Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ishmael_II 04-23-07, 04:18 AM	I have an issue that is not covered by rules in any books. My character intends to buy a heavily modified caravel as her character goal. While I've got all the magic upgrades covered, I can't seem to find any options for making the ship entirely out of darkwood (which would presumably greatly enhance it's speed and maneuvrability). Also, there isn't any way to indirectly calculate it's price. Even if I assume a price of 20 gp per lb of new weight (or 10 gp per lb for original) for darkwood, the ship's description doesn't give it's weight (which is otherwise irrelevant), and there is no price of wood per lb in any case, so I can't figure out how much of the market price goes into materials and how much into work. So, I'd need at least price of wood per lb, keeping in mind that it's quality wood, and the rough weight of the ship (to keep it simple, I could assume the full weight of the ship is wood). Now assuming the ship's weight is roughly cut in half by using darkwood, how would that affect it's speed and maneuvrability? Doubling it's speed seems too much (60 ft x wind). Would the ship be more maneuvrable (it's lighter) or less maneuvrable (too much sail for too little weight) or the weight has no effect on this? An oppinion from people who have at least some expirience in both sailing and game system would be preferable, but any help is heartily welcome.
j3st3r 04-23-07, 04:40 AM	Early caravels were usually two-masted boats of around 110 tons of pounds with an overall length of between 60–100 feet and a high length-to-beam ratio of around 3.5:1 making them very fast and maneuverable.
Watchman 04-23-07, 07:21 AM	The Mediterranean galley fleets would so collectively cream their pants over Darkwood. I don't think the designers quite thought through all the implications that stuff has.
Ishmael_II 04-23-07, 07:44 AM	Coming from Mediterranean country that developed some of the first and best caravels, I'm full aware of that :D (i.e. Croatian argosies) Rounded down to say 100 ton, removing rigging, cloth and metal, that'd be 200,000 gp for a darkwood hull? That seems quite acceptable, at least to my character. More than I had in mind, but not by much, bumping the price up to maybe 400,000 gp. So how much for labor?
Rhuxley 04-23-07, 08:10 AM	Well, according to the srd: Any wooden or mostly wooden item (such as a bow, an arrow, or a spear) made from darkwood is considered a masterwork item and... And the A&EG say masterwork ships go 5ft faster and have 5 more hp/inch than normal. Speed: Now darkwood is also lighter by 1/2, and that would feasably make the boat faster. The best way i can figure to calculate this is figure out the boats carrying capacity, and pretend its a creature with a strength score. For effects of this, im gunna call the boat a 4 legged creature. So a caravel with a max cargo of 120 tons, comes out to 90 tons for a normal biped. We also note that 60lbs is the weight that brings it to heavy load. So for this we go the opposite direction, we find on the new speed table whatever has an encumbered speed of 30ft, and it is a 40ft creature. So, I would say, increase the caravels speed to 40xwind for being lighter, and to 45 for being masterwork. So the caravel would have a speed of 45 x wind , and a cargo availability of 120 tons(Speed: wind x 35 if more than 30 tons, and wind x 20 if more than 60 tons). Hows that? Other effects: Masterwork controlls give you an additional +2 to all profession(sailor) checks. Cost(version 1): Once again we look to the A&EG for guidance. It says under comodoties that lumber, local costs 1-10gp/50lbs now price here depends on quality and this ship is based on average quality, so were gunna assume that its 5gp/50lbs. Now a caravel costs 10,000gp, and when crafting it, 1/3 is used on raw materials. Now 3333.33gp/5gp=666.666 groups of 50 lbs. 666.666 groups*50lbs/group = 33,333.3lbs of lumber. multiplied by 10gp/lb and your looking at a little over 300,000gp. Note that that is a lot of money, and not comparable to other enhancements. I would not use this to calculate weight. Cost(version 2): caravels have 24 sections, and darkwood costs 3,000gp/section as armour, so we can assume its the same cost to just substitute it for regular wood. That works out to 72,000gp. Note than a set of wind favoured sails costs about this much. and that would keep the ship going 90ft/round, and let you chose the wind direction. But the sails are magical, and would be subject ot appropriae effects. Also since the 2 effects stack(your ship would go 135 at x3 wind speed) it seems fair to have them cost the same. So hows this: Speed: Wind x 45ft +2 to all profession(sailor) checks cargo 120 tons(Speed: wind x 35 if more than 30 tons, and wind x 20 if 60 tons). 5 extra hp/inch of thickness. Cost: 72,000gp extra
Watchman 04-23-07, 09:11 AM	I'd suggest going with Version 1, actually. Ships of any size aren't cheap, fast or easy to make to begin with, nevermind now the additional carpentry and raw-material supply issues imposed by Darkwood. That is, unless the seafaring nations around the place actively cultivate Darkwood specifically for shipbuilding (and there's actually no reason why they wouldn't, save for the damn trees being excessively demanding about their environment or suchlike - and that wouldn't keep the people from regions where it does thrive from growing it for export...) in which case it would of course be rather more readily available, although the supply might be subject to inconvenient sale and export bans and other such "monopoly on a strategic resource"-type controls. But in this scenario it would be the norm for high-end ships to be made of the stuff anyway.
