Darkvision & mirrors [Archive] - Wizards Community

Darkvision & mirrors [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sargent
03-27-06, 09:36 AM Background:
Party of us (2 dwarfs, drow & a kua-toa) in a cave system in Underdark.
Have a shaft going up 50 feet. Druid had a fire elemental left over from last battle so sent it up to see how far the shaft went. Side tunnel at top of shaft - some pseudopod of tentacle reaches out and smacks the fire elemental. We have been fighting slime types including a black pudding so we figure similar. I plan to earth walk (psionic spider climb) up there and peak.

Question:
DM thinks mirrors need light to work. They only reflect light waves. I say darkvision is a long wave length light wave and mirror should still reflect. We never got into the mechanics before. What say you?
Mirror will show my darkvision what is around the corner or do I need to grab some glowing fungus, moss, or some other light source?
Wharin
03-27-06, 09:41 AM According to the most recent Sage Advice article in Dragon, and apparantly on a different message board, answered by S K Renolds, Dwarves (or any race with Darkvision) can both read AND look in mirrors as long as the total distance is within their range less (so a mirror more than 30 ft away won't work for typical dwarves)
tarkin
03-27-06, 10:28 AM Wharin, I assume you mean specifically that dwarves without a light source can read and use mirror.

If the article does not mention no light source, then it is stimply stating that dwarves can use light or darkvision at will.

Also, if possible, please provide me with a specific article/issue. I find it very dificult to beleive that Paizo/WoTC would give such patently stupid answers, considering the definition of Darkvision. Darkvision specifically states it does not use light. If it did use light, then it would need a light source.

Mirrors have special properties with regards to light and ONLY light. They don't reflect sound, heat, microwaves, etc. any more or better than other objects do.

Similarly, ink has special properties with regards to light and only light. Using sonar, infrared googles, etc. you can not read normal ink on normal paper.
pres_man
03-27-06, 11:10 AM Mirrors have special properties with regards to light and ONLY light. They don't reflect sound, heat, microwaves, etc. any more or better than other objects do.
This is actually not correct. Microwaves are reflected by metal, the reflecting part of a mirror is the metal backing. Thus a mirror would in fact reflect microwaves. Now would a mirror work better at reflecting microwaves than other metal objects, maybe not, but a mirror is definitely better than say a wall of sheet rock.
Wharin
03-27-06, 11:12 AM Alright well if "most recent" is too difficult for anyone, try Dragon issue 342, page 80 called "Official Answers to your Questions" under the tab "Sage Advice".

Now, this particular column didn't give a deep explanation using real world phsyics, but it does say, in black and white, that "a character [with darkvision] can see anything that that a normal person could see with light.

If you need an actual reason, which the sage suggests not thinking too hard about as this is fantasy, there can be any reason under the rainbow for allowing this. On that message board (there was a link to that thread somewhere on these boards, not too long ago), someone suggested that maybe there is some sort of invisible light spectrum that all things, living and not, naturally radiate, but has a high deterioration rate, thus the limited range of vision. I personally like that. After all, Eyes are meant to pick up light, not sonar or any of that other jazz. Our human eyes only pick up the "visible light" spectrum, but that doesnt mean there can't some other "arcane light spectrum" that we simply can't pick up.

Now "stupid" or not, you can choose to accept it, or you can houserule it away, but as answered officially by Andy Collins and SKReynolds, it works. If you believe that its too "Anything Goes", "Power" or "Loose", that's your perogative, but officially, thats how it works. Personally, its a fantasy game. Heaven forbid if a bit of magic interferes with physics.

[Edit: That link was found. Thanks "AnotherGnome" :Lookie here (http://seankreynolds.com/boardskr/viewtopic.php?t=606) ]
Wharin
03-27-06, 11:53 PM Also, for what its worth, the way its answered by the Sage is probably the most balanced way. After all, as per KReynolds, if Darkvision didnt work on some pseudo magic non-light spectrum, then yeah, they couldnt read books or see in mirrors BUT they could see invisible objects and other obfuscating tactics (after all, if they arent seeing "light" an invisible creature is just as suseptable to detection). To me that sounds much better.
mvincent
03-28-06, 05:15 PM I find it very dificult to beleive that Paizo/WoTC would give such patently stupid answers, considering the definition of Darkvision.Check out this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8766321) for a lengthy (and conclusive) discussion.

