Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ront Iron-Roar 10-21-05, 12:54 PM	Do any of you guys have any ideas on what sort of attack or what strength check would be involved to tear the limb from something? I've been reading up on Beowulf recently and it's a random thought I'd like to have answered.
tarkin 10-21-05, 01:38 PM	Tearing the limbs off a dead (not undead/construct) target: Standard Action. Strength Check, DC = 10 + their Con score (not bonus) + Natural Armor, when alive. Tearing the limbs off a Live/undead/construct target, who is helpess: Full Round Action. No strength check should be involved. You make a single attack, but automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or lose the limb. If used against creatures that are normally immune to fort save stuff (undead), this still works, use the Will save. (Stolen from Coup De Grace, the most appropriate and closest thing in the game). Tearing off the limbs from a Live / active target: Three Full Rounds. 1) You need a feat/special ability to do this. 2) You make a single attack and grapple for three rounds. At the end of the third round, if your opponent has not won a single grapple check, proceed to step 3. 3) Roll damage normally for your grapple. Defender takes that damage. Then they make a Fort check, DC 10+ damage done. If they fail, you have ripped off a non-essential limb (leg, arm, head only if the creature has multiple heads). If the creature normally is immune to Fort save things, he is not immune to this effect.
arbanafal 10-21-05, 02:13 PM	Why? Most monsters that are capable of tearing a opponent apart have that ability listed in their stats. Mostly when they have improved grappled their opponent they either rend or whatever and do a lot of damage. Losing enough HP to drop below 0 would constitute being ripped apart.
Wyrd Bearer 10-21-05, 02:43 PM	tarkin, I'm surprised to see you supporting this idea. This falls under the idea of called shots and the like, which have no place in D&D.
tarkin 10-21-05, 02:44 PM	Rending as portrayed in the monsters, does not involve removing arms. Instead it is a "do more damage thing". For example: Rend (Ex) A girallon that hits with two or more claw attacks latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals an extra 2d4+9 points of damage. No ripping the arms off, just a small amount of extra damage. That is OK, but... He is not looking for that, he is looking for a thing where you can basically rip the arms off someone without having to do enough damage to kill them. The things I listed are appropriate for that. ----------------------------- Called shots do exist in d20. They just don't like to call them that. Examples include: Sunder trip Power Attack Coup De Grace Assasin's death strike. Monk's stunning blow ... What I did was 1) Allow it for dead people (see sunder) 2) Allow it using a Coup De Grace type mechanism 3) Allow it using an Asasasin's Death strike type mechanism.
Arvagor 10-21-05, 03:11 PM	Called shots do exist in d20. They just don't like to call them that. Examples include: Sunder trip Power Attack Coup De Grace Assasin's death strike. Monk's stunning blow ... ? ? ? How do you figure? The only one of those that comes close to a called shot is Sunder, in that the attack is specifically described as targetting your opponent's weapon. None of the others has anything to do with targetting specific body parts... Trip is so-so; the flavor text in various places talks about not being able to trip creatures that use limbs for locomotion, but a 'trip' as a concept could come across as shoving somebody off-balance...
00_Whupass 10-21-05, 05:22 PM	I often see people calling for rules for dismemberment and mayhem (which is the actual criminal charge for dismembering someone) in one form or another, whether that be critical hit tables, called shots, or this new incarnation strenght check DCs to remove a limb, and I always have to question the motives and farsightedness of such a thought. Would it be cool for your hero to tear the arm off an orc and then make some whitty retort about how he's been disarmed? Sure, that woud be neat. Would it be cool for a troll to rip your left leg off, no...not so much. Remember the general rule "Everything you can do your DM can do better, your DM can do anything better than you" Furthermore the likelihood is that this is a far greater handicap for PCs than NPCs or Monsters: Cut the arm off and orc, then later in the encounter kill him, net effect on adventure almost zero. Recurring villian looses an arm in a battle but escapes, DM shifts him into a plotting type roll rather than a combatant, net effect on adventure moderate. Low-mid level PC has his arm crushed under a rock from a deadfall trap, to free him his party members must cut his arm off, net effect of adventure Game Ending. Ripping off cheesy mastercard commercials in internet gaming forum, priceless.
