Damage to much? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Damage to much? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Majick
06-15-07, 10:29 AM Does anyone think 20d8 + double strength (and double any other modifiers) is too much for a monk to be doing by level 11 as a Full-Round Action, single punch?

One of my group members seems to think i am going to outshine everyone, and, being a usual fighter character, i am kinda inclined to agree, but what do you think?
Rustmonster
06-15-07, 10:36 AM Does anyone think 20d8 + double strength (and double any other modifiers) is too much for a monk to be doing by level 11 as a Full-Round Action, single punch?

One of my group members seems to think i am going to outshine everyone, and, being a usual fighter character, i am kinda inclined to agree, but what do you think?

How did you get to this much damage at 11 MONK?
Knightblde
06-15-07, 10:38 AM Was the 20d8 a typo? Should it be 2d8? Can you do it once a round? If so, yeah, 20d8 is a lot of damage. To much to do at anytime, im my opinion. That is more powerful than a level 20 Fireball.
deviknyte
06-15-07, 10:43 AM If it's 20d8, yes it's broken and how'd you do it? If not, no go about your business. Melee characters deal out all the damage anyways.
Majick
06-15-07, 10:45 AM How did you get to this much damage at 11 MONK?

Large sized monk

monks belt, superior unarmed strike = +9 to monk level to determine strikes

improved natural attack, warforged battle gauntlet/glove things, some ring i have read about that costs 10K = + 3 size enhancements to unarmed damage

PHB2 Variant monk attack: One attack that does double damage as a full round action instead of flurry

woo :cool:
Matthew77
06-15-07, 10:49 AM 120 average damage as a full round action at level 11?

That's good, but not outrageous.

A flanking full attack from a twf Rogue can do 90 or so.. more depending on their weapon.

A mounted lancer can do more on a charge.

The wizard can do Flesh to Stone.

The cleric can do Slay living.

I have two questions...
1) is this a high-powered campaign, so that level of damage is in line with the other character's capabilities,

and

2) what is your total to-hit modifier with that attack?
Majick
06-15-07, 10:57 AM I have two questions...
1) is this a high-powered campaign, so that level of damage is in line with the other character's capabilities,

and

2) what is your total to-hit modifier with that attack?

1) 16, 16, 14, 14, 12, 12 statistics, any races or templates you want

2) 11th level monk BaB (obviosly), +5 (or perhaps more) from strength, +1 from Weapon Focus (unarmed)

After level 11 i am gonna go a Kensai and magic up my fists to +5 as soon as possible to compensate my "too hit" but i was also considering a Shadow Strike enchantment to go through ANY damage reduction bar epic
Dalthbar
06-15-07, 11:00 AM Realize that this is an issue not with your character, but with how your DM gives out items and equipment.

If he's allowing you to get "exactly what you need" to optimize your character but the other players are getting crap, then this is something the DM needs to deal with.

You're using a bunch of non-core material to make this happen - DMG2 variant rules, eberron equipment, "some ring you read about"... etc.

So this isn't something that the other player should be taking up with you. The player should be asking the DM why he's not evenly handing out useful items the entire party can use.
Dalthbar
06-15-07, 11:01 AM 1) 16, 16, 14, 14, 12, 12 statistics, any races or templates you want
So what race are you and are you taking into account the level adjustment that would have to be present in order for that race to be large?
Salla
06-15-07, 11:03 AM some ring i have read about that costs 10K = + 3 size enhancements to unarmed damage

As in 'count three sizes larger'? This is one of those things I'd certainly want some documentation on, especially for a meer 10,000gp.
glacialcat
06-15-07, 11:03 AM To much to do at anytime, im my opinion. That is more powerful than a level 20 Fireball.

