Dastana and Chahar-aina [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dastana and Chahar-aina [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
s4dfish
10-18-04, 06:07 PM Any reason not to let them stack with all Light armor? It already stacks with the Chain Shirt, which is easily the 'best' light armor. Any reason not to let them stack with, say, studded leather?
Iron Chef Vastrox
10-18-04, 08:17 PM If you are a DM, don't allow these into your game.

If you are a PC, don't try to 'break' the DM by using these items.

Honestly, the reasoning behind them is stupid. Your AC goes up because you're throwing on more armor. There already exists a system for armor, incorporating Light, Medium, and Heavy armors based on armor bonus provided, but the Dastana and Chahar-aina defy logic and claim exemption.

In 3.5 Edition, Dastana should provide a Shield bonus and take up a Bracer slot.

Chahar-aina should be a separate type of armor, like Padded.

But to answer your question, by the precedent set, no, there isn't any reason not to allow these items to stack with all light armors. But the light armors should become medium armors, because that's what adding more stuff to a suit of armor does.
Sensei Gith
10-18-04, 09:28 PM Yep. Dastana and Chahar-aina are crazybroken. It would be better for everyone involved to just describe them with flavor text instead of giving them stats.
JLP
10-18-04, 10:56 PM From the OA FAQ:

Elven chainmail is very light. Can a player combine a
dastana and chahar-aina with elven chainmail?

No. You can use dastana or chahar-aina (or both) only over
padded, leather, or chain shirt armor. (See page 75 in the
Oriental Adventures book.)and

If you use a dastana or chahar-aina that has an
enhancement bonus, does that bonus stack with or
replace any enhancement bonuses the foundation armor
might have? If you’re also using a magic shield, how does
using a dastana or chahar-aina affect that? What
happens if the armor and the dastana or chahar-aina
both have additional special properties?

When you add a dastana or chahar-aina, you get either the
enhancement bonus of the added piece or the enhancement
bonus of the foundation armor (not a shield), whichever is
bigger; if you add both a dastana or chahar-aina, you use the
biggest enhancement bonus of the three.
A magic shield’s enhancement bonus still stacks with
whatever enhancement bonus you’re using for the armor
you’re wearing on your body.
No matter which enhancement bonus you use for the armor
you’re wearing on your body, you get the benefit of any
special armor qualities any of the items you’re using have,
except that similar qualities don’t stack. For example, you
wear a +3 chain shirt of light fortification, a +2 dastana of
spell resistance (13), a +1 chahar-aina of spell resistance
(17), and a +1 shield of heavy fortification. Your panoply of
armor has a total enhancement bonus of +4 (+3 from the
chain shirt and +1 from the shield), and you benefit from the
heavy fortification and spell resistance (17) qualities of the
shield and the chahar-aina.
s4dfish
10-19-04, 03:39 PM If you are a DM, don't allow these into your game.

If you are a PC, don't try to 'break' the DM by using these items.I agree that they can be easily be abused early on, but after level 5 I don't see them as terribly helpful.
In 3.5 Edition, Dastana should provide a Shield bonus and take up a Bracer slot.agreed
But the light armors should become medium armors, because that's what adding more stuff to a suit of armor does.I would make sense for the chahar-aina to change the base armor to medium as it requires proficiency in medium armor.

Additionally as a chahar-aina is unslotted, should it cost more to magically enhance (as per unslotted magic items), or should it take up a slot?
Yep. Dastana and Chahar-aina are crazybroken. It would be better for everyone involved to just describe them with flavor text instead of giving them stats.I just don't see how they're so broken. Yes they can be a powerful addition for low-level characters, but beyond that they loss of the bracers slot is unpleasant. You've never going to get more than a +1 armor bonus from the Chahar-aina.

Yes it can be a nice addition at some levels, but I would hardly call it broken. It's like calling the Greatsword broken because it's arguably the best two-handed weapon.
Sensei Gith
10-19-04, 04:08 PM I just don't see how they're so broken. Yes they can be a powerful addition for low-level characters, but beyond that they loss of the bracers slot is unpleasant. You've never going to get more than a +1 armor bonus from the Chahar-aina.
+5 heavy fortification Chahar-aina.

