Darkwood and Cold Iron greatclub? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Darkwood and Cold Iron greatclub? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Avanter
05-28-07, 07:28 AM Could you make a greatclub that is both cold iron AND darkwood? Im thinking more of a Tetsubo here, where the iron shods at the end (or nubbins if you will...) are cold iron, but the club is entirely darkwood. It seems reasonable to me, I just wanted to get some opinions.

8 pounds.. 5 gp

How would you figure the price?

A cold iron greatclub would cost only 16gp?
A darkwood greatclub would be 388?
A masterwork cold iron greatclub would cost 316?
A masterwork darkwood cold iron greatclub would cost 404?
risner
05-28-07, 10:00 AM 1) Could you make a greatclub that is both cold iron AND darkwood?

8 pounds.. 5 gp

2) How would you figure the price?

A cold iron greatclub would cost only 16gp?
A darkwood greatclub would be 388?
A masterwork cold iron greatclub would cost 316?
A masterwork darkwood cold iron greatclub would cost 404?

1) No, not by RAW.

2) Since you can't make one, this would be a DM question.

I would not allow such a thing, because I would ask you "why?" If you want a cold iron club, make one.

I assume you want a cold iron great club that is as light as possible? If so, I would rule make it out of cold iron with some mithril. Stat it up as a cold iron weapon (cut thru cold iron DR) and price it as a Mithril weapon (8lb * 500 gp = 4,000 gp + 8 gp to make) and weight it as a Mithril (4 lbs.)
Watchman
05-28-07, 10:20 AM I don't care what the RAW says, that's nonsensical. The greatclub is a big piece of wood with some metal bits so it's more "hitty". If you have the materials, making the former out of Darkwood and the latter out of Cold Iron should be simplicity itself.

IMO just treat it as a Darkwood Greatclub with an arbitrary extra price hike from the Cold Iron bits. Darkwood doesn't really have any effect outside halving the weight anyway, so the point is very much moot.

And if you made a club out of Mithril and Cold Iron, it'd be called a mace...
jaelis
05-28-07, 12:54 PM Assuming that your DM rules that greatclubs can have metallic striking parts, you can do it. The price would be:
greatclub: 5 gp
cold iron: 10 gp
mwk (needed for darkwood): 310 gp
darkwood: +10 gp/lb = +80 gp

So your total would be 390 gp.
Avanter
05-28-07, 06:26 PM Assuming that your DM rules that greatclubs can have metallic striking parts, you can do it. The price would be:
greatclub: 5 gp
cold iron: 10 gp
mwk (needed for darkwood): 310 gp
darkwood: +10 gp/lb = +80 gp

So your total would be 390 gp.

the masterwork greatclub would cost 308..so the total would be 388?

Also, why minthril? That only gets through DR of minthril golems, which are epic... cold iron beats devils and fae...

thanx for all the replies.
jaelis
05-28-07, 10:29 PM the masterwork greatclub would cost 308..
Not that it matters, but where do you get 308? A regular greatclub is 5 gp, cold iron doubles that to 10 gp, and the masterwork component is 300?
Avanter
05-29-07, 12:00 AM Not that it matters, but where do you get 308? A regular greatclub is 5 gp, cold iron doubles that to 10 gp, and the masterwork component is 300?

Its 8 pounds... I was looking at the wrong thing.
starfire311
05-29-07, 10:38 AM Assuming that your DM rules that greatclubs can have metallic striking parts, you can do it. The price would be:
greatclub: 5 gp
cold iron: 10 gp
mwk (needed for darkwood): 310 gp
darkwood: +10 gp/lb = +80 gp

So your total would be 390 gp.