You do know that Fireballs cap in damage at level 10 right? So most damage at Level 20 will beat a fireball, because a fireball isn't any stronger at Lv.20 than it is at Lv.10. And the fact that Fireball is a third level spell, when a Lv.20 Wizard will have 9th level spells? Which means at the least, you should be comparing this to Meteor Swarm, which is pretty weak for a level 9 spell, but still does more damage than that.
Majick
06-15-07, 11:05 AM You're using a bunch of non-core material to make this happen - DMG2 variant rules, eberron equipment, "some ring you read about"... etc.

The variant attack and (most) equipment are legal 3.5 rules, nothing wrong with them

the one thing that isn't 3.5 is the ring, i think it's 3.0, but he is allowing SOME 3.0 source material, and it seems ok, but even if not, it's still 16d8 + double everything - per punch

As for being able to get them on demand, we'll see if i can get them when i have the gold, but in a perfect game, in other words if i could, then this is the damage i could be dealing by lvl 11

My question was: is this too much?
darkeness
06-15-07, 11:10 AM This is also based on the use of stunning fist so it does have a limited use per day. It is also a "hit or miss" type of attack so given the lower BAB of the monk it has a decent chance of missing the BBEG. It would be pretty useful against large, low AC opponants though.

Based on the fact that you get to pick & choose your equipment to make this happen that means you either can buy any item you need as you level up or you are starting at level 11, either way the other players should have the same options as you.

Last suggestion, run it by the DM first so he knows what you are packing. As a DM mydelf I can deal with such munchkin behavior as long as I know it is there.
tarkin
06-15-07, 11:12 AM that ring is total garbage.

a single real size increase is worth 10,000 gp.

x3 is worth a lot more, even if you don't have reach.

And then it should NOT stack with the other size based damage increases you got.

Something grants a +3 size increase to weapon damage, stacking with any other size based thing you have, is going to be closer to 100,000 gp.
Matthew77
06-15-07, 11:15 AM +14 to hit at level 11... means you are at least ECL 12 for getting large size from your race.

So you are missing about 50% of the time against CR 12-14 monsters.

The problem with these double damage single attacks is that if you miss one roll you do absolutely no damage to your foe.

And you are losing one of a monk's advantages of mobility by having to do a full attack action.

I bet a well-built two handed weapon using melee character in a high-power campaign will average just as much damage as you are. Sure, it'll be memorable when you get a good hit and one-shot something, but you're also going to spend a lot of effort getting into position and then missing your big attack.

Is the DM having a panic attack by seeing all those damage dice and not thinking it through, or are you just curious what other players think?

I'd have to see the stats on the rest of the party, but honestly, this doesn't seem gamebreaking to me. It's a decent character idea that has some nice combat power, that's all.
Majick
06-15-07, 11:23 AM that ring is total garbage.

a single real size increase is worth 10,000 gp.

x3 is worth a lot more, even if you don't have reach.

And then it should NOT stack with the other size based damage increases you got.

Something grants a +3 size increase to weapon damage, stacking with any other size based thing you have, is going to be closer to 100,000 gp.

Er... what? I have three seperate things that increase my size

Side Note: How is this based on stunning fist?

a feat (well... it's feat)

a gauntlet thing from Eberron (not magical, just bigger)

a ring (magical)

Why wouldn't they stack? The character OP board guys have run through heaps of these simulations and they seem to work - this is a MILD to LOW POWER build if anything by THEIR standards

I just like the flavour of a big one hit one punch kinda character (plus sunder it fun too!)
tarkin
06-15-07, 11:36 AM I found a ring that he might be thinking of.

The following Ring was published in Dragon Magazine, issue # 308.

That would make it 3.0, not 3.5, if that matters too you (at the very least it should make you pause and warn the DM to check it out)

Fanged Ring

Price: 10,000 gp

Gain Improved Unarmed Strike feat.
Unarmed Damage increases by ONE categor. Category refers to monk attack categor, not size category.
Unarmed criticals do some con damage.

