psionics.If you accept the "going against the actual text of the rules, and possibly pretending it was always this way, to nerf something in psionics that is unchanged in magic" sidebar in Complete Psionic, then he is.
mvincent
09-29-06, 05:03 PM If you accept the "going against the actual text of the rules, and possibly pretending it was always this way, to nerf something in psionics that is unchanged in magic" sidebar in Complete Psionic, then he is.I get the feeling that psionics were intended to function differently from magic in this way. Example: the Mental Resistance feat says: "Against psionic attacks that do not employ an energy type to deal damage you gain damage reduction 3/-."
Vengeblade
09-29-06, 09:30 PM I would agree that conjuration is subject to DR, but it's rarely an issue.
I know it's a spell, but the school of conjuration simply brings something into being.

I would assume that the monsters from the summon monster spells would have their attacks subject to DR as needed.

For example: Orb of force is subject to DR/- in my campaigns because it's just damage from a conjuration spell with no energgy type.

Orb of fire of course, would be subject as well. However, there is no DR/fire, only fire resistance, that's why it never comes up.
Ogre4Hire
09-30-06, 02:53 AM Is Magic Missile also subject to DR in your campaign? It works the same as Orb of Force...

Also, Tarkin, your examples are inaccurate. Holy Sword, Flame Arrow, and Bless Weapon don't target a creature, they target a weapon that can then be used to attack a creature.
Neutronium_Dragon
09-30-06, 04:09 AM Orb of Force would bypass DR. It's a spell and it's not inflicting the damage via an intermediary.
Vengeblade
09-30-06, 04:41 AM Orb of Force would bypass DR. It's a spell and it's not inflicting the damage via an intermediary.
I don't doubt that by the rules, one could interpret it that it would bypass DR.

However, conjuration spells (mainly ones dealing with force) summon something into the world and then that item does whatever it does.

Force is not an energy type so it only does untyped damage, much like a sword. However it is a spell, so magic missile, orb of force, and the like are subject to DR/-.

DR/- represents the ability to shrug off any physical form of punisment,a nd since force spell damage simply does damage (no energy type, alignment, etc.), I've ruled that it is subject to DR/-. Just how my games work. It's hardly ever an issue in my campaign.
runestar
09-30-06, 05:47 AM Force is a type of energy, just that it is not one of the 5 elemental energies, and no resistance to it exists, save for the immunity of the epic force dragons.:P
Vengeblade
09-30-06, 05:55 AM Force is a type of energy, just that it is not one of the 5 elemental energies, and no resistance to it exists, save for the immunity of the epic force dragons.:P

But since they list it as just damage, not as force damage, I treat it as normal damage since that is how it is written.
x.ALUCARD.x
09-30-06, 07:13 AM But since they list it as just damage, not as force damage, I treat it as normal damage since that is how it is written.

It requires a simple deduction, a globe of force will surely not deal acid damage. But, by the RAW, the spell really inflicts nonspecified damage.
However, by the RAW again, unspecified damage inflicted by spells isn't subject to DR.

So, what do you intend to do?

Force is a type of energy, just that it is not one of the 5 elemental energies, and no resistance to it exists, save for the immunity of the epic force dragons.

However there's the Forceward spell (SC, 4th level in Sorcerer/Wizard list), that provides immunity to all force effects.
Vengeblade
09-30-06, 07:45 AM So, what do you intend to do?

I intend to keep doind it as I have been. I have my view on conjuration spell and force magic.

Force is just that, a force. Hitting someone is just force too.
It doesn't list a type of damage and as far as I'm concerned conjuration spells merely summon something to an area and give it a direction in the case of the orbs. They aren't subject to spell resistance like many of their "energy" spell cousins, so I treat it as an orb of whatever it is, and an orb of force is just like hitting someone with a really dense object.

That's how I do, feel free to disagree. Just my 2 copper.
x.ALUCARD.x
09-30-06, 08:22 AM Force is just that, a force. Hitting someone is just force too.

Not in D&D game: force damage isn't physical damage.

It doesn't list a type of damage and as far as I'm concerned conjuration spells merely summon something to an area and give it a direction in the case of the orbs.

Orb of fire conjure something too. So?
Not all conjured effects should be affected by damage reduction, even reasoning like you do.