Yes it can be a nice addition at some levels, but I would hardly call it broken. It's like calling the Greatsword broken because it's arguably the best two-handed weapon.
It's not. The chahar-aini and dastana are simply gravy that the recipients don't need. A more comparable mechanic would be a glove that can be enhanced as a weapon but applicable to and stacking with weapons used in that hand.
Iron Chef Vastrox
10-19-04, 04:13 PM The real problem doesn't even arise until higher levels when you have enough cash to take advantage of the Chahar-aina and Dastana.

+5 Mithral Chain shirt of +5edness
+1 Dastana of +9edness
+1 Chahar-aina of +9edness

No speed penalty, No additional ACP, +18 potential armor enhancement bonuses. And you can still use a Shield.

Like I said... wow.
s4dfish
10-19-04, 06:33 PM +5 heavy fortification Chahar-aina.which wouldn't stack with the enhancement bonus of the base armor
The real problem doesn't even arise until higher levels when you have enough cash to take advantage of the Chahar-aina and Dastana.

+5 Mithral Chain shirt of +5edness
+1 Dastana of +9edness
+1 Chahar-aina of +9edness

No speed penalty, No additional ACP, +18 potential armor enhancement bonuses. And you can still use a Shield.First, treat the Dastana as a shield bonus so it will not stack with a shield.

If you want the leave the Chahar-aina as is fine, but the cost of a magical one should double as it is an unslotted magic item. So your example items are going to cost as follows:
+5 Mithral Chain shirt of +5edness = 100,000 + cost of armor
+1 Dastana of +9edness = 100,000 + cost of armor
+1 Chahar-aina of +9edness = 200,000 + cost of armor

So you've spent ~400,000 gp on armor. A character would have to be at least 18th level to have this much equipment. Add in a +5 weapon of +5ednes (I like that term :)) for another 200,000 gp and thats 78% of your 20th level character's wealth. Worth it?
Sensei Gith
10-19-04, 08:01 PM which wouldn't stack with the enhancement bonus of the base armor
The special qualities stack.

So you've spent ~400,000 gp on armor.
His example was deliberately extreme. Compare instead the price of a +1 heavy fortification chain shirt and +5 chahar-aina to a +5 heavy fortificaton chain shirt.

+6 chain shirt: 36,000 gp
+5 chahar-aina: 25,000 gp

+10 chain shirt: 100,000 gp

That's just over half price. The same thing can be done with the dastana, except that even if you consider them shield bonuses, you do not need a free hand.

Still broken.
Watchman
10-20-04, 06:49 AM And stupid to boot. Char aina (lit. "four mirrors") was really just an Indo-Persian version of breastplate, and dastana was simply the sort of a tubular plate forearm guard contemporary Europeans would've called a vambrace. Char ainas were commonly worn over mail shirts, true, but that doesn't exactly justify making it a separate entity in the pretty abstract D&D armor system - mail shirt plus char aina ought to equal about Breastplate or Chainmail, depending on how much you paid for it, the difference to "regular" ones being a question of flavor and style.

Counting dastanas as separate pieces makes about as much sense as making it important if a Breastplate-wearing combatant is also wearing greaves and helmet, or how long exactly the sleeves of a Mail Shirt are... :rolleyes:
s4dfish
10-20-04, 01:51 PM +6 chain shirt: 36,000 gp
+5 chahar-aina: 25,000 gp

+10 chain shirt: 100,000 gpIf my logic of the Chahar-aina being an unslotted magic item is correct, the price would be doubled to 50,000 gp. The sum would end up at 86,000 compared to the 100,000 of the +10 chain shirt. Your point is still valid, but not quite as broken as initally stated.
The same thing can be done with the dastana, except that even if you consider them shield bonuses, you do not need a free hand.

Still broken.Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.
You can’t bash someone with a buckler.
As per the SRD you can use a buckler on the same arm as a weapon. You lose the AC bonus from the buckler when attacking, but I believe that you would keep the extra enhancements (fortification etc.). Perhaps a house rule stating that when both hands are occupied (i.e. wielding two weapons or weilding a weapon with two hands) you lose the AC bonus from the dastana, basically you need one free hand to get the AC bonus.
Sensei Gith
10-20-04, 04:31 PM If my logic of the Chahar-aina being an unslotted magic item is correct, the price would be doubled to 50,000 gp. The sum would end up at 86,000 compared to the 100,000 of the +10 chain shirt. Your point is still valid, but not quite as broken as initally stated.
You agree, then, that they are broken?