That is the closet thing I could find. It clearly is not +3 sizes categories
tarkin
06-15-07, 11:43 AM Er... what? I have three seperate things that increase my size

Side Note: How is this based on stunning fist?

a feat (well... it's feat)

a gauntlet thing from Eberron (not magical, just bigger)

a ring (magical)

Why wouldn't they stack? The character OP board guys have run through heaps of these simulations and they seem to work - this is a MILD to LOW POWER build if anything by THEIR standards

I just like the flavour of a big one hit one punch kinda character (plus sunder it fun too!)

Oh sorry, I thought you had a ring for 10,000 gp that increases your size by THREE categories, not a total of 3.

As for not stacking, lots of size stuff does not stack. They often say "one category bigger than NORMAL", not one category bigger than you currently get.

Finally, the OP people are not the best source of information.

Character Optimization is a bit of "one upmanship". Each person says "that sucks, try THIS out for suze".

In addition a LOT of people never even attempt to "Optimize" their character. They are here for roleplaying, not for mere combat.

End result:
1. Character Optimization boards are mostly full of people who think combat is the be-all and end-all. I.E. 90% of the people that go there are Power Gamers, not Loose/Strict players.

2. As a DM that lets you get away with more stuff will ALWAYS have more powerfull stuff than a DM that does not, pretty much the most powerfull stuff in the CO boards are always the most Power of Power Gamers. I.E. the "powerfull builds" are all illegal in Loose games.

3. If you are playing a Power Game/Anything Goes , then it is a reliable source of suggestions for things that your DM might allow. If you are playing a Strict or Loose game, I would vet anything they said seperately.
Majick
06-15-07, 11:48 AM As for not stacking, lots of size stuff does not stack. They often say "one category bigger than NORMAL", not one category bigger than you currently get.

So... is there an errata or official wizards conclusion somewhere on this? FAQ's? Perhaps something in a 3.5 book you can point me too?
Matthew77
06-15-07, 12:00 PM The key is in the wording of the feat or item.

If it says "one size category more than normal", it won't stack.

If it says "one size category larger", then it will.

Same reason monkey grip and powerful build won't stack.
If you are medium, and you have two abilities that treat you as "one size category more than normal", then you are treated as large, not huge, because normal always refers to your base size, not your size plus other magical effects.
Majick
06-15-07, 12:13 PM Unnamed Bonuses

A bonus that doesn't have a name stacks with anything except itself. This is always true, but it's sometimes hard to remember. For example, many feats provide unnamed bonuses, so don't panic when you read a feat description and it provides a bonus without a name. An unnamed bonus from a feat stacks with any other bonus; however you can't stack that unnamed bonus if you take the feat twice.

Don't know if that has any weight in this or not but it may or may not be relevent :P

Anyway, from what i can read, the wording of Improved Natural Attack, the Fanged Ring and the Gauntlets/Battle Fists all say one size larger, not one size larger than normal... so... stack it up baby! :D
Dalthbar
06-15-07, 01:28 PM What is your race and what is the LA of it?

I take it that you are not taking the LA into account into the level 11 cap your DM gave or your DM simply isn't familiar with how LA works.
Fallenangel359
06-15-07, 02:24 PM Lol you think thats crazy?

Try 6 monk, 5 rogue

Get superior unarmed strike, monks belt, and monks tattoo

effective unarmed strike of level 20
add improved natural attack, and battlefists, along with being effected by an enlarge construct spell/infusion

up 3 size catagories from 2d10 puts you where?

Thats 6d8, and with sneak attack (acrobatic backstab, with snapkick feat, getting 2 hits), thats 12d8+6d6+2x str mod

plus that character can enhance the battlefists
Majick
06-17-07, 12:23 PM what does a monks tattoo do and where is it from?
mvincent
06-18-07, 04:38 PM Large sized monk

monks belt, superior unarmed strike = +9 to monk level to determine strikes

improved natural attack, warforged battle gauntlet/glove things, some ring i have read about that costs 10K = + 3 size enhancements to unarmed damageNice synergy here. Yes, 20d8 is a bit much at that level, and you will outshine your other party members (unless they too are extremely well optimized). But then, you likely knew that (and were just here to brag... not that there is anything wrong with that since you provided some excellent tips).