They aren't subject to spell resistance like many of their "energy" spell cousins, so I treat it as an orb of whatever it is, and an orb of force is just like hitting someone with a really dense object.

But you're not right.
There's nowhere in the rules that could make someone think so.
Vengeblade
09-30-06, 08:38 AM Right but in every spell description, when it list damage it will list how much and what type. Under force spell it never gives a type of damage. Now, I know it says spells bypass DR, but seeing how summoned monsters and weapons still have to overcome DR, I figured the force spells would too.

The other orbs and the like specify energy damage in their full description, so DR isn't a problem, they will just check for energy resistance.

I've DMed for over 5 years now. My players love my game. I tweak the rules from campaign to campaign, making more in the image me and the palyers want. We all sat down and ran circles around each other about rules interaction, common seense, comparisons, etc. and we all agreed on this.

I was just originally stating that I agreed with part of the OPs statement.

I really don't care if it always follows the books word for word. Somethings need change from one DM's campaign to another.

For example, I run a gestalt game with 4-6 people with alignment varients, ability score boost variants, tons of class variants. I've added new abilities to classes that I felt were underpowered. I use a modified spell point system. I allow over 25 3.5 books to be used in my campaign. Each campaign takes place on the same planet, in a different part, making a collage of characters/players.

I really don't run things as per the norm. I really don't care if people outside my group like it or not. I follow spell descriptions and combat rules as they are written. My interpretation may be slightly off, but people have a tendancy to see things differently from one another.
x.ALUCARD.x
09-30-06, 02:53 PM Right but in every spell description, when it list damage it will list how much and what type. Under force spell it never gives a type of damage.

Magic missile
[...]dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage.

Now, I know it says spells bypass DR, but seeing how summoned monsters and weapons still have to overcome DR, I figured the force spells would too.

Summoned weapons and monsters often deal physical damage, and in such cases DR applies.
Force effects don't.

I really don't care if it always follows the books word for word. Somethings need change from one DM's campaign to another.

It's simply senseless, but everyone can play as he wants.
We are not talking about this point.

But since you said
Force is not an energy type so it only does untyped damage, much like a sword. However it is a spell, so magic missile, orb of force, and the like are subject to DR/-.
i have to tell you that it's a crap.
Vengeblade
09-30-06, 07:08 PM Magic missile
[...]dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage.

So magic missile list force damage, the others don't that I remember of. I'm not totally sure if they noticed that and put it in an errata.

All I'm saying is that when something says it just does damage, I interpret it as just that, regular damage.

Call it crap, I really don't care. In fact I find it rather amusing.

Considering the only DR that matters in this case is DR/- and it's rarely a problem, I haven't seen a major impact.

P.S. I wouldn't refer to it as senseless either, as this isn't something I randomly did without cause or concern.
Salla
09-30-06, 07:14 PM If I were to assign a damage type to a Magic Missile or Orb of Force, I'd call it Magical Bludgeoning Damage. I mean, y'know, 'Force' and all. But that's just me.
mvincent
09-30-06, 07:17 PM All I'm saying is that when something says it just does damage, I interpret it as just that, regular damage.I don't use the book that contains orb of force, so I'm curious: does it contain the [Force] descriptor? (similar to how magic missile (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMissile.htm) has "Evocation [Force]" under it's name)

Also, the D&D glossary has this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_forcedamage&alpha=F), if it helps:
"force damage
A special type of damage dealt by force effects, such as a magic missile spell. A force effect can strike incorporeal creatures without the normal miss chance associated with incorporeality."
Neutronium_Dragon
09-30-06, 07:49 PM Yes, Orb of Force is:

Conjuration (Creation) [Force]

Descriptors aren't school-specific except by happenstance.
mvincent
09-30-06, 08:09 PM If I were to assign a damage type to a Magic Missile or Orb of Force, I'd call it Magical Bludgeoning Damage. I mean, y'know, 'Force' and all. But that's just me.Note that by RAW, a spell that does bludgeoning damage still bypasses DR.

However, assigning a damage type where one is not given seems unwarranted and possibly overcomplicated (and would say, allow magic missiles to be more effective versus skeletons than normal). Also, casters can have their magic missiles look similar to arrows, darts, knives etc.