Also from, Dragon 342, page 80 (will likely be added to the next FAQ):
"Can he see his reflection in a mirror?
The simplest answer to the mirror question is yes. To avoid delving too deeply into real-world physics--something it's best to resist, particularly in fantasy gaming--it's easiest to treat darkvision as allowing a character to perceive anything that a normal person could see with light."
fatal error
03-29-06, 12:34 AM Hmmm, I always thought Darkvision was supposed to be infra-vision. As described in many novels featuring dual scimitar wielding drow. If I recall correctly the Drow even had a special ink that would show up in their vision.
mvincent
03-29-06, 11:49 AM Hmmm, I always thought Darkvision was supposed to be infra-vision.It was in AD&D. That has changed now.
tarkin
03-29-06, 01:08 PM The not thinking too hard about is the stupid part. In fact, that is about as close to a definition of stupid as Ihave seen.

Look, we are playing a game with rules. The rules should be consistent and logical.

Would you accept someone saying:

"I want the benefits of being tall but not the disadvantages."

No of course not. If you want the height to reach up and grab things, then of COURSE you should have a tough problem going into small places. If you want the height and still be able to squeeze into the smallest space, then at the very least in the core rules it should be explained, not 'assumed' and reported in a Sage Advice article.

Ruling that you should ignore logic and instead "not think about it?, please. I play this game because I LIKE TO THINK. It is a thinking man's game. No pretty moving pictures, just paper, pencil, dice, and some friends. OK, so there is a lot of pizza involved as well.

If you want to play in a game that has less thinking, I can introduce you to tic tac toe. Or at least log you on to a MMOG.

P.S. Please note I did not rule it Strict/Loose/Power/anything Goes. This is not a balance issue, both ways are equally fine for balance. Instead it is a thinking vs. non-thinking. I find the fact that the Sage went with the "NO THINKING" argument to be shamefull.
mvincent
03-29-06, 01:46 PM The not thinking too hard about is the stupid part. In fact, that is about as close to a definition of stupid as Ihave seen.
<snip>
I find the fact that the Sage went with the "NO THINKING" argument to be shamefull.From the other thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=605399) it seemed like quite a few people (if not a majority) with good track records in logic agreed with his ruling. Based on my experience with your approach to other debates, your own condemnation does not cause me to repudiate the Sage's wisdom.
Yaeri
03-29-06, 01:51 PM I actually think the sage went with the "what's the spirit of the ability" argument. The spirit of darkvision is to be able to see in darkness, in black and white.
The ruling of the sage seems hihgly in line with the flavour/the purpose of darkvision.
Wharin
03-29-06, 06:35 PM Well, like it was said before, think of it like this. If darkvision didnt work the same way normal vision would work, on some unvisible light spectrum (just in the dark), how would you explain them not being able to see invisible creatures, through mist, or phantasms? Now maybe its a backwards way of engineering an ability, but I like it.

Now yes, the designers do not have degrees in physics, but I refuse to hold that against them. Seeing how posters are so quick to call people stupid at the slightest misinformed statement, I can't blame them for not even trying, and instead just going with a "its magic" or "thats how it works in a fantasy game".

And if you need a reason for it working the way it does, mvincent's link does put some really decent insight on the matter, as well as my link as per AnotherGnome. And if none of those explanations float your boat, I am sure you can make up some good "thinking" arguement.
yourReality
03-29-06, 06:36 PM darkvision is black and white, and if were thinking that a creature can see without light, why cant a mirror reflect without light? same rules apply.

and besides, were only saying a mirror needs light because it reflects the darkness and since we cant see it, we figure nothings there.

so i'd go with, darkvision works with mirrors. :fight!:
mvincent
03-29-06, 07:25 PM were only saying a mirror needs light because it reflects the darkness and since we cant see it, we figure nothings there.It's kinda like the light in my refrigerator.

Seriously though, I believe we only perceive anything because it gives off or reflects some sort of emission.

We don't know of everything that mirrors can reflect, but I reckon they can reflect some things in spectrums we can't perceive (i.e. things we don't call 'light', possibly in a range below 4,000 angstroms or above 7,700).

According to some legends, they can even reflect souls (which I think explained the aversion of vampires to them).