Still, at this level many fighter types may be doing similar amounts of damage via a full attack.
savant_warlord13
06-18-07, 07:57 PM Has anyone checked to make sure all of those feats and items will stack?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
06-18-07, 08:07 PM Hold on.

Damage as a 20th level monk is 2d10. Large monk is 4d8. Increasing it by three size categories is...

6d8
8d8
12d8

In short, you do not end up with 20d8+double Strength bonus. You would end up with 24d8+double Strength bonus, and would miss most of your attacks. Plus, taking a full-round action to attack as a monk is suicide.
savant_warlord13
06-18-07, 08:12 PM Hold on.

Damage as a 20th level monk is 2d10. Large monk is 4d8. Increasing it by three size categories is...

6d8
8d8
12d8

In short, you do not end up with 20d8+double Strength bonus. You would end up with 24d8+double Strength bonus, and would miss most of your attacks. Plus, taking a full-round action to attack as a monk is suicide.

Since when?
tui
06-18-07, 09:53 PM I think 20d8 is quite powerful for that level. Not to say no one else can build something better... but that wasn't the question. If you're not playing with other power gamers, you're likely to be overpowered.

That said, I'd like to look through your build.. I'm not particularly familiar with many of the things you used, so I had to look them up.

Large sized monk
Nothing wrong with that... From this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12758043) it looks like you're playing with a custom +2 LA large warforged. (It's hard to say if 20d8 is too much without knowing what we're comparing it against.)

monks belt, superior unarmed strike = +9 to monk level to determine strikes
It certainly isn't clear to me that these stack. I read through this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=859997&page=2) that you posted in (as well as several others), and I was swayed more by the arguments saying they don't stack.

Monk's Belt says: "The wearer�s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher."

Superior Unarmed Strike says: "If you are a monk, you instead deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher."

I interpret those as both saying that they treat your monk level as X levels higher than they actually are.. which means they wouldn't stack.

improved natural attack
INA says "The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature's size had increased by one step". That sounds pretty stack-able.

warforged battle gauntlet/glove things
Battlefists say "A warforged monk who uses a battlefist deals increased unarmed damage as though the character were one size larger than actual." "Larger than actual" sounds like it goes off your base size, and thus probably not stack-able.

some ring i have read about that costs 10K = + 3 size enhancements to unarmed damage
The Fanged Ring in Dragon #308 is 3.0. There's a new Fanged Ring in Dragon Magic. Because they have the same name, and essentially the same effect, you should use the new version.... which just gives IUS and INA, and does Con damage on a critical. So that wouldn't help this character.

PHB2 Variant monk attack: One attack that does double damage as a full round action instead of flurry
Decisive Strike (PHBII, pg 51) works just like you say and is a nice variation.

So I'm not sure what that ends up with... but it looks like it would take some VERY generous rule interpretations to get them all to work together. Be sure to run this by your DM in detail before trying to use it.
NobodyRemembersThis
06-19-07, 12:17 AM FYI.In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies.So, as TUI said, I am pretty sure not all of your chosen abilities stack.
tui
06-19-07, 10:38 AM So by my figuring, Monk's Belt and SUS don't stack, so you'd use the +5 levels from Monk's Belt, and so you'd do damage as a 16th level Monk (2d8 for Medium).

Your base size is Large, so damage increases to 3d8.

INA increases your stackable size to Huge, so damage becomes 4d8.

The Battlefist goes on top of that for 6d8.

So if you were to use the variant Monk that does double damage with a full attack, you'd do 12d8 + whatever. That's still not too shabby.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
06-21-07, 06:24 PM Since when?