I believe that if force damage could be further typed, it would've been noted in the spiritual weapon description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spiritualWeapon.htm):
"The weapon takes the shape of a weapon favored by your deity or a weapon with some spiritual significance or symbolism to you (see below) and has the same threat range and critical multipliers as a real weapon of its form."
x.ALUCARD.x
09-30-06, 08:11 PM All I'm saying is that when something says it just does damage, I interpret it as just that, regular damage.

"Regular" damage has no sense.
You interpret it as "physical" damage, but there isn't anything that supports your assumption.
To the contrary, force damage is specifically listed as a special type of damage that differences from physical damage.

Considering the only DR that matters in this case is DR/- and it's rarely a problem, I haven't seen a major impact.

We are not giving an opinion about your interpretation's impact in game, we're telling you that the game system does not agree with you.
If it's clear, the debate is ended.
mvincent
09-30-06, 08:16 PM Yes, Orb of Force is:

Conjuration (Creation) [Force]Sounds to me like the writer's made a mistake in not specifying force damage in the spell's description. I've seen worse mistakes. Given the spell's name and descriptor, I would not take this omission to mean that the spell doesn't do force damage.
Salla
09-30-06, 08:17 PM Note that by RAW, a spell that does bludgeoning damage still bypasses DR.

However, assigning a damage type where one is not given seems unwarranted and possibly overcomplicated (and would say, allow magic missiles to be more effective versus skeletons than normal). Also, casters can have their magic missiles look similar to arrows, darts, knives etc.

I believe that if force damage could be further typed, it would've been noted in the spiritual weapon description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spiritualWeapon.htm):
"The weapon takes the shape of a weapon favored by your deity or a weapon with some spiritual significance or symbolism to you (see below) and has the same threat range and critical multipliers as a real weapon of its form."

I've been considering using the 'Complete Psi' rule for spells, too. It makes more sense to me.
x.ALUCARD.x
09-30-06, 08:23 PM I've been considering using the 'Complete Psi' rule for spells, too. It makes more sense to me.

Note that the CPsi goes against the core rules with that sentence.
mvincent
09-30-06, 08:24 PM All I'm saying is that when something says it just does damage, I interpret it as just that, regular damage.Strictly by RAW (due to a writer's mistake), you did indeed have a case to not interpret orb of force as force damage.

However, even if it was not force damage, DR would still not apply. From the 3.5 FAQ:
"How do spells like Evard�s black tentacles and ice storm
affect a creature with damage reduction overcome by magic
and bludgeoning? Do the tentacles and hailstones deal
magical bludgeoning damage?
Any damage dealt by a spell or other magical effect is
unaffected by damage reduction."

Note that the tentacles seem very real and physical (and even do bludgeoning damage), but are still unaffected by DR (I could possibly provide links to lengthy discussions on this if desired)
Vengeblade
10-01-06, 05:55 AM So we all agree that this is pointless and nonsensical?

Yay, my job is done.:D
x.ALUCARD.x
10-01-06, 07:33 AM So we all agree that this is pointless and nonsensical?

To let spells that inflicts physical damage bypass DR? Perhaps someone do it.
To allow DR against force spells? Obviously no, we don't.
Vengeblade
10-01-06, 07:40 AM I was referring to the debate.

