Post/Author/DateTime	Post
seaweed_smokeweed 11-18-04, 12:34 AM	An interesting question came up with some of my friends, what is the effect of a coup de grace with a nonlethal weapon (in our case a monk's unarmed strike designated for nonlethal). But in general, can you use a sap or whip to deliver a cdg. And if so, what is the effect of the failed Fortitude save? Thanks
Fixxxer 11-18-04, 12:56 AM	I'm fairly certain that you can't use a non-lethal weapon to deliver a CdG, but off the top of my head, I can't point you to where the rules state this.
Uber Goblin 11-18-04, 01:17 AM	I don't know if this was a house rule or not, but my DM used to state that if you did Massive damage from non-lethal it just knocked the person unconcious. Same with the cdg, if you came up to a helpless person ( from a spell ) you could knock em out before the spells duration quite.
Alchahest 11-18-04, 01:54 AM	an unarmed CdG could be crushing a windpipe, or forcing your thumbs into the eyesockets and through the back of the orbits into the brain. or something equally painful and gross sounding. Heck, you could snap someone's neck with a punch.
Purkake 11-18-04, 03:21 AM	Well, you can do lethal damage at -4 to attack and that doesn't matter fro CDG so go ahead and CDG them to death.
Lord_Anthrax 11-18-04, 03:27 AM	I've always house-ruled that a CDG from a nonlethal source is an automatic knockout(drop to -10 HP in subdual damage). With that said, a lethal unarmed CDG can be many things, though the good old neck snap is always popular.
Shadowfax7 11-18-04, 11:29 AM	From the 3.5 SRD: Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace). You can't deliver a Coup De Grace with an unarmed attack. However, it seems the rules allow a Coup De Grace to be delivered with a melee weapon causing non-lethal damage. Thus IMO a house-rule would be needed.
Zherog 11-18-04, 12:05 PM	From the 3.5 SRD: Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace). You can't deliver a Coup De Grace with an unarmed attack. However, it seems the rules allow a Coup De Grace to be delivered with a melee weapon causing non-lethal damage. Thus IMO a house-rule would be needed. Why not? An unarmed attack is a light, simple weapon according to the table in the PHB. Take the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and you can even threaten with "it."
Shadowfax7 11-18-04, 12:19 PM	I stand corrected as far as the weapon goes.
Zherog 11-18-04, 01:46 PM	Of course, that doesn't answer what happens when you attempt a CdG with nonlethal damage. ;)
Bartleby_GoC 11-18-04, 02:13 PM	As a houserule, CdG with non-leathal is a knockout. However, I do require a hit roll vs flatfooted AC. I more experienced sapper knows better where to smack a guy to take him down quickly and quietly. Plate armor (full and half) worn with a helm are proof against this. It's definitly a houserule, but it seems to work for me. Bartleby
Egres 11-18-04, 03:52 PM	An interesting question came up with some of my friends, what is the effect of a coup de grace with a nonlethal weapon (in our case a monk's unarmed strike designated for nonlethal). But in general, can you use a sap or whip to deliver a cdg. And if so, what is the effect of the failed Fortitude save? Thanks From the Main 3.5 FAQ: What happens if you attempt a coup de grace with a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, such as a sap or a weapon with the merciful property? Is the coup de grace still automatically a critical hit? Is the target required to make a Fortitude save? If so, what’s the DC, and what happens if the target fails? What happens if you use a normally lethal weapon to deal nonlethal damage as a coup de grace? This question takes us beyond the rules. You could rule that you cannot deliver a coup de gace with nonlethal damage, but if you want rules for using nonlethal damage in such an attack, try these: When you attempt a coup de grace with a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, you automatically hit and inflict a critical hit. Note that you cannot deliver a coup de grace to a creature that is immune to critical hits. Calculate the nonlethal damage from the resulting critical hit just as you would normally. If the nonlethal damage isn’t sufficient to render the subject unconscious (see page 153 in the Player’s Handbook), the subject should make a Fortitude save (DC of 10 + the nonlethal damage dealt). If the save fails, the subject is rendered unconscious. The subject immediately suffers enough nonlethal damage to make his current nonlethal damage total equal to his current hit points +10. For example, you perform a nonlethal coup de grace on a helpless gnoll that currently has 12 hit points. You hit the gnoll and deal 10 points of nonlethal damage, not enough to knock out the gnoll. The gnoll, however, must make a DC 20 Fortitude save. If the gnoll fails the save, its nonlethal damage total immediately rises to 22 (current hit points +10), and it falls unconscious. This is roughly the equivalent of being killed when you fail your saving throw against a lethal coup de grace, since death occurs at –10 hit points.
The Commoner 11-18-04, 04:04 PM	I've always house-ruled that a CDG from a nonlethal source is an automatic knockout(drop to -10 HP in subdual damage). With that said, a lethal unarmed CDG can be many things, though the good old neck snap is always popular. Non-lethal damage accumulates... Dealing Nonlethal Damage: Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not “real” damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. It doesn’t matter whether the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points because the nonlethal damage has gone up or because your current hit points have gone down. So in this case your automatic knockout would be non-leathal damage equal to the creature's current hit points +10 points. I understood what you meant though.
Starmage21 11-18-04, 04:33 PM	I have to argue against the full-plate armor and Helmet are proof against being sapped to KO status. Even with a helmet, a mace is an excellent way to KO a knight so that he can be taken hostage, a sap would have a similar effect.
Ipsissimus 11-18-04, 06:57 PM	A monk due to the nature of her unarmed attacks can CDG with unarmed strike...they are considered manufactured/natural weapons and they even progress in damage. To say a monk cannot is completely against the nature of martial arts and doesn't make any sense. A player with IUS could do the same since now they can deal subdual or lethal damage just 1d3 (no monk) doesn't seem to be very effective. A player can always use an improved weapon to deliver a CDG, a rock, branch, torch, his helmet, there would just be a small damage die and probably wouldn't deal much damamge at all. (this is why it's always handy to carry an axe with you or a miner's pick the multipler is nice). So I say, Monks can CDG with unarmed attacks along with anyone else who takes IUS. (foot stop the neck...bruce lee did it quite a few times in his movies) Also helmets are not like helmets build nowadays where they are insulted to take a hit. The ones back in the day just helped deflect on coming attacks, maybe lucky enough to save your ears and eyes from charging into the fray. You sap someone, that's going to ring and I see no reason why they wouldn't get KO'd from it. Where as the garotte and certain types of armor I can see why there would be some resistance.
Zherog 11-18-04, 09:09 PM	Yes, of course a monk can deliver a CdG with an unarmed strike. That wasn't the question.
Ipsissimus 11-19-04, 02:42 AM	ah yes...I don't see why a monk couldn't get the CDG bonus to his attack if he decided to do it subdual. I've done it a few times in game and we have a real stickler of a rules lawyer and a pretty open minded but very aware DM. Never once was I called on it, since it just seemed fine for a monk do to it so he could KO' someone or at least keep them down.
seaweed_smokeweed 11-19-04, 11:33 AM	Thanks for all the help, this has helped me figure out what I'm going to do.
Bartleby_GoC 11-19-04, 12:23 PM	Ok, I wasn't clear enough. A sturdy helm (ie, not leather or chain) is not proof against damage. It's proof against subdual damage. You are effectively pulling your punch to avoid doing lasting damage. Helms weren't padded because a hooded gambeson was usually worn underneith the armor. You aren't supposed to wear chain coifs without padding either. Bartleby