I endorse this math, seems like good/fair item pricing, true it may not be 100% RAW, but it is a great interpretation.
Kn1ves
05-29-07, 11:15 AM I've never seen a problem with putting metal bands or studs on a greatclub. The picture in the PHB even shows it with a big spiky piece of metal attached to it which means, I think, that a player should be able to make it do piercing damage as well. In fact being able to add metal bits and/or spiky bits to help overcome damage reduction would go a long way toward making it worth being in the martial weapon category. 390gp seems perfect for what you want to make.
tarkin
05-29-07, 01:55 PM The problem is that spikes only do 1d6 (armor/heavy shield)

The reason the greatclub does 1d10 is either:

A. the weight

or

B. hitting the wood club itself, not just the spikes.

--------

So logically making it of darkwood should LOWER the damage (the whole point of darkwood is that it reduces the weight, DUH), and it also means that not all damage overcomes the DR from the metal.

No way would I consider this idea to be reaosnable.

It seems a rather silly idea.

Kind of like replacing the catapult ammo with a giant pillow, so it won't weigh so much when you carry them around.
jaelis
05-29-07, 02:03 PM Tarkin, does that mean you would also disallow a darkwood club or quarterstaff? Because those are clearly allowed by the rules. As is a darkwood spear with a cold iron tip. What is so different here?

Also, don't forget that a lighter weapon can be swung faster, as previous discussions have noted. Heavier does not always equal more damage. Mithral swords don't suffer any disadvantage, after all.
mvincent
05-29-07, 02:15 PM 1) No, not by RAW.Interestingly, it appears it can be done by RAW.

The rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm) say that "Any wooden or mostly wooden item (such as a bow, an arrow, or a spear)" can be made from darkwood, and that "Items without metal parts cannot be made from cold iron. An arrow could be made of cold iron... "

So an arrow can clearly be both cold iron and darkwood at the same time. A spear or greatclub could be also.
RobbyPants
05-29-07, 02:51 PM Out of curiosity, why would you want to halve the weight of a great club?
tarkin
05-29-07, 02:56 PM 1. I do allow a wooden weapon to be made of darkwood.

That is legal. The problem is the metals. I was explaining why his "logical idea" was not logical. The club itself is a club weapon with spikes for added damage. Thus enhancing the spikes is NOT enough. He was thinking it was a spike weapon with the club part not existing, which was false.

2. You can use the metal rules on ammo. There is nothing preventing that. Even techincally for adamantine.

3. You can NOT however take a mostly wooden weapon that has a few bits of metal on it and gain the benefits of the metal. Arrows are not weapons, they are ammo. The exceptions for them do not apply. Adamantine and Mithral are clear, the item must be mostly made from the metal.

The Cold Iron and the Silvered are less clear. Both are worded so that a foolish DM can imply that having ANY metal part could let them count as being fully of the item for DR purposes.

I.E. I have hear a fine club. The handle has been encased in a nice alchemical silver finish, for beauty.

Strict DM: No DR for you.. The item must be entirely made of the metal.

Loose DM: No DR for you. The entire effective weapon head must be made of metal. Weapon head is the part of the weapoin that provides the damage.

Piercing = spikey things.
Slashing = edged things
Bludgeoning = the REST of the weapon head.

If it says blundgeoning AND Piercing then making the spikes silver is NOT enough. You also need toi make the blunt part silver, to defeat any DR.

If it says Blundgoning OR Piercing, then if you make the spikes silvery when doing a Piercing only damage you get the silver DR penetration. If doing Blunt damage, no DR penetration.

Any Spiked Club type thing would be B & P, not B or P (Tigerskull Club, Morningstar, Maquahuitl,Executioner's Mace for example.)

The only B or P weapons I know of are the Goad and the Lucerne Hammer, neither of which come close to a "Spiked Club".

Power DM: You have to make the spikes silver, but who cares about and vs. or.

Anything Goes: Yes, even making the handle silver is enough.
jaelis
05-29-07, 03:19 PM I understand your point now. I'd say it just up to the DM. As you say, the fact that it does bludgeoning damage would seem to make the spikes irrelevant. But on the other hand, the weapon description does specifically talk about metal spikes or bands. I could see going either way.
Kn1ves
05-29-07, 03:21 PM He was thinking it was a spike weapon with the club part not existing, which was false.

I was actually thinking more along the lines of bludgeoning and piercing damage. Take a look at the picture of a greatclub in the PHB, it's a large club with a spiked plate nailed to it. Now say you hit someone in the arm with that same club. The spikes may pierce the arm and the residual blunt force would snap the bone or at least bruise the muscle.