Sometimes I just like to see how far it'll drag out before it dies.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Stealth_Ninja 09-27-06, 01:05 PM	OOOK, so this is kind of a weird subject, but lets say a creature have a damage reduction to silver, cold Iron, bludgeoning or something like that, how can you bypass it with a spell, there are no spells that do cold Iron damage. Does magic overide damage reduction? Or else how do you bypass DR with spells?
mvincent 09-27-06, 01:12 PM	Does magic overide damage reduction?Yes. Creatures with DR (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction) take "normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities."
Stealth_Ninja 09-27-06, 01:16 PM	What book is that from?
Xybot 09-27-06, 02:03 PM	Its in my Players Handbook on page 307, under Damage Reduction (DR). :rolleyes:
runestar 09-27-06, 11:19 PM	Note that even if a spell does piercing damage, it would still not be reduced by dr since it is a spell.:)
Jhaelen 09-28-06, 04:50 PM	Note that even if a spell does piercing damage, it would still not be reduced by dr since it is a spell.:)Funnily, the same is not true for psionic powers - if you believe the sidebar in 'complete psionic', that is...:rolleyes:
Neutronium_Dragon 09-28-06, 06:14 PM	An indirect effect from a spell might be, though, or if the spell's effect is one of the "launch a weapon/etc at the target" types, such as Launch Bolt.
savant_warlord13 09-29-06, 03:40 PM	Note: Conjuration spells and Metacreation powers that do not deal energy damage are subject to DR if they are not subject to SR.
tarkin 09-29-06, 04:14 PM	Savant is using a house rule (at least for spells). Don't know if he is right about psionics. There is no rule that says conjuration is anything different or unuseal. Note that the actual rule states that spells that do damage indirectly are never subject to SR, and implies that DR would help. See the following spells for evidence: Conjuration spells with SR Storm of Vengence Undead affected by Cure Light spells Evocation spells without SR Earthquake HolySword Transmutation spells without SR include Bless Weapon Flame Arrow. For Both Holy Sword and Bless weapon, you definitely get DR. You also get DR against attacks made by summoned creatures.
Yak of Darkness 09-29-06, 04:20 PM	Don't know if he is right about psionics.If you accept the "going against the actual text of the rules, and possibly pretending it was always this way, to nerf something in psionics that is unchanged in magic" sidebar in Complete Psionic, then he is.
mvincent 09-29-06, 05:03 PM	If you accept the "going against the actual text of the rules, and possibly pretending it was always this way, to nerf something in psionics that is unchanged in magic" sidebar in Complete Psionic, then he is.I get the feeling that psionics were intended to function differently from magic in this way. Example: the Mental Resistance feat says: "Against psionic attacks that do not employ an energy type to deal damage you gain damage reduction 3/-."
Vengeblade 09-29-06, 09:30 PM	I would agree that conjuration is subject to DR, but it's rarely an issue. I know it's a spell, but the school of conjuration simply brings something into being. I would assume that the monsters from the summon monster spells would have their attacks subject to DR as needed. For example: Orb of force is subject to DR/- in my campaigns because it's just damage from a conjuration spell with no energgy type. Orb of fire of course, would be subject as well. However, there is no DR/fire, only fire resistance, that's why it never comes up.
Ogre4Hire 09-30-06, 02:53 AM	Is Magic Missile also subject to DR in your campaign? It works the same as Orb of Force... Also, Tarkin, your examples are inaccurate. Holy Sword, Flame Arrow, and Bless Weapon don't target a creature, they target a weapon that can then be used to attack a creature.
Neutronium_Dragon 09-30-06, 04:09 AM	Orb of Force would bypass DR. It's a spell and it's not inflicting the damage via an intermediary.
Vengeblade 09-30-06, 04:41 AM	Orb of Force would bypass DR. It's a spell and it's not inflicting the damage via an intermediary. I don't doubt that by the rules, one could interpret it that it would bypass DR. However, conjuration spells (mainly ones dealing with force) summon something into the world and then that item does whatever it does. Force is not an energy type so it only does untyped damage, much like a sword. However it is a spell, so magic missile, orb of force, and the like are subject to DR/-. DR/- represents the ability to shrug off any physical form of punisment,a nd since force spell damage simply does damage (no energy type, alignment, etc.), I've ruled that it is subject to DR/-. Just how my games work. It's hardly ever an issue in my campaign.
runestar 09-30-06, 05:47 AM	Force is a type of energy, just that it is not one of the 5 elemental energies, and no resistance to it exists, save for the immunity of the epic force dragons.:P
Vengeblade 09-30-06, 05:55 AM	Force is a type of energy, just that it is not one of the 5 elemental energies, and no resistance to it exists, save for the immunity of the epic force dragons.:P But since they list it as just damage, not as force damage, I treat it as normal damage since that is how it is written.