RavenDrake 04-23-07, 09:21 AM	The description for darkwood in the DMG says that the market price of a darkwood item increases by 10gp per pound over the cost of the masterwork version of the item(using the item's original weight to determine the new price). So, with j3st3r's information on Caravels: 100 tons (rounding down for rigging, sails, etc) equals 200,000 lbs. 200,000 x 10gp = 2,000,000 or two million gold pieces market price for a solid Darkwood ship of that size.
Watchman 04-23-07, 09:42 AM	On the other hand that'd also be a 100-ton ship - a relatively large one, and certainly rather bigger than a private individual is going to find useful for most purposes. The scale of what private enterpreneurs, be they pirates, merchants or both (as was the norm for most of history...) is more on the 40-ton range and below; relatively cheap, can be run with a small crew, easy to maintain, agile and versatile, and usually has little trouble finding anchorage.
Rhuxley 04-23-07, 11:11 AM	I'd suggest going with Version 1, actually. Ships of any size aren't cheap, fast or easy to make to begin with... The issue with thinking like this is that D&D is not realistic, i wish it was, but its not. Now in order for mechanics to be reasonable 72,000 is more reasonable than 300,000gp. I mean seriously, think about what it gives you, almost nothing. There are almost no mechanical benefits of having a faster ship. Its stronger and what not, but masterwork does the same thing and that only costs 20,000gp. It makes you a wee bit faster so you can get from one place to another faster, but boat speed is not very useful in any encounter. IMHO boats are overpriced as it is. A caravel costs 10,000gp. that isnt easily affordable before 15th level or so, unless you build your own, and by then, a magic carpet can fly too. The only thing a ship gives you is the ability to get into the Dread Pirate & great captain PrCs, +1 leadership score, and a bit of flavor. The only way I have ever seens a ship in game is as treasure when the boat we were on got attacked, and we defeated the attackers without messing up their ship.
tarkin 04-23-07, 12:22 PM	Speed is extremely important to traders, and for battle STRATEGY, if not tactics. Amont other things, the difference between a 10 day trip and a 9 day trip can easily be the difference between 10,000 lbs of ice and 9,000 lbs of ice.
Rhuxley 04-23-07, 12:42 PM	Speed is extremely important to traders, and for battle STRATEGY, if not tactics.I agree, but for the cost of 2sp/mile you could just grab passage on a ship, or for an income of 1sp/day you could work on the ship as a sailor(or for more money, as an officer if you have ranks in the skill, which you would if you were buying a boat anyway). I see no reason you would actually ever have to buy a ship. If you were trying to get hired on a boat, you could just pick the fastest boat in the harbour. No need to spend 300,000gp on buying it. Either way you have to find such a boat. Amont other things, the difference between a 10 day trip and a 9 day trip can easily be the difference between 10,000 lbs of ice and 9,000 lbs of ice.Im afraid i dont get your meaning here. Whats with the ice?