Since monks had MAD, a d8 Hit Die, and an AC that quite frankly isn't that good. They go down fast.
Toki_Wartooth
06-21-07, 06:36 PM Since monks had MAD, a d8 Hit Die, and an AC that quite frankly isn't that good. They go down fast.I've never seen a monk that didn't try to get close and flurry as quickly (and as often) as possible, and all my long running campaigns have always had monks (much more than any other class).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Majick 06-15-07, 10:29 AM	Does anyone think 20d8 + double strength (and double any other modifiers) is too much for a monk to be doing by level 11 as a Full-Round Action, single punch? One of my group members seems to think i am going to outshine everyone, and, being a usual fighter character, i am kinda inclined to agree, but what do you think?
Rustmonster 06-15-07, 10:36 AM	Does anyone think 20d8 + double strength (and double any other modifiers) is too much for a monk to be doing by level 11 as a Full-Round Action, single punch? One of my group members seems to think i am going to outshine everyone, and, being a usual fighter character, i am kinda inclined to agree, but what do you think? How did you get to this much damage at 11 MONK?
Knightblde 06-15-07, 10:38 AM	Was the 20d8 a typo? Should it be 2d8? Can you do it once a round? If so, yeah, 20d8 is a lot of damage. To much to do at anytime, im my opinion. That is more powerful than a level 20 Fireball.
deviknyte 06-15-07, 10:43 AM	If it's 20d8, yes it's broken and how'd you do it? If not, no go about your business. Melee characters deal out all the damage anyways.
Majick 06-15-07, 10:45 AM	How did you get to this much damage at 11 MONK? Large sized monk monks belt, superior unarmed strike = +9 to monk level to determine strikes improved natural attack, warforged battle gauntlet/glove things, some ring i have read about that costs 10K = + 3 size enhancements to unarmed damage PHB2 Variant monk attack: One attack that does double damage as a full round action instead of flurry woo :cool:
Matthew77 06-15-07, 10:49 AM	120 average damage as a full round action at level 11? That's good, but not outrageous. A flanking full attack from a twf Rogue can do 90 or so.. more depending on their weapon. A mounted lancer can do more on a charge. The wizard can do Flesh to Stone. The cleric can do Slay living. I have two questions... 1) is this a high-powered campaign, so that level of damage is in line with the other character's capabilities, and 2) what is your total to-hit modifier with that attack?
Majick 06-15-07, 10:57 AM	I have two questions... 1) is this a high-powered campaign, so that level of damage is in line with the other character's capabilities, and 2) what is your total to-hit modifier with that attack? 1) 16, 16, 14, 14, 12, 12 statistics, any races or templates you want 2) 11th level monk BaB (obviosly), +5 (or perhaps more) from strength, +1 from Weapon Focus (unarmed) After level 11 i am gonna go a Kensai and magic up my fists to +5 as soon as possible to compensate my "too hit" but i was also considering a Shadow Strike enchantment to go through ANY damage reduction bar epic
Dalthbar 06-15-07, 11:00 AM	Realize that this is an issue not with your character, but with how your DM gives out items and equipment. If he's allowing you to get "exactly what you need" to optimize your character but the other players are getting crap, then this is something the DM needs to deal with. You're using a bunch of non-core material to make this happen - DMG2 variant rules, eberron equipment, "some ring you read about"... etc. So this isn't something that the other player should be taking up with you. The player should be asking the DM why he's not evenly handing out useful items the entire party can use.
Dalthbar 06-15-07, 11:01 AM	1) 16, 16, 14, 14, 12, 12 statistics, any races or templates you want So what race are you and are you taking into account the level adjustment that would have to be present in order for that race to be large?
Salla 06-15-07, 11:03 AM	some ring i have read about that costs 10K = + 3 size enhancements to unarmed damage As in 'count three sizes larger'? This is one of those things I'd certainly want some documentation on, especially for a meer 10,000gp.
glacialcat 06-15-07, 11:03 AM	To much to do at anytime, im my opinion. That is more powerful than a level 20 Fireball. You do know that Fireballs cap in damage at level 10 right? So most damage at Level 20 will beat a fireball, because a fireball isn't any stronger at Lv.20 than it is at Lv.10. And the fact that Fireball is a third level spell, when a Lv.20 Wizard will have 9th level spells? Which means at the least, you should be comparing this to Meteor Swarm, which is pretty weak for a level 9 spell, but still does more damage than that.