(btw: while in the military, I seem to remember using a mirror to apply my cammo paint while having night vision goggles on. Any other grunts remember that?)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sargent 03-27-06, 09:36 AM	Background: Party of us (2 dwarfs, drow & a kua-toa) in a cave system in Underdark. Have a shaft going up 50 feet. Druid had a fire elemental left over from last battle so sent it up to see how far the shaft went. Side tunnel at top of shaft - some pseudopod of tentacle reaches out and smacks the fire elemental. We have been fighting slime types including a black pudding so we figure similar. I plan to earth walk (psionic spider climb) up there and peak. Question: DM thinks mirrors need light to work. They only reflect light waves. I say darkvision is a long wave length light wave and mirror should still reflect. We never got into the mechanics before. What say you? Mirror will show my darkvision what is around the corner or do I need to grab some glowing fungus, moss, or some other light source?
Wharin 03-27-06, 09:41 AM	According to the most recent Sage Advice article in Dragon, and apparantly on a different message board, answered by S K Renolds, Dwarves (or any race with Darkvision) can both read AND look in mirrors as long as the total distance is within their range less (so a mirror more than 30 ft away won't work for typical dwarves)
tarkin 03-27-06, 10:28 AM	Wharin, I assume you mean specifically that dwarves without a light source can read and use mirror. If the article does not mention no light source, then it is stimply stating that dwarves can use light or darkvision at will. Also, if possible, please provide me with a specific article/issue. I find it very dificult to beleive that Paizo/WoTC would give such patently stupid answers, considering the definition of Darkvision. Darkvision specifically states it does not use light. If it did use light, then it would need a light source. Mirrors have special properties with regards to light and ONLY light. They don't reflect sound, heat, microwaves, etc. any more or better than other objects do. Similarly, ink has special properties with regards to light and only light. Using sonar, infrared googles, etc. you can not read normal ink on normal paper.
pres_man 03-27-06, 11:10 AM	Mirrors have special properties with regards to light and ONLY light. They don't reflect sound, heat, microwaves, etc. any more or better than other objects do. This is actually not correct. Microwaves are reflected by metal, the reflecting part of a mirror is the metal backing. Thus a mirror would in fact reflect microwaves. Now would a mirror work better at reflecting microwaves than other metal objects, maybe not, but a mirror is definitely better than say a wall of sheet rock.
Wharin 03-27-06, 11:12 AM	Alright well if "most recent" is too difficult for anyone, try Dragon issue 342, page 80 called "Official Answers to your Questions" under the tab "Sage Advice". Now, this particular column didn't give a deep explanation using real world phsyics, but it does say, in black and white, that "a character [with darkvision] can see anything that that a normal person could see with light. If you need an actual reason, which the sage suggests not thinking too hard about as this is fantasy, there can be any reason under the rainbow for allowing this. On that message board (there was a link to that thread somewhere on these boards, not too long ago), someone suggested that maybe there is some sort of invisible light spectrum that all things, living and not, naturally radiate, but has a high deterioration rate, thus the limited range of vision. I personally like that. After all, Eyes are meant to pick up light, not sonar or any of that other jazz. Our human eyes only pick up the "visible light" spectrum, but that doesnt mean there can't some other "arcane light spectrum" that we simply can't pick up. Now "stupid" or not, you can choose to accept it, or you can houserule it away, but as answered officially by Andy Collins and SKReynolds, it works. If you believe that its too "Anything Goes", "Power" or "Loose", that's your perogative, but officially, thats how it works. Personally, its a fantasy game. Heaven forbid if a bit of magic interferes with physics. [Edit: That link was found. Thanks "AnotherGnome" :Lookie here (http://seankreynolds.com/boardskr/viewtopic.php?t=606) ]
Wharin 03-27-06, 11:53 PM	Also, for what its worth, the way its answered by the Sage is probably the most balanced way. After all, as per KReynolds, if Darkvision didnt work on some pseudo magic non-light spectrum, then yeah, they couldnt read books or see in mirrors BUT they could see invisible objects and other obfuscating tactics (after all, if they arent seeing "light" an invisible creature is just as suseptable to detection). To me that sounds much better.