x.ALUCARD.x 09-30-06, 07:13 AM	But since they list it as just damage, not as force damage, I treat it as normal damage since that is how it is written. It requires a simple deduction, a globe of force will surely not deal acid damage. But, by the RAW, the spell really inflicts nonspecified damage. However, by the RAW again, unspecified damage inflicted by spells isn't subject to DR. So, what do you intend to do? Force is a type of energy, just that it is not one of the 5 elemental energies, and no resistance to it exists, save for the immunity of the epic force dragons. However there's the Forceward spell (SC, 4th level in Sorcerer/Wizard list), that provides immunity to all force effects.
Vengeblade 09-30-06, 07:45 AM	So, what do you intend to do? I intend to keep doind it as I have been. I have my view on conjuration spell and force magic. Force is just that, a force. Hitting someone is just force too. It doesn't list a type of damage and as far as I'm concerned conjuration spells merely summon something to an area and give it a direction in the case of the orbs. They aren't subject to spell resistance like many of their "energy" spell cousins, so I treat it as an orb of whatever it is, and an orb of force is just like hitting someone with a really dense object. That's how I do, feel free to disagree. Just my 2 copper.
x.ALUCARD.x 09-30-06, 08:22 AM	Force is just that, a force. Hitting someone is just force too. Not in D&D game: force damage isn't physical damage. It doesn't list a type of damage and as far as I'm concerned conjuration spells merely summon something to an area and give it a direction in the case of the orbs. Orb of fire conjure something too. So? Not all conjured effects should be affected by damage reduction, even reasoning like you do. They aren't subject to spell resistance like many of their "energy" spell cousins, so I treat it as an orb of whatever it is, and an orb of force is just like hitting someone with a really dense object. But you're not right. There's nowhere in the rules that could make someone think so.
Vengeblade 09-30-06, 08:38 AM	Right but in every spell description, when it list damage it will list how much and what type. Under force spell it never gives a type of damage. Now, I know it says spells bypass DR, but seeing how summoned monsters and weapons still have to overcome DR, I figured the force spells would too. The other orbs and the like specify energy damage in their full description, so DR isn't a problem, they will just check for energy resistance. I've DMed for over 5 years now. My players love my game. I tweak the rules from campaign to campaign, making more in the image me and the palyers want. We all sat down and ran circles around each other about rules interaction, common seense, comparisons, etc. and we all agreed on this. I was just originally stating that I agreed with part of the OPs statement. I really don't care if it always follows the books word for word. Somethings need change from one DM's campaign to another. For example, I run a gestalt game with 4-6 people with alignment varients, ability score boost variants, tons of class variants. I've added new abilities to classes that I felt were underpowered. I use a modified spell point system. I allow over 25 3.5 books to be used in my campaign. Each campaign takes place on the same planet, in a different part, making a collage of characters/players. I really don't run things as per the norm. I really don't care if people outside my group like it or not. I follow spell descriptions and combat rules as they are written. My interpretation may be slightly off, but people have a tendancy to see things differently from one another.
x.ALUCARD.x 09-30-06, 02:53 PM	Right but in every spell description, when it list damage it will list how much and what type. Under force spell it never gives a type of damage. Magic missile [...]dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage. Now, I know it says spells bypass DR, but seeing how summoned monsters and weapons still have to overcome DR, I figured the force spells would too. Summoned weapons and monsters often deal physical damage, and in such cases DR applies. Force effects don't. I really don't care if it always follows the books word for word. Somethings need change from one DM's campaign to another. It's simply senseless, but everyone can play as he wants. We are not talking about this point. But since you said Force is not an energy type so it only does untyped damage, much like a sword. However it is a spell, so magic missile, orb of force, and the like are subject to DR/-. i have to tell you that it's a crap.
Vengeblade 09-30-06, 07:08 PM	Magic missile [...]dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage. So magic missile list force damage, the others don't that I remember of. I'm not totally sure if they noticed that and put it in an errata. All I'm saying is that when something says it just does damage, I interpret it as just that, regular damage. Call it crap, I really don't care. In fact I find it rather amusing. Considering the only DR that matters in this case is DR/- and it's rarely a problem, I haven't seen a major impact. P.S. I wouldn't refer to it as senseless either, as this isn't something I randomly did without cause or concern.