Majick 06-15-07, 11:05 AM	You're using a bunch of non-core material to make this happen - DMG2 variant rules, eberron equipment, "some ring you read about"... etc. The variant attack and (most) equipment are legal 3.5 rules, nothing wrong with them the one thing that isn't 3.5 is the ring, i think it's 3.0, but he is allowing SOME 3.0 source material, and it seems ok, but even if not, it's still 16d8 + double everything - per punch As for being able to get them on demand, we'll see if i can get them when i have the gold, but in a perfect game, in other words if i could, then this is the damage i could be dealing by lvl 11 My question was: is this too much?
darkeness 06-15-07, 11:10 AM	This is also based on the use of stunning fist so it does have a limited use per day. It is also a "hit or miss" type of attack so given the lower BAB of the monk it has a decent chance of missing the BBEG. It would be pretty useful against large, low AC opponants though. Based on the fact that you get to pick & choose your equipment to make this happen that means you either can buy any item you need as you level up or you are starting at level 11, either way the other players should have the same options as you. Last suggestion, run it by the DM first so he knows what you are packing. As a DM mydelf I can deal with such munchkin behavior as long as I know it is there.
tarkin 06-15-07, 11:12 AM	that ring is total garbage. a single real size increase is worth 10,000 gp. x3 is worth a lot more, even if you don't have reach. And then it should NOT stack with the other size based damage increases you got. Something grants a +3 size increase to weapon damage, stacking with any other size based thing you have, is going to be closer to 100,000 gp.
Matthew77 06-15-07, 11:15 AM	+14 to hit at level 11... means you are at least ECL 12 for getting large size from your race. So you are missing about 50% of the time against CR 12-14 monsters. The problem with these double damage single attacks is that if you miss one roll you do absolutely no damage to your foe. And you are losing one of a monk's advantages of mobility by having to do a full attack action. I bet a well-built two handed weapon using melee character in a high-power campaign will average just as much damage as you are. Sure, it'll be memorable when you get a good hit and one-shot something, but you're also going to spend a lot of effort getting into position and then missing your big attack. Is the DM having a panic attack by seeing all those damage dice and not thinking it through, or are you just curious what other players think? I'd have to see the stats on the rest of the party, but honestly, this doesn't seem gamebreaking to me. It's a decent character idea that has some nice combat power, that's all.
Majick 06-15-07, 11:23 AM	that ring is total garbage. a single real size increase is worth 10,000 gp. x3 is worth a lot more, even if you don't have reach. And then it should NOT stack with the other size based damage increases you got. Something grants a +3 size increase to weapon damage, stacking with any other size based thing you have, is going to be closer to 100,000 gp. Er... what? I have three seperate things that increase my size Side Note: How is this based on stunning fist? a feat (well... it's feat) a gauntlet thing from Eberron (not magical, just bigger) a ring (magical) Why wouldn't they stack? The character OP board guys have run through heaps of these simulations and they seem to work - this is a MILD to LOW POWER build if anything by THEIR standards I just like the flavour of a big one hit one punch kinda character (plus sunder it fun too!)
tarkin 06-15-07, 11:36 AM	I found a ring that he might be thinking of. The following Ring was published in Dragon Magazine, issue # 308. That would make it 3.0, not 3.5, if that matters too you (at the very least it should make you pause and warn the DM to check it out) Fanged Ring Price: 10,000 gp Gain Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Unarmed Damage increases by ONE categor. Category refers to monk attack categor, not size category. Unarmed criticals do some con damage. That is the closet thing I could find. It clearly is not +3 sizes categories