Watchman 04-23-07, 01:13 PM	The issue with thinking like this is that D&D is not realistic, i wish it was, but its not. Now in order for mechanics to be reasonable 72,000 is more reasonable than 300,000gp. I mean seriously, think about what it gives you, almost nothing. There are almost no mechanical benefits of having a faster ship. Its stronger and what not, but masterwork does the same thing and that only costs 20,000gp. It makes you a wee bit faster so you can get from one place to another faster, but boat speed is not very useful in any encounter. IMHO boats are overpriced as it is. A caravel costs 10,000gp. that isnt easily affordable before 15th level or so, unless you build your own, and by then, a magic carpet can fly too. The only thing a ship gives you is the ability to get into the Dread Pirate & great captain PrCs, +1 leadership score, and a bit of flavor. The only way I have ever seens a ship in game is as treasure when the boat we were on got attacked, and we defeated the attackers without messing up their ship.Most shipbuilders would actually employ Darkwood to halve the ship's structural mass while keeping the durability unchanged, except perhaps for some specific cases (say, ramming-related support structures stuff) opt for maintaining the same mass as with regular woods but geater strenght. Particularly for warships speed and lightness are otherwise far too useful for the potential to be ignored. Doubly so for muscle-powered rowing ships like galleys, the designs of which were ever grappling with the diametrically opposed requirements of speed and agility on one hand and durability, carrying capacity and armament load on the other. Merchant ships are a bit different story; their design priority is on cost-efficiency (and it must also be noted the cost-efficiency of cargo capacity alone is highly variable depending on the volume-value factor of the intented cargo and the loading facilities available), seaworthiness and cargo capacity. I'd actually hazard a guess that an expensive, high-end material like Darkwood would be reserved for purpose-built warships, raiders, messengers and scouts, as the merchant vessels are normally rather less dependent on speed for their important purposes and cannot afford to be excessively expensive to build due to rather obvious return-of-investement considerations. The exception would be specialists for carrying low-volume high-value perishable goods, although I can't off the top of my head think of too many articles that fit the bill. Or if Darkwood was "farmed" in near-industrial volumes. Given its incredible weight-strenght ratio it has so many applications - not in the least military - it really shouldn't take people too long to start experimenting with such "tree farms", especially if they're already familiar with the highly organized and efficient plantation-pattern "industrial agriculture" model already well established by Roman times. That might well drive the price down enough for its use in merchant ships to become economically viable. As for the price issue, meh. I don't think you quite grasp how these things work. Any larger ship, nevermind a purpose-made warship, is so expensive the only kinds of private individuals who can afford to have such built and maintained at their own expense are filthy rich folks like major landowning aristocrats, merchant princes, kings and the like; othwerwise it's going to have to be a more or less "communal" project pretty much by default, either built and maintained at communal expense (such as the Classical Athenian trireme fleet or the war-fleets of Medieval and Early Modern Italian city-states), state authorities, or a kind of "shareholder" system where numerous folk pool their resources for the project and later duly receive portions of the profits relative to their investements; for example Queen Elizabeth surreptiously financed the English "sea dogs" (largely comprised of minor gentry and upper commoners from Southern England) piracy against the Spanish this way, and duly received a share of the spoils. And, yes, cutting-edge high-quality ships like the one in the OP are going to be hideously expensive. You don't like it, settle for less bleeding edge and more cost-efficient setups (like most pirates, raiders, adventurers and lesser merchants did) or stay off the waves altogether. And odds are if someone's actually considering the commissioning of an enchanted ship made out of Darkwood the campaign has a rather maritime flair where such a budget-destroyer would find itself useful, so... Im afraid i dont get your meaning here. Whats with the ice?It was long a high-value luxury good around the Mediterranean, brought down from the mountains for use in all kinds of chilled dishes and drinks. Sherbet, still sold in stores today, was originally a Middle Eastern type of chilled fruit or berry juice for example. And, yes, ice and snow were also shipped over short to medium distances at least for rich customers able to meet the prices.
Rhuxley 04-23-07, 01:46 PM	As for the price issue, meh. I don't think you quite grasp how these things work. Any larger ship, nevermind a purpose-made warship, is so expensive the only kinds of private individuals who can afford to have such built and maintained at their own expense are filthy rich folks like major landowning aristocrats, merchant princes, kings and the like; othwerwise it's going to have to be a more or less "communal" project pretty much by default, either built and maintained at communal expense (such as the Classical Athenian trireme fleet or the war-fleets of Medieval and Early Modern Italian city-states), state authorities, or a kind of "shareholder" system where numerous folk pool their resources for the project and later duly receive portions of the profits relative to their investements; for example Queen Elizabeth surreptiously financed the English "sea dogs" (largely comprised of minor gentry and upper commoners from Southern England) piracy against the Spanish this way, and duly received a share of the spoils.I do understand how this works, if you throw out mechanics. this 82,000gp is a major waste in comparison to what one could do buying or making magic items. 82,000gp is a lot, and you dont even see that kinda cash untill later, when such an item is almost useless. Unless ya wanna be cool, and own a boat for flair. And, yes, cutting-edge high-quality ships like the one in the OP are going to be hideously expensive. You don't like it, settle for less bleeding edge and more cost-efficient setups (like most pirates, raiders, adventurers and lesser merchants did) or stay off the waves altogether. And odds are if someone's actually considering the commissioning of an enchanted ship made out of Darkwood the campaign has a rather maritime flair where such a budget-destroyer would find itself useful, so...The point im trying to make is this: "Why the hell would any player buy a ship, ever?" A simple caravel costs 10,000gp, thats just about the cost of a +1 Keen rapier +1 armour, and +1 shield. I fail so see how it is mechanicly equal.