As per the SRD you can use a buckler on the same arm as a weapon. You lose the AC bonus from the buckler when attacking, but I believe that you would keep the extra enhancements (fortification etc.). Perhaps a house rule stating that when both hands are occupied (i.e. wielding two weapons or weilding a weapon with two hands) you lose the AC bonus from the dastana, basically you need one free hand to get the AC bonus.
Since the dastana does not suffer that penalty, you can put your AC bonuses there and your specal abilities on the buckler. Still broken, even if you house rule it to be a buckler clone.
s4dfish
10-20-04, 06:14 PM You agree, then, that they are broken?I will admit that it is a powerful addition. I am not convinced that it is broken.

Would doubling the cost of a magical Chahar-aina (as an unslotted item) and have a character wearing it effectively be wearing medium armor (since it requires medium armor proficiency) balance it enough in your mind?
Since the dastana does not suffer that penalty, you can put your AC bonuses there and your specal abilities on the buckler. Still broken, even if you house rule it to be a buckler clone.Are you talking about using both the Dastana and the Buckler at the same time? If the Dastana gives a shield bonus it shouldn't stack with the buckler. How is the Dastana house ruled to behave like a buckler (which it won't stack with) how is that broken?

Is the limiting of a so house ruled Dastana (mechanically identical to, and not stacking with, the buckler) to light armor sufficient hindrance to allow the Dastana to not conflict with melee attacks (the buckler adds a -1 to melee attacks)?

I suppose I'm fishing for what you would need to consider these items not broken.
TheMightyMcClaw
10-20-04, 06:20 PM I'd like to point out that a +1 bonus to AC is going to result in 5% of attacks that would've hit otherwise missing, regardless of level. So it's pretty much equally broken all of the time.
s4dfish
10-20-04, 06:46 PM I'd like to point out that a +1 bonus to AC is going to result in 5% of attacks that would've hit otherwise missing, regardless of level. So it's pretty much equally broken all of the time.But at the loss of being able to use gauntlets of ogre power which could possibly increase your ability to deal damage by 15%?
Sensei Gith
10-20-04, 08:55 PM Would doubling the cost of a magical Chahar-aina (as an unslotted item) and have a character wearing it effectively be wearing medium armor (since it requires medium armor proficiency) balance it enough in your mind?
No. It's still gravy for anyone who wants it. If you want piecemeal armor in your game, you will need to substantially modify the RAW to avoid simply giving characters higher AC's virtually for free.

Are you talking about using both the Dastana and the Buckler at the same time? If the Dastana gives a shield bonus it shouldn't stack with the buckler. How is the Dastana house ruled to behave like a buckler (which it won't stack with) how is that broken?
I thought that dastana stacked.

I suppose I'm fishing for what you would need to consider these items not broken.
Write a system to govern piecemeal armor, because the current system was not designed for and cannot adequately handle it.
s4dfish
10-20-04, 09:25 PM No. It's still gravy for anyone who wants it. If you want piecemeal armor in your game, you will need to substantially modify the RAW to avoid simply giving characters higher AC's virtually for free.you're so picky :)I thought that dastana stacked.by the RAW it does, but I would even admit that that is broken. I view it more as a shield replacement.Write a system to govern piecemeal armor, because the current system was not designed for and cannot adequately handle it.I think I may just leave this one as dead. I'm already overhauling the RAW armor, see my sig if you're curious. I may eventually try to add something along these lines, but obviously with some significant revisions.

Thanks for playing :devil:'s advocate with me
Nazzareth
10-20-04, 11:28 PM Chahar-aina is medium armour no question about that it always has been, any character that wears it is wearing medium armour and takes the penatlies.

I don't see it as broken when compared to medium armour's. However things can get unbalanced when special materials and magic becomes involved. Double cost for the Chahar-aina enchantments or the armour with the greater enchanment negates the armour with the lesser enchantment should solve the problem.