tarkin 06-15-07, 11:43 AM	Er... what? I have three seperate things that increase my size Side Note: How is this based on stunning fist? a feat (well... it's feat) a gauntlet thing from Eberron (not magical, just bigger) a ring (magical) Why wouldn't they stack? The character OP board guys have run through heaps of these simulations and they seem to work - this is a MILD to LOW POWER build if anything by THEIR standards I just like the flavour of a big one hit one punch kinda character (plus sunder it fun too!) Oh sorry, I thought you had a ring for 10,000 gp that increases your size by THREE categories, not a total of 3. As for not stacking, lots of size stuff does not stack. They often say "one category bigger than NORMAL", not one category bigger than you currently get. Finally, the OP people are not the best source of information. Character Optimization is a bit of "one upmanship". Each person says "that sucks, try THIS out for suze". In addition a LOT of people never even attempt to "Optimize" their character. They are here for roleplaying, not for mere combat. End result: 1. Character Optimization boards are mostly full of people who think combat is the be-all and end-all. I.E. 90% of the people that go there are Power Gamers, not Loose/Strict players. 2. As a DM that lets you get away with more stuff will ALWAYS have more powerfull stuff than a DM that does not, pretty much the most powerfull stuff in the CO boards are always the most Power of Power Gamers. I.E. the "powerfull builds" are all illegal in Loose games. 3. If you are playing a Power Game/Anything Goes , then it is a reliable source of suggestions for things that your DM might allow. If you are playing a Strict or Loose game, I would vet anything they said seperately.
Majick 06-15-07, 11:48 AM	As for not stacking, lots of size stuff does not stack. They often say "one category bigger than NORMAL", not one category bigger than you currently get. So... is there an errata or official wizards conclusion somewhere on this? FAQ's? Perhaps something in a 3.5 book you can point me too?
Matthew77 06-15-07, 12:00 PM	The key is in the wording of the feat or item. If it says "one size category more than normal", it won't stack. If it says "one size category larger", then it will. Same reason monkey grip and powerful build won't stack. If you are medium, and you have two abilities that treat you as "one size category more than normal", then you are treated as large, not huge, because normal always refers to your base size, not your size plus other magical effects.
Majick 06-15-07, 12:13 PM	Unnamed Bonuses A bonus that doesn't have a name stacks with anything except itself. This is always true, but it's sometimes hard to remember. For example, many feats provide unnamed bonuses, so don't panic when you read a feat description and it provides a bonus without a name. An unnamed bonus from a feat stacks with any other bonus; however you can't stack that unnamed bonus if you take the feat twice. Don't know if that has any weight in this or not but it may or may not be relevent :P Anyway, from what i can read, the wording of Improved Natural Attack, the Fanged Ring and the Gauntlets/Battle Fists all say one size larger, not one size larger than normal... so... stack it up baby! :D
Dalthbar 06-15-07, 01:28 PM	What is your race and what is the LA of it? I take it that you are not taking the LA into account into the level 11 cap your DM gave or your DM simply isn't familiar with how LA works.
Fallenangel359 06-15-07, 02:24 PM	Lol you think thats crazy? Try 6 monk, 5 rogue Get superior unarmed strike, monks belt, and monks tattoo effective unarmed strike of level 20 add improved natural attack, and battlefists, along with being effected by an enlarge construct spell/infusion up 3 size catagories from 2d10 puts you where? Thats 6d8, and with sneak attack (acrobatic backstab, with snapkick feat, getting 2 hits), thats 12d8+6d6+2x str mod plus that character can enhance the battlefists
Majick 06-17-07, 12:23 PM	what does a monks tattoo do and where is it from?
mvincent 06-18-07, 04:38 PM	Large sized monk monks belt, superior unarmed strike = +9 to monk level to determine strikes improved natural attack, warforged battle gauntlet/glove things, some ring i have read about that costs 10K = + 3 size enhancements to unarmed damageNice synergy here. Yes, 20d8 is a bit much at that level, and you will outshine your other party members (unless they too are extremely well optimized). But then, you likely knew that (and were just here to brag... not that there is anything wrong with that since you provided some excellent tips). Still, at this level many fighter types may be doing similar amounts of damage via a full attack.