If adding another type of damage is too much for some DMs then letting a player add metal studs, bands or plates along the length of the greatclub is no far stretch of the imagination. I'd say the same for a standard club or quarterstaff. Making those metal bits out of various types of special materials should then allow the player to bypass various damage reductions.

Saying that making a greatclub lighter would reduce the damage is in no way realistic. Professional hitters in baseball will warm up by using a weighted bat before they step up tp the plate so that they can swing the lighter bat faster to get a stronger hit. A lighter greatclub will just mean the person using it can swing it faster and harder, thereby keeping the damage the same.
Watchman
05-29-07, 03:23 PM Your reasoning is very odd, tark. Is there anything in particular keeping the intrepid weaponcrafter from festooning the whole darn business end of the Greatclub in question with Cold Iron bands, studs, spikes and/or whatever else now strikes his fancy ? Hardly. And the main mass of wood they're attached to will still be supplying its weight for the impact - actually, you ought to be able to get by with a bit less wood since the added, heavier metal sorta compensates...

Although discussing the impact effects of the wooden part's weight is sort of curious by itself given that the Darkwood part flatly halves that... you'd really think a fair bit of metal add-ons were necessary just to maintain the impact leverage output when you start thinking about it...
sensestaker
05-29-07, 07:55 PM Why do you want such an expensive greatclub? The cold iron I understand (stupid fey, flittin' around just askin' to get whonked) but why the darkwood? Most char's that wield greatclubs aren't worried about their carrying capacity.
mvincent
05-29-07, 08:11 PM You can NOT however take a mostly wooden weapon that has a few bits of metal on it and gain the benefits of the metal. Arrows are not weapons, they are ammo.Sounds like you are making stuff up. Are you saying that there cannot be silvered or cold iron spearheads or dart tips?
mvincent
05-29-07, 08:18 PM why the darkwood?Maybe he heard they were bigger (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/war_drums_gallery/Hill_Giant_Barbarian.jpg).
AAB
05-30-07, 02:14 AM it sounds like he mostly wants darkwood for flavor or the "coolness" effect, just like even some people with decent strength scores will want to spend tons of money on a mithral sword.

which brings up a side question of mine: when pricing mithral items (weapons, etc. not armor) you use the amount of mithral in the item for pricing, correct? so you'd be paying the mithral price for 1/2 the weapon's base weight. then wouldn't a mithral dagger (also masterwork, with the MW price being subsumed by the mithral cost, as RAW) cost only 250 gp?
jaelis
05-30-07, 08:05 AM That would be dumb, of course. Two possible solutions are 1) the listed price is 500 gp/lb, which can be interpreted as a 1 lb minimum. So even a tiny mithral item would cost 500 gp. 2) charge the normal mwk price for a small item, on the basis that even if the amount of metal is trivial, using mithral can't make something less expensive.

I favor (1) myself, since it keeps mithral rare and special.

(Edit - risner below is right that you base it off the iron cost. The situation you describe does come up though for a Small dagger.)
risner
05-30-07, 10:03 AM 1) you use the amount of mithral in the item for pricing, correct?
2) mithral dagger cost only 250 gp?

1) No, all the precedence (and the text of mithril) seems to be that you use the weight of the iron version. That makes the mithril dagger 1lb = 500 gb/lb = 500 gp.

2) If you were true, it still wouldn't be 250 gp, since masterwork prices are included that makes the minimum price the masterwork price (300 gp.)
mvincent
05-30-07, 12:51 PM you'd be paying the mithral price for 1/2 the weapon's base weight.No. You base the cost on the weapons original weight.