As for a Dastana shield bonus sounds better than a armour bonus for it, you could always make it an exotic armour, therefore you need a feat to use it, as this can represent skill in using the Dastana to block blows instead of it just being an add on scrap of armour, like a vambrace.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
s4dfish 10-18-04, 06:07 PM	Any reason not to let them stack with all Light armor? It already stacks with the Chain Shirt, which is easily the 'best' light armor. Any reason not to let them stack with, say, studded leather?
Iron Chef Vastrox 10-18-04, 08:17 PM	If you are a DM, don't allow these into your game. If you are a PC, don't try to 'break' the DM by using these items. Honestly, the reasoning behind them is stupid. Your AC goes up because you're throwing on more armor. There already exists a system for armor, incorporating Light, Medium, and Heavy armors based on armor bonus provided, but the Dastana and Chahar-aina defy logic and claim exemption. In 3.5 Edition, Dastana should provide a Shield bonus and take up a Bracer slot. Chahar-aina should be a separate type of armor, like Padded. But to answer your question, by the precedent set, no, there isn't any reason not to allow these items to stack with all light armors. But the light armors should become medium armors, because that's what adding more stuff to a suit of armor does.
Sensei Gith 10-18-04, 09:28 PM	Yep. Dastana and Chahar-aina are crazybroken. It would be better for everyone involved to just describe them with flavor text instead of giving them stats.
JLP 10-18-04, 10:56 PM	From the OA FAQ: Elven chainmail is very light. Can a player combine a dastana and chahar-aina with elven chainmail? No. You can use dastana or chahar-aina (or both) only over padded, leather, or chain shirt armor. (See page 75 in the Oriental Adventures book.)and If you use a dastana or chahar-aina that has an enhancement bonus, does that bonus stack with or replace any enhancement bonuses the foundation armor might have? If you’re also using a magic shield, how does using a dastana or chahar-aina affect that? What happens if the armor and the dastana or chahar-aina both have additional special properties? When you add a dastana or chahar-aina, you get either the enhancement bonus of the added piece or the enhancement bonus of the foundation armor (not a shield), whichever is bigger; if you add both a dastana or chahar-aina, you use the biggest enhancement bonus of the three. A magic shield’s enhancement bonus still stacks with whatever enhancement bonus you’re using for the armor you’re wearing on your body. No matter which enhancement bonus you use for the armor you’re wearing on your body, you get the benefit of any special armor qualities any of the items you’re using have, except that similar qualities don’t stack. For example, you wear a +3 chain shirt of light fortification, a +2 dastana of spell resistance (13), a +1 chahar-aina of spell resistance (17), and a +1 shield of heavy fortification. Your panoply of armor has a total enhancement bonus of +4 (+3 from the chain shirt and +1 from the shield), and you benefit from the heavy fortification and spell resistance (17) qualities of the shield and the chahar-aina.
s4dfish 10-19-04, 03:39 PM	If you are a DM, don't allow these into your game. If you are a PC, don't try to 'break' the DM by using these items.I agree that they can be easily be abused early on, but after level 5 I don't see them as terribly helpful. In 3.5 Edition, Dastana should provide a Shield bonus and take up a Bracer slot.agreed But the light armors should become medium armors, because that's what adding more stuff to a suit of armor does.I would make sense for the chahar-aina to change the base armor to medium as it requires proficiency in medium armor. Additionally as a chahar-aina is unslotted, should it cost more to magically enhance (as per unslotted magic items), or should it take up a slot? Yep. Dastana and Chahar-aina are crazybroken. It would be better for everyone involved to just describe them with flavor text instead of giving them stats.I just don't see how they're so broken. Yes they can be a powerful addition for low-level characters, but beyond that they loss of the bracers slot is unpleasant. You've never going to get more than a +1 armor bonus from the Chahar-aina. Yes it can be a nice addition at some levels, but I would hardly call it broken. It's like calling the Greatsword broken because it's arguably the best two-handed weapon.