savant_warlord13 06-18-07, 07:57 PM	Has anyone checked to make sure all of those feats and items will stack?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-18-07, 08:07 PM	Hold on. Damage as a 20th level monk is 2d10. Large monk is 4d8. Increasing it by three size categories is... 6d8 8d8 12d8 In short, you do not end up with 20d8+double Strength bonus. You would end up with 24d8+double Strength bonus, and would miss most of your attacks. Plus, taking a full-round action to attack as a monk is suicide.
savant_warlord13 06-18-07, 08:12 PM	Hold on. Damage as a 20th level monk is 2d10. Large monk is 4d8. Increasing it by three size categories is... 6d8 8d8 12d8 In short, you do not end up with 20d8+double Strength bonus. You would end up with 24d8+double Strength bonus, and would miss most of your attacks. Plus, taking a full-round action to attack as a monk is suicide. Since when?
tui 06-18-07, 09:53 PM	I think 20d8 is quite powerful for that level. Not to say no one else can build something better... but that wasn't the question. If you're not playing with other power gamers, you're likely to be overpowered. That said, I'd like to look through your build.. I'm not particularly familiar with many of the things you used, so I had to look them up. Large sized monk Nothing wrong with that... From this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12758043) it looks like you're playing with a custom +2 LA large warforged. (It's hard to say if 20d8 is too much without knowing what we're comparing it against.) monks belt, superior unarmed strike = +9 to monk level to determine strikes It certainly isn't clear to me that these stack. I read through this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=859997&page=2) that you posted in (as well as several others), and I was swayed more by the arguments saying they don't stack. Monk's Belt says: "The wearer�s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher." Superior Unarmed Strike says: "If you are a monk, you instead deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher." I interpret those as both saying that they treat your monk level as X levels higher than they actually are.. which means they wouldn't stack. improved natural attack INA says "The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature's size had increased by one step". That sounds pretty stack-able. warforged battle gauntlet/glove things Battlefists say "A warforged monk who uses a battlefist deals increased unarmed damage as though the character were one size larger than actual." "Larger than actual" sounds like it goes off your base size, and thus probably not stack-able. some ring i have read about that costs 10K = + 3 size enhancements to unarmed damage The Fanged Ring in Dragon #308 is 3.0. There's a new Fanged Ring in Dragon Magic. Because they have the same name, and essentially the same effect, you should use the new version.... which just gives IUS and INA, and does Con damage on a critical. So that wouldn't help this character. PHB2 Variant monk attack: One attack that does double damage as a full round action instead of flurry Decisive Strike (PHBII, pg 51) works just like you say and is a nice variation. So I'm not sure what that ends up with... but it looks like it would take some VERY generous rule interpretations to get them all to work together. Be sure to run this by your DM in detail before trying to use it.
NobodyRemembersThis 06-19-07, 12:17 AM	FYI.In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies.So, as TUI said, I am pretty sure not all of your chosen abilities stack.
tui 06-19-07, 10:38 AM	So by my figuring, Monk's Belt and SUS don't stack, so you'd use the +5 levels from Monk's Belt, and so you'd do damage as a 16th level Monk (2d8 for Medium). Your base size is Large, so damage increases to 3d8. INA increases your stackable size to Huge, so damage becomes 4d8. The Battlefist goes on top of that for 6d8. So if you were to use the variant Monk that does double damage with a full attack, you'd do 12d8 + whatever. That's still not too shabby.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-21-07, 06:24 PM	Since when? Since monks had MAD, a d8 Hit Die, and an AC that quite frankly isn't that good. They go down fast.
Toki_Wartooth 06-21-07, 06:36 PM	Since monks had MAD, a d8 Hit Die, and an AC that quite frankly isn't that good. They go down fast.I've never seen a monk that didn't try to get close and flurry as quickly (and as often) as possible, and all my long running campaigns have always had monks (much more than any other class).