wouldn't a mithral dagger (also masterwork, with the MW price being subsumed by the mithral cost, as RAW) cost only 250 gp?By strict RAW, a small mithral dagger would cost less than a regular masterwork version, but this is just a glitch. Many DM's would still enforce the masterwork cost as the minimum. Although... allowing for mithral to make less expensive, small, masterwork quality daggers is not unrealistic.
AAB
05-30-07, 11:45 PM okay. good to know that you use the iron weight of the weapon.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Avanter 05-28-07, 07:28 AM	Could you make a greatclub that is both cold iron AND darkwood? Im thinking more of a Tetsubo here, where the iron shods at the end (or nubbins if you will...) are cold iron, but the club is entirely darkwood. It seems reasonable to me, I just wanted to get some opinions. 8 pounds.. 5 gp How would you figure the price? A cold iron greatclub would cost only 16gp? A darkwood greatclub would be 388? A masterwork cold iron greatclub would cost 316? A masterwork darkwood cold iron greatclub would cost 404?
risner 05-28-07, 10:00 AM	1) Could you make a greatclub that is both cold iron AND darkwood? 8 pounds.. 5 gp 2) How would you figure the price? A cold iron greatclub would cost only 16gp? A darkwood greatclub would be 388? A masterwork cold iron greatclub would cost 316? A masterwork darkwood cold iron greatclub would cost 404? 1) No, not by RAW. 2) Since you can't make one, this would be a DM question. I would not allow such a thing, because I would ask you "why?" If you want a cold iron club, make one. I assume you want a cold iron great club that is as light as possible? If so, I would rule make it out of cold iron with some mithril. Stat it up as a cold iron weapon (cut thru cold iron DR) and price it as a Mithril weapon (8lb * 500 gp = 4,000 gp + 8 gp to make) and weight it as a Mithril (4 lbs.)
Watchman 05-28-07, 10:20 AM	I don't care what the RAW says, that's nonsensical. The greatclub is a big piece of wood with some metal bits so it's more "hitty". If you have the materials, making the former out of Darkwood and the latter out of Cold Iron should be simplicity itself. IMO just treat it as a Darkwood Greatclub with an arbitrary extra price hike from the Cold Iron bits. Darkwood doesn't really have any effect outside halving the weight anyway, so the point is very much moot. And if you made a club out of Mithril and Cold Iron, it'd be called a mace...
jaelis 05-28-07, 12:54 PM	Assuming that your DM rules that greatclubs can have metallic striking parts, you can do it. The price would be: greatclub: 5 gp cold iron: 10 gp mwk (needed for darkwood): 310 gp darkwood: +10 gp/lb = +80 gp So your total would be 390 gp.
Avanter 05-28-07, 06:26 PM	Assuming that your DM rules that greatclubs can have metallic striking parts, you can do it. The price would be: greatclub: 5 gp cold iron: 10 gp mwk (needed for darkwood): 310 gp darkwood: +10 gp/lb = +80 gp So your total would be 390 gp. the masterwork greatclub would cost 308..so the total would be 388? Also, why minthril? That only gets through DR of minthril golems, which are epic... cold iron beats devils and fae... thanx for all the replies.
jaelis 05-28-07, 10:29 PM	the masterwork greatclub would cost 308.. Not that it matters, but where do you get 308? A regular greatclub is 5 gp, cold iron doubles that to 10 gp, and the masterwork component is 300?
Avanter 05-29-07, 12:00 AM	Not that it matters, but where do you get 308? A regular greatclub is 5 gp, cold iron doubles that to 10 gp, and the masterwork component is 300? Its 8 pounds... I was looking at the wrong thing.
starfire311 05-29-07, 10:38 AM	Assuming that your DM rules that greatclubs can have metallic striking parts, you can do it. The price would be: greatclub: 5 gp cold iron: 10 gp mwk (needed for darkwood): 310 gp darkwood: +10 gp/lb = +80 gp So your total would be 390 gp. I endorse this math, seems like good/fair item pricing, true it may not be 100% RAW, but it is a great interpretation.
Kn1ves 05-29-07, 11:15 AM	I've never seen a problem with putting metal bands or studs on a greatclub. The picture in the PHB even shows it with a big spiky piece of metal attached to it which means, I think, that a player should be able to make it do piercing damage as well. In fact being able to add metal bits and/or spiky bits to help overcome damage reduction would go a long way toward making it worth being in the martial weapon category. 390gp seems perfect for what you want to make.