Sensei Gith 10-19-04, 04:08 PM	I just don't see how they're so broken. Yes they can be a powerful addition for low-level characters, but beyond that they loss of the bracers slot is unpleasant. You've never going to get more than a +1 armor bonus from the Chahar-aina. +5 heavy fortification Chahar-aina. Yes it can be a nice addition at some levels, but I would hardly call it broken. It's like calling the Greatsword broken because it's arguably the best two-handed weapon. It's not. The chahar-aini and dastana are simply gravy that the recipients don't need. A more comparable mechanic would be a glove that can be enhanced as a weapon but applicable to and stacking with weapons used in that hand.
Iron Chef Vastrox 10-19-04, 04:13 PM	The real problem doesn't even arise until higher levels when you have enough cash to take advantage of the Chahar-aina and Dastana. +5 Mithral Chain shirt of +5edness +1 Dastana of +9edness +1 Chahar-aina of +9edness No speed penalty, No additional ACP, +18 potential armor enhancement bonuses. And you can still use a Shield. Like I said... wow.
s4dfish 10-19-04, 06:33 PM	+5 heavy fortification Chahar-aina.which wouldn't stack with the enhancement bonus of the base armor The real problem doesn't even arise until higher levels when you have enough cash to take advantage of the Chahar-aina and Dastana. +5 Mithral Chain shirt of +5edness +1 Dastana of +9edness +1 Chahar-aina of +9edness No speed penalty, No additional ACP, +18 potential armor enhancement bonuses. And you can still use a Shield.First, treat the Dastana as a shield bonus so it will not stack with a shield. If you want the leave the Chahar-aina as is fine, but the cost of a magical one should double as it is an unslotted magic item. So your example items are going to cost as follows: +5 Mithral Chain shirt of +5edness = 100,000 + cost of armor +1 Dastana of +9edness = 100,000 + cost of armor +1 Chahar-aina of +9edness = 200,000 + cost of armor So you've spent ~400,000 gp on armor. A character would have to be at least 18th level to have this much equipment. Add in a +5 weapon of +5ednes (I like that term :)) for another 200,000 gp and thats 78% of your 20th level character's wealth. Worth it?
Sensei Gith 10-19-04, 08:01 PM	which wouldn't stack with the enhancement bonus of the base armor The special qualities stack. So you've spent ~400,000 gp on armor. His example was deliberately extreme. Compare instead the price of a +1 heavy fortification chain shirt and +5 chahar-aina to a +5 heavy fortificaton chain shirt. +6 chain shirt: 36,000 gp +5 chahar-aina: 25,000 gp +10 chain shirt: 100,000 gp That's just over half price. The same thing can be done with the dastana, except that even if you consider them shield bonuses, you do not need a free hand. Still broken.
Watchman 10-20-04, 06:49 AM	And stupid to boot. Char aina (lit. "four mirrors") was really just an Indo-Persian version of breastplate, and dastana was simply the sort of a tubular plate forearm guard contemporary Europeans would've called a vambrace. Char ainas were commonly worn over mail shirts, true, but that doesn't exactly justify making it a separate entity in the pretty abstract D&D armor system - mail shirt plus char aina ought to equal about Breastplate or Chainmail, depending on how much you paid for it, the difference to "regular" ones being a question of flavor and style. Counting dastanas as separate pieces makes about as much sense as making it important if a Breastplate-wearing combatant is also wearing greaves and helmet, or how long exactly the sleeves of a Mail Shirt are... :rolleyes:
s4dfish 10-20-04, 01:51 PM	+6 chain shirt: 36,000 gp +5 chahar-aina: 25,000 gp +10 chain shirt: 100,000 gpIf my logic of the Chahar-aina being an unslotted magic item is correct, the price would be doubled to 50,000 gp. The sum would end up at 86,000 compared to the 100,000 of the +10 chain shirt. Your point is still valid, but not quite as broken as initally stated. The same thing can be done with the dastana, except that even if you consider them shield bonuses, you do not need a free hand. Still broken.Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round. You can’t bash someone with a buckler. As per the SRD you can use a buckler on the same arm as a weapon. You lose the AC bonus from the buckler when attacking, but I believe that you would keep the extra enhancements (fortification etc.). Perhaps a house rule stating that when both hands are occupied (i.e. wielding two weapons or weilding a weapon with two hands) you lose the AC bonus from the dastana, basically you need one free hand to get the AC bonus.