Ront Iron-Roar 10-21-05, 05:53 PM	Whatever you people do don't call it powergaming. All this was is a random thought, nothing that all of you have to troll and critisize. It's meant to be fun, but, not fricken rediculous. Don't think of it as anything trying to influence an entire campaign. Just one of those what if questions. Personally, I rather like the 10+ Constitution+ Natural Armor thing Fortitude save though. To put, this in regard to not underpower classes like Reaping Mauler or similar class abilities. Though, let's have it be like this. Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple. Each round when two foes are grappling and one foe has won the grapple. So the attacker decides to take a -4 on a grapple to concentrate on the limb of his foe. If he succeeds he pins his foe and begin pulling on the selected limb. Failure results in the defender breaking the grapple entirely. The attacker makes a Strength check versus the defender. If the attacker wins he can deal damage equal to his STR modifier to his foe. The attacker and defender continue to do strength checks again and again. As well, as continueing the grapple checks to maintain grapples. Each success of the attacker results in the same damage. The attacker cannot deal more damage then 1/5 of the defenders total HP in this special grapple. But, at the total depletion of that 1/5 of HP the attacker may choose to make a STR check equal to 10+ the defenders Constitution+any natural armor.
ShinAkuma2 10-21-05, 06:00 PM	? ? ? How do you figure? The only one of those that comes close to a called shot is Sunder, in that the attack is specifically described as targetting your opponent's weapon. None of the others has anything to do with targetting specific body parts... Trip is so-so; the flavor text in various places talks about not being able to trip creatures that use limbs for locomotion, but a 'trip' as a concept could come across as shoving somebody off-balance... Many of those are essentially aiming for something vital to inflict extra damage or whatnot. That's why they usually require an opponent who isn't moving around too much.
bave 10-21-05, 06:18 PM	Do you have any idea how strong tendons, muscle, cartilage and skin is? Goooood luck. Could a giant pluck some arms off, sure. But I dont think anything of the same size (IE: medium vs. medium) is going to be taking any limbs off. Not only that its really a quite ridiculous notion, it never would happen. If you could wrestle around with another creature while trying to get this grip, why on earth wouldn't you just break its neck? Cut its throat? Or plan pummel it. No one fighting for their life would make such an obscene attempt.
Ront Iron-Roar 10-21-05, 06:36 PM	You know not every fight is necessarily to the death. I mean it could be a bugbear wanting to teach a goblin a lesson. Plus, thats the reason why in the Strength check we use the Constition Score. The 16 not the +3. The entirety of the constitution symbolizes the strength of the tissues. Now, for breaking bone such as the spine. Go along the same lines as ripping of a limb. Though,I was thinking of using the DC for breaking wood and adding the Constitution score to the DC. All it is, is a STR plus a d20 roll. You'll have to have a high strength score. I doubt, even an 18 will accomplish this.
Jshock_75 10-22-05, 09:23 AM	Tarkin, I think you're on the right track. Note that Grendel actually ran away from the fight, but died later- he probably had the Diehard feat.
howlingwolf 10-22-05, 01:04 PM	Now of course, we come to the next logical question. What's the damage of beating someone with a ripped off limb? :D
Arvagor 10-22-05, 01:10 PM	"Unarmed strike", of course! :D Actually, it could likely be treated as a club the same size as the creature you "took" it from... So a Medium creature yields a 1H weapon that does 1d6/x2 damage, non-lethal since it's squishy, like a sap), the wielder taking a -4 on his attack rolls since it it an improvised weapon...
ramhammer 10-22-05, 01:22 PM	1D4 bloodgining :D
ksbsnowowl 10-22-05, 02:20 PM	I remember seeing an issue of Dragon at a used book store that had stats for Grendal and the other creatures from Beowulf; I don't know the issue number, but that would certainly be a good place to look.