tarkin 05-29-07, 01:55 PM	The problem is that spikes only do 1d6 (armor/heavy shield) The reason the greatclub does 1d10 is either: A. the weight or B. hitting the wood club itself, not just the spikes. -------- So logically making it of darkwood should LOWER the damage (the whole point of darkwood is that it reduces the weight, DUH), and it also means that not all damage overcomes the DR from the metal. No way would I consider this idea to be reaosnable. It seems a rather silly idea. Kind of like replacing the catapult ammo with a giant pillow, so it won't weigh so much when you carry them around.
jaelis 05-29-07, 02:03 PM	Tarkin, does that mean you would also disallow a darkwood club or quarterstaff? Because those are clearly allowed by the rules. As is a darkwood spear with a cold iron tip. What is so different here? Also, don't forget that a lighter weapon can be swung faster, as previous discussions have noted. Heavier does not always equal more damage. Mithral swords don't suffer any disadvantage, after all.
mvincent 05-29-07, 02:15 PM	1) No, not by RAW.Interestingly, it appears it can be done by RAW. The rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm) say that "Any wooden or mostly wooden item (such as a bow, an arrow, or a spear)" can be made from darkwood, and that "Items without metal parts cannot be made from cold iron. An arrow could be made of cold iron... " So an arrow can clearly be both cold iron and darkwood at the same time. A spear or greatclub could be also.
RobbyPants 05-29-07, 02:51 PM	Out of curiosity, why would you want to halve the weight of a great club?
tarkin 05-29-07, 02:56 PM	1. I do allow a wooden weapon to be made of darkwood. That is legal. The problem is the metals. I was explaining why his "logical idea" was not logical. The club itself is a club weapon with spikes for added damage. Thus enhancing the spikes is NOT enough. He was thinking it was a spike weapon with the club part not existing, which was false. 2. You can use the metal rules on ammo. There is nothing preventing that. Even techincally for adamantine. 3. You can NOT however take a mostly wooden weapon that has a few bits of metal on it and gain the benefits of the metal. Arrows are not weapons, they are ammo. The exceptions for them do not apply. Adamantine and Mithral are clear, the item must be mostly made from the metal. The Cold Iron and the Silvered are less clear. Both are worded so that a foolish DM can imply that having ANY metal part could let them count as being fully of the item for DR purposes. I.E. I have hear a fine club. The handle has been encased in a nice alchemical silver finish, for beauty. Strict DM: No DR for you.. The item must be entirely made of the metal. Loose DM: No DR for you. The entire effective weapon head must be made of metal. Weapon head is the part of the weapoin that provides the damage. Piercing = spikey things. Slashing = edged things Bludgeoning = the REST of the weapon head. If it says blundgeoning AND Piercing then making the spikes silver is NOT enough. You also need toi make the blunt part silver, to defeat any DR. If it says Blundgoning OR Piercing, then if you make the spikes silvery when doing a Piercing only damage you get the silver DR penetration. If doing Blunt damage, no DR penetration. Any Spiked Club type thing would be B & P, not B or P (Tigerskull Club, Morningstar, Maquahuitl,Executioner's Mace for example.) The only B or P weapons I know of are the Goad and the Lucerne Hammer, neither of which come close to a "Spiked Club". Power DM: You have to make the spikes silver, but who cares about and vs. or. Anything Goes: Yes, even making the handle silver is enough.
jaelis 05-29-07, 03:19 PM	I understand your point now. I'd say it just up to the DM. As you say, the fact that it does bludgeoning damage would seem to make the spikes irrelevant. But on the other hand, the weapon description does specifically talk about metal spikes or bands. I could see going either way.