Salla 09-30-06, 07:14 PM	If I were to assign a damage type to a Magic Missile or Orb of Force, I'd call it Magical Bludgeoning Damage. I mean, y'know, 'Force' and all. But that's just me.
mvincent 09-30-06, 07:17 PM	All I'm saying is that when something says it just does damage, I interpret it as just that, regular damage.I don't use the book that contains orb of force, so I'm curious: does it contain the [Force] descriptor? (similar to how magic missile (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMissile.htm) has "Evocation [Force]" under it's name) Also, the D&D glossary has this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_forcedamage&alpha=F), if it helps: "force damage A special type of damage dealt by force effects, such as a magic missile spell. A force effect can strike incorporeal creatures without the normal miss chance associated with incorporeality."
Neutronium_Dragon 09-30-06, 07:49 PM	Yes, Orb of Force is: Conjuration (Creation) [Force] Descriptors aren't school-specific except by happenstance.
mvincent 09-30-06, 08:09 PM	If I were to assign a damage type to a Magic Missile or Orb of Force, I'd call it Magical Bludgeoning Damage. I mean, y'know, 'Force' and all. But that's just me.Note that by RAW, a spell that does bludgeoning damage still bypasses DR. However, assigning a damage type where one is not given seems unwarranted and possibly overcomplicated (and would say, allow magic missiles to be more effective versus skeletons than normal). Also, casters can have their magic missiles look similar to arrows, darts, knives etc. I believe that if force damage could be further typed, it would've been noted in the spiritual weapon description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spiritualWeapon.htm): "The weapon takes the shape of a weapon favored by your deity or a weapon with some spiritual significance or symbolism to you (see below) and has the same threat range and critical multipliers as a real weapon of its form."
x.ALUCARD.x 09-30-06, 08:11 PM	All I'm saying is that when something says it just does damage, I interpret it as just that, regular damage. "Regular" damage has no sense. You interpret it as "physical" damage, but there isn't anything that supports your assumption. To the contrary, force damage is specifically listed as a special type of damage that differences from physical damage. Considering the only DR that matters in this case is DR/- and it's rarely a problem, I haven't seen a major impact. We are not giving an opinion about your interpretation's impact in game, we're telling you that the game system does not agree with you. If it's clear, the debate is ended.
mvincent 09-30-06, 08:16 PM	Yes, Orb of Force is: Conjuration (Creation) [Force]Sounds to me like the writer's made a mistake in not specifying force damage in the spell's description. I've seen worse mistakes. Given the spell's name and descriptor, I would not take this omission to mean that the spell doesn't do force damage.
Salla 09-30-06, 08:17 PM	Note that by RAW, a spell that does bludgeoning damage still bypasses DR. However, assigning a damage type where one is not given seems unwarranted and possibly overcomplicated (and would say, allow magic missiles to be more effective versus skeletons than normal). Also, casters can have their magic missiles look similar to arrows, darts, knives etc. I believe that if force damage could be further typed, it would've been noted in the spiritual weapon description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spiritualWeapon.htm): "The weapon takes the shape of a weapon favored by your deity or a weapon with some spiritual significance or symbolism to you (see below) and has the same threat range and critical multipliers as a real weapon of its form." I've been considering using the 'Complete Psi' rule for spells, too. It makes more sense to me.
x.ALUCARD.x 09-30-06, 08:23 PM	I've been considering using the 'Complete Psi' rule for spells, too. It makes more sense to me. Note that the CPsi goes against the core rules with that sentence.
mvincent 09-30-06, 08:24 PM	All I'm saying is that when something says it just does damage, I interpret it as just that, regular damage.Strictly by RAW (due to a writer's mistake), you did indeed have a case to not interpret orb of force as force damage. However, even if it was not force damage, DR would still not apply. From the 3.5 FAQ: "How do spells like Evard�s black tentacles and ice storm affect a creature with damage reduction overcome by magic and bludgeoning? Do the tentacles and hailstones deal magical bludgeoning damage? Any damage dealt by a spell or other magical effect is unaffected by damage reduction." Note that the tentacles seem very real and physical (and even do bludgeoning damage), but are still unaffected by DR (I could possibly provide links to lengthy discussions on this if desired)
Vengeblade 10-01-06, 05:55 AM	So we all agree that this is pointless and nonsensical? Yay, my job is done.:D
x.ALUCARD.x 10-01-06, 07:33 AM	So we all agree that this is pointless and nonsensical? To let spells that inflicts physical damage bypass DR? Perhaps someone do it. To allow DR against force spells? Obviously no, we don't.
Vengeblade 10-01-06, 07:40 AM	I was referring to the debate. Sometimes I just like to see how far it'll drag out before it dies.