Capt. Pixel 04-23-07, 02:51 PM	Changing the weight of the material that a ship is made of will not change its speed in a dramatic way. Of considerably more importance is the design of the hull. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Froude I would just allow the speed increase from a 'masterwork' (Froude Hull) design and an increase in cargo tonnage as offset by the decreased hull weight. :cool:
Watchman 04-23-07, 03:26 PM	That's definitely not the case with rowed ships anyway. Moreover, following around the links from the Wiki page you provided directly contradicts you statement, as reduced displacement (ie. lower weight) is specifically mentioned as one way of reducing "wave drag". Moreover there is the historical record of how wooden hulls were maintained - namely, they were made as waterproof as possible (tar was, and still is, an extremely good covering for this purpose; indeed it was very much a strategic resource for many major naval powers), as waterlogged wood is rather heavier than dry and duly acts very much as entirely excess displacement mass. Classical triremes, for example, had to be constantly "dried out" on dry land and their performance began to drop quite soon specifically due to this "waterlogging" phenomenom if they had to be in water for extended periods. Similarly most vessels that could readily be beached, were, and as often as possible. That some minor maintenance and repair work could be carried out on the side was of course a bonus.
Capt. Pixel 04-23-07, 03:52 PM	Surface roughness also has an effect. :rolleyes: If the Darkwood is so much lighter than the preferred hardwoods used in ship building, perhaps it's due to a higher porosity. If the wood is more porose, then perhaps it's more subject to waterlogging. Given the two 'perhaps', might not the net effect be no change in speed? Unless you're playing Iron Men and Wooden Ships, I'd tend to K.I.S.S. :cool:
Watchman 04-23-07, 04:17 PM	Surface roughness also has an effect.And was kept to a minimum on any ship by default. Why do you think they scrape assorted sessile sealife off the hulls, or employ various forms of toxic surface coverings (a very old method is actually covering the hull with thin lead sheets - heavy, certainly, but sure as Heck keeps the little things away) ? If the Darkwood is so much lighter than the preferred hardwoods used in ship building, perhaps it's due to a higher porosity. If the wood is more porose, then perhaps it's more subject to waterlogging. Given the two 'perhaps', might not the net effect be no change in speed?While I don't actually know how wood porosity and its structural strenght and weight interact, this is certainly possible - but it's not like there weren't ways of waterproofing even very porous wood. Especially in a world where both magic and alchemy work. And that will only become and issue once the wood has "taken in" enough water anyway, not earlier. Until then the reduced weight will allow for that much more knots. Moreover, even if there were such issues with Darkwood there's no reason it could not be employed extensively in all the structures that aren't in direct contact with the water all the time, which would for example greatly reduce the displacement and top-heaviness issues inherent in raised fighting platforms and similar superstructures.
Ishmael_II 04-24-07, 03:19 AM	So, with j3st3r's information on Caravels: 100 tons (rounding down for rigging, sails, etc) equals 200,000 lbs. 200,000 x 10gp = 2,000,000 or two million gold pieces market price for a solid Darkwood ship of that size. Thank you, indeed, I made a mistake of calculating in metric tons :) While I may not now much about ships, it still seems to me the weight of the vessel does have an impact on it's speed. It's not the only factor, hull design and sail surface being the other major two factors, but I seem to remember ships with full cargo holds being slower, as is the case in Stormwrack. So if a ship weighting around 100 tons cuts speed by one third to one half (can't quite remember now) with 30-50 lb cargo, I think reduced hull weight should have some impact too. Not necessarily double speed, but ceirtanly some improvement. Also, I have found from various other sources that caravels weighted around 50 ton. Which would make the three price options 150,000 gp, 72,000 gp and 1,000,000 gp respectively. Considering how greatly the ship is improved, the 72,000 gp version seems too cheap, even if it's still 7 times the cost of a normal ship. Although they would probably pay off soon, it's still a large investment for NPC merchants, and rarity of material can still be an obstacle. The 1,000,000 gp version, while it seems most simple, clear and rules-direct, is absolutely outrageous and out of anyone's range. The ship would take ages to pay off, assuming that someone could even make that big an investment. Considering the effects, it's not really worth it, and the risk of having 1 mil gp investment torched while sitting in the docks would drive any merchant conglomerte insane. Also, by the time you have 1 mil on your hands, you don't need the ship. Economy has never been meant to have a significant role in DnD and sadly has been neglected. For small-sized cargo or at least cargo that can be broken up into smaller parts, how cheap it is to hire a spellcaster with Teleport and several Bags of Holding? Spellcasters of such level may be rare but are still more common an cheaper than a 1 mil or even half a mil gp ship. Slightly off-topic: I always thought that price reflected both the quality and rarity of the material, but it seems a lot of people like to give the price an extra bump just because it's rare. E.g. several DMs I know tend to bump mithril armor prices just because mithril is rare.
chucky 04-24-07, 01:16 PM	When your done find out how much it would cost to cast ironwood on the entire thing :)