Kn1ves 05-29-07, 03:21 PM	He was thinking it was a spike weapon with the club part not existing, which was false. I was actually thinking more along the lines of bludgeoning and piercing damage. Take a look at the picture of a greatclub in the PHB, it's a large club with a spiked plate nailed to it. Now say you hit someone in the arm with that same club. The spikes may pierce the arm and the residual blunt force would snap the bone or at least bruise the muscle. If adding another type of damage is too much for some DMs then letting a player add metal studs, bands or plates along the length of the greatclub is no far stretch of the imagination. I'd say the same for a standard club or quarterstaff. Making those metal bits out of various types of special materials should then allow the player to bypass various damage reductions. Saying that making a greatclub lighter would reduce the damage is in no way realistic. Professional hitters in baseball will warm up by using a weighted bat before they step up tp the plate so that they can swing the lighter bat faster to get a stronger hit. A lighter greatclub will just mean the person using it can swing it faster and harder, thereby keeping the damage the same.
Watchman 05-29-07, 03:23 PM	Your reasoning is very odd, tark. Is there anything in particular keeping the intrepid weaponcrafter from festooning the whole darn business end of the Greatclub in question with Cold Iron bands, studs, spikes and/or whatever else now strikes his fancy ? Hardly. And the main mass of wood they're attached to will still be supplying its weight for the impact - actually, you ought to be able to get by with a bit less wood since the added, heavier metal sorta compensates... Although discussing the impact effects of the wooden part's weight is sort of curious by itself given that the Darkwood part flatly halves that... you'd really think a fair bit of metal add-ons were necessary just to maintain the impact leverage output when you start thinking about it...
sensestaker 05-29-07, 07:55 PM	Why do you want such an expensive greatclub? The cold iron I understand (stupid fey, flittin' around just askin' to get whonked) but why the darkwood? Most char's that wield greatclubs aren't worried about their carrying capacity.
mvincent 05-29-07, 08:11 PM	You can NOT however take a mostly wooden weapon that has a few bits of metal on it and gain the benefits of the metal. Arrows are not weapons, they are ammo.Sounds like you are making stuff up. Are you saying that there cannot be silvered or cold iron spearheads or dart tips?
mvincent 05-29-07, 08:18 PM	why the darkwood?Maybe he heard they were bigger (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/war_drums_gallery/Hill_Giant_Barbarian.jpg).
AAB 05-30-07, 02:14 AM	it sounds like he mostly wants darkwood for flavor or the "coolness" effect, just like even some people with decent strength scores will want to spend tons of money on a mithral sword. which brings up a side question of mine: when pricing mithral items (weapons, etc. not armor) you use the amount of mithral in the item for pricing, correct? so you'd be paying the mithral price for 1/2 the weapon's base weight. then wouldn't a mithral dagger (also masterwork, with the MW price being subsumed by the mithral cost, as RAW) cost only 250 gp?
jaelis 05-30-07, 08:05 AM	That would be dumb, of course. Two possible solutions are 1) the listed price is 500 gp/lb, which can be interpreted as a 1 lb minimum. So even a tiny mithral item would cost 500 gp. 2) charge the normal mwk price for a small item, on the basis that even if the amount of metal is trivial, using mithral can't make something less expensive. I favor (1) myself, since it keeps mithral rare and special. (Edit - risner below is right that you base it off the iron cost. The situation you describe does come up though for a Small dagger.)
risner 05-30-07, 10:03 AM	1) you use the amount of mithral in the item for pricing, correct? 2) mithral dagger cost only 250 gp? 1) No, all the precedence (and the text of mithril) seems to be that you use the weight of the iron version. That makes the mithril dagger 1lb = 500 gb/lb = 500 gp. 2) If you were true, it still wouldn't be 250 gp, since masterwork prices are included that makes the minimum price the masterwork price (300 gp.)
mvincent 05-30-07, 12:51 PM	you'd be paying the mithral price for 1/2 the weapon's base weight.No. You base the cost on the weapons original weight. wouldn't a mithral dagger (also masterwork, with the MW price being subsumed by the mithral cost, as RAW) cost only 250 gp?By strict RAW, a small mithral dagger would cost less than a regular masterwork version, but this is just a glitch. Many DM's would still enforce the masterwork cost as the minimum. Although... allowing for mithral to make less expensive, small, masterwork quality daggers is not unrealistic.
AAB 05-30-07, 11:45 PM	okay. good to know that you use the iron weight of the weapon.