mvincent 03-28-06, 05:15 PM	I find it very dificult to beleive that Paizo/WoTC would give such patently stupid answers, considering the definition of Darkvision.Check out this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8766321) for a lengthy (and conclusive) discussion. Also from, Dragon 342, page 80 (will likely be added to the next FAQ): "Can he see his reflection in a mirror? The simplest answer to the mirror question is yes. To avoid delving too deeply into real-world physics--something it's best to resist, particularly in fantasy gaming--it's easiest to treat darkvision as allowing a character to perceive anything that a normal person could see with light."
fatal error 03-29-06, 12:34 AM	Hmmm, I always thought Darkvision was supposed to be infra-vision. As described in many novels featuring dual scimitar wielding drow. If I recall correctly the Drow even had a special ink that would show up in their vision.
mvincent 03-29-06, 11:49 AM	Hmmm, I always thought Darkvision was supposed to be infra-vision.It was in AD&D. That has changed now.
tarkin 03-29-06, 01:08 PM	The not thinking too hard about is the stupid part. In fact, that is about as close to a definition of stupid as Ihave seen. Look, we are playing a game with rules. The rules should be consistent and logical. Would you accept someone saying: "I want the benefits of being tall but not the disadvantages." No of course not. If you want the height to reach up and grab things, then of COURSE you should have a tough problem going into small places. If you want the height and still be able to squeeze into the smallest space, then at the very least in the core rules it should be explained, not 'assumed' and reported in a Sage Advice article. Ruling that you should ignore logic and instead "not think about it?, please. I play this game because I LIKE TO THINK. It is a thinking man's game. No pretty moving pictures, just paper, pencil, dice, and some friends. OK, so there is a lot of pizza involved as well. If you want to play in a game that has less thinking, I can introduce you to tic tac toe. Or at least log you on to a MMOG. P.S. Please note I did not rule it Strict/Loose/Power/anything Goes. This is not a balance issue, both ways are equally fine for balance. Instead it is a thinking vs. non-thinking. I find the fact that the Sage went with the "NO THINKING" argument to be shamefull.
mvincent 03-29-06, 01:46 PM	The not thinking too hard about is the stupid part. In fact, that is about as close to a definition of stupid as Ihave seen. <snip> I find the fact that the Sage went with the "NO THINKING" argument to be shamefull.From the other thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=605399) it seemed like quite a few people (if not a majority) with good track records in logic agreed with his ruling. Based on my experience with your approach to other debates, your own condemnation does not cause me to repudiate the Sage's wisdom.
Yaeri 03-29-06, 01:51 PM	I actually think the sage went with the "what's the spirit of the ability" argument. The spirit of darkvision is to be able to see in darkness, in black and white. The ruling of the sage seems hihgly in line with the flavour/the purpose of darkvision.
Wharin 03-29-06, 06:35 PM	Well, like it was said before, think of it like this. If darkvision didnt work the same way normal vision would work, on some unvisible light spectrum (just in the dark), how would you explain them not being able to see invisible creatures, through mist, or phantasms? Now maybe its a backwards way of engineering an ability, but I like it. Now yes, the designers do not have degrees in physics, but I refuse to hold that against them. Seeing how posters are so quick to call people stupid at the slightest misinformed statement, I can't blame them for not even trying, and instead just going with a "its magic" or "thats how it works in a fantasy game". And if you need a reason for it working the way it does, mvincent's link does put some really decent insight on the matter, as well as my link as per AnotherGnome. And if none of those explanations float your boat, I am sure you can make up some good "thinking" arguement.
yourReality 03-29-06, 06:36 PM	darkvision is black and white, and if were thinking that a creature can see without light, why cant a mirror reflect without light? same rules apply. and besides, were only saying a mirror needs light because it reflects the darkness and since we cant see it, we figure nothings there. so i'd go with, darkvision works with mirrors. :fight!:
mvincent 03-29-06, 07:25 PM	were only saying a mirror needs light because it reflects the darkness and since we cant see it, we figure nothings there.It's kinda like the light in my refrigerator. Seriously though, I believe we only perceive anything because it gives off or reflects some sort of emission. We don't know of everything that mirrors can reflect, but I reckon they can reflect some things in spectrums we can't perceive (i.e. things we don't call 'light', possibly in a range below 4,000 angstroms or above 7,700). According to some legends, they can even reflect souls (which I think explained the aversion of vampires to them). (btw: while in the military, I seem to remember using a mirror to apply my cammo paint while having night vision goggles on. Any other grunts remember that?)