Sensei Gith 10-20-04, 04:31 PM	If my logic of the Chahar-aina being an unslotted magic item is correct, the price would be doubled to 50,000 gp. The sum would end up at 86,000 compared to the 100,000 of the +10 chain shirt. Your point is still valid, but not quite as broken as initally stated. You agree, then, that they are broken? As per the SRD you can use a buckler on the same arm as a weapon. You lose the AC bonus from the buckler when attacking, but I believe that you would keep the extra enhancements (fortification etc.). Perhaps a house rule stating that when both hands are occupied (i.e. wielding two weapons or weilding a weapon with two hands) you lose the AC bonus from the dastana, basically you need one free hand to get the AC bonus. Since the dastana does not suffer that penalty, you can put your AC bonuses there and your specal abilities on the buckler. Still broken, even if you house rule it to be a buckler clone.
s4dfish 10-20-04, 06:14 PM	You agree, then, that they are broken?I will admit that it is a powerful addition. I am not convinced that it is broken. Would doubling the cost of a magical Chahar-aina (as an unslotted item) and have a character wearing it effectively be wearing medium armor (since it requires medium armor proficiency) balance it enough in your mind? Since the dastana does not suffer that penalty, you can put your AC bonuses there and your specal abilities on the buckler. Still broken, even if you house rule it to be a buckler clone.Are you talking about using both the Dastana and the Buckler at the same time? If the Dastana gives a shield bonus it shouldn't stack with the buckler. How is the Dastana house ruled to behave like a buckler (which it won't stack with) how is that broken? Is the limiting of a so house ruled Dastana (mechanically identical to, and not stacking with, the buckler) to light armor sufficient hindrance to allow the Dastana to not conflict with melee attacks (the buckler adds a -1 to melee attacks)? I suppose I'm fishing for what you would need to consider these items not broken.
TheMightyMcClaw 10-20-04, 06:20 PM	I'd like to point out that a +1 bonus to AC is going to result in 5% of attacks that would've hit otherwise missing, regardless of level. So it's pretty much equally broken all of the time.
s4dfish 10-20-04, 06:46 PM	I'd like to point out that a +1 bonus to AC is going to result in 5% of attacks that would've hit otherwise missing, regardless of level. So it's pretty much equally broken all of the time.But at the loss of being able to use gauntlets of ogre power which could possibly increase your ability to deal damage by 15%?
Sensei Gith 10-20-04, 08:55 PM	Would doubling the cost of a magical Chahar-aina (as an unslotted item) and have a character wearing it effectively be wearing medium armor (since it requires medium armor proficiency) balance it enough in your mind? No. It's still gravy for anyone who wants it. If you want piecemeal armor in your game, you will need to substantially modify the RAW to avoid simply giving characters higher AC's virtually for free. Are you talking about using both the Dastana and the Buckler at the same time? If the Dastana gives a shield bonus it shouldn't stack with the buckler. How is the Dastana house ruled to behave like a buckler (which it won't stack with) how is that broken? I thought that dastana stacked. I suppose I'm fishing for what you would need to consider these items not broken. Write a system to govern piecemeal armor, because the current system was not designed for and cannot adequately handle it.
s4dfish 10-20-04, 09:25 PM	No. It's still gravy for anyone who wants it. If you want piecemeal armor in your game, you will need to substantially modify the RAW to avoid simply giving characters higher AC's virtually for free.you're so picky :)I thought that dastana stacked.by the RAW it does, but I would even admit that that is broken. I view it more as a shield replacement.Write a system to govern piecemeal armor, because the current system was not designed for and cannot adequately handle it.I think I may just leave this one as dead. I'm already overhauling the RAW armor, see my sig if you're curious. I may eventually try to add something along these lines, but obviously with some significant revisions. Thanks for playing :devil:'s advocate with me
Nazzareth 10-20-04, 11:28 PM	Chahar-aina is medium armour no question about that it always has been, any character that wears it is wearing medium armour and takes the penatlies. I don't see it as broken when compared to medium armour's. However things can get unbalanced when special materials and magic becomes involved. Double cost for the Chahar-aina enchantments or the armour with the greater enchanment negates the armour with the lesser enchantment should solve the problem. As for a Dastana shield bonus sounds better than a armour bonus for it, you could always make it an exotic armour, therefore you need a feat to use it, as this can represent skill in using the Dastana to block blows instead of it just being an add on scrap of armour, like a vambrace.