Post/Author/DateTime	Post
djinni 01-23-06, 04:01 PM	the rule about temporary hitpoints being lost cannot result in you dying is usually ignored when it comes to things like the barbarian rage. is there a reason for this? am I missing written rule? a barbarian gets +4 con giving him +2 hitpoints per level (when raging) where is the rule that after his rage ends he can die from losing con? example level 1 barbarian has 12 hit points rages gains +2 hp total 14 takes 13 points of damage. (total hp 1) rage ends con returns to normal he falls down and begins bleeding to death? similar example about losing con from damage? if a level 2 wizard with 5 hitpoints (argpoodle at level two only had 3hp) has an 11 con and takes 8 con in damage he loses 8hp bringing him below zero and cannot be raised any higher than that.
jaelis 01-23-06, 04:22 PM	Additional hp gained from Con increases are not technically temporary hit points, that is the point of the line in the rage class feature, "These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are." In the example you cited, the PC would die. Temporary hit points are hp granted, for instance, by the Aid or False Life spells. They just give you some extra hp. And when you take damage, you lose the temporary hp first. So you can never die when your temp hp go away, unless perhaps you were already dying when you gained the temp hp. Because otherwise, if you have any temp hp left, you must also have some normal hp left too.
djinni 01-23-06, 04:58 PM	that's the logical ruling of why it is the way we think it is but is there anytihng written that says so?
jaelis 01-23-06, 05:03 PM	Guess I'm not sure what you're looking for. Isn't: "These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are." good enough?
Zherog 01-23-06, 05:07 PM	Another difference - a barbarian's hit points gained from raging can be healed (as long as he's still raging). Temporary hit points from, for example, the aid spell cannot be recovered via a healing spell such as cure light wounds.
djinni 01-23-06, 05:38 PM	Guess I'm not sure what you're looking for. Isn't: "These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are." good enough? if that was the only thing then yes it would be, however since they are defined as "temporary hitpoints" the ruling about not being killed form the loss of temporary hitpoints begs a defining rule for what happens in these two limited situations.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 01-23-06, 05:54 PM	if that was the only thing then yes it would be, however since they are defined as "temporary hitpoints" They are not defined as temporary hit points. Indeed, the description of Barbarian Rage takes pains to explicitly point out that these added hit points are different from "temporary hitpoints". When your Con changes---for whatever reason---your actual hit points change. The amount of damage you have taken does not change, though, and if the latter is more than the former, that's unfortunate. The only subtle point is that you cannot have less than 1 hp per hit die, regardless of your Con score. If a Wiz 2 has 5hp (max) and Con 10, he has 2hp (max) even if he's at Con 2. If he's taken 4 points of damage, though, he'll be conscious at Con 10 (1hp) and unconscious at Con 2 (-2hp).
jaelis 01-23-06, 09:34 PM	If it helps, here's the glossary definition of temporary hit points: Hit points gained for a limited time through certain spells (such as aid) and magical effects. When a character with temporary hit points is dealt damage, deduct the damage from temporary hit points first, then deduct any remaining damage (if any) to the character's actual (nontemporary) hit points. Temporary hit points can cause a character's hit point total to exceed its normal maximum.
Rulebook 01-24-06, 07:04 AM	the hit points gained while raging are real, its the CON score thats temporary. adujustments to hp are made because of a con increase, the same as if you had a +4 con boost item, and exactly like taking CON damage from poision or something.
AJP 01-24-06, 08:20 AM	When gaining a level you get at least 1 HP regardles of how low your con may be. So i would conclude that loss of con can never bring you below 1 HP/level. You would still suffer from having a con of 0.
DarknessEternal 01-24-06, 09:44 AM	Lowering of Con can't bring your total hit points lower than 1 per hit die. However, the actual damage you've suffered still applies, which means you can die from the lowering of your total hit points.
djinni 01-24-06, 02:25 PM	They are not defined as temporary hit points. Indeed, the description of Barbarian Rage takes pains to explicitly point out that these added hit points are different from "temporary hitpoints". When your Con changes---for whatever reason---your actual hit points change. The amount of damage you have taken does not change, though, and if the latter is more than the former, that's unfortunate. The only subtle point is that you cannot have less than 1 hp per hit die, regardless of your Con score. If a Wiz 2 has 5hp (max) and Con 10, he has 2hp (max) even if he's at Con 2. If he's taken 4 points of damage, though, he'll be conscious at Con 10 (1hp) and unconscious at Con 2 (-2hp). I'll re read them but I remeber it saying these hitpoints are not lost first like other temporary hitpoints. only defining how they are lost. I"ll look for that rule about never being at less than 1hp/lvl from con loss, that's prolly the one I'm looking for, you woulnd't happen to know which book would you?
Merestil Haye 01-24-06, 02:42 PM	I'll re read them but I remeber it saying these hitpoints are not lost first like other temporary hitpoints. only defining how they are lost. I"ll look for that rule about never being at less than 1hp/lvl from con loss, that's prolly the one I'm looking for, you woulnd't happen to know which book would you?It does not say "other temporarty hit points" in the Rage ability description. Which means that the increased hit points are not temporary hit points. The rule about a minimum hp increase per HD is in the PHB, under the discussion of the Constitution ability. According to the SRD You apply your character’s Constitution modifier to: * Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he or she advances in level). Hope that helps.
djinni 01-24-06, 03:20 PM	The rule about a minimum hp increase per HD is in the PHB, under the discussion of the Constitution ability. According to the SRD that's just for gaining hit points...not losing them. will check out the barbarian rage ability as well.
jaelis 01-24-06, 03:32 PM	But the idea is that when your Con changes, you recalculate your hp as if you'd had the new Con all along. It's not like your hp only change if your Con happens to be different at the moment you level up. So if a Con 12, level 5 wizard rolled (4, 1, 2, 4, 1) on her d4's for her levels, she would normally have 17 hp. If a Con 6 level 5 wizard had rolled the same thing, she would have 7 hp (2 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 1). If the otherwise healthy Con 12 wizard gets hit with -6 Con ability damage, her hp would drop to 7, not to 2. She should have the same hp the Con 6 wizard has normally. Edit: If your argument were right, that you only applied the Con modifier when you actually rolled the new hit die, then why would your hp change at all when your Con changes?
djinni 01-24-06, 03:48 PM	Edit: If your argument were right, that you only applied the Con modifier when you actually rolled the new hit die, then why would your hp change at all when your Con changes? that wasn't my argument, all the items brought are the general way of playing at take common sense to utilize. I'm still searching for the written rule. which may have already been stated (hence I said so in my previous post)
ShinAkuma2 01-24-06, 07:31 PM	Increases in Constitution Score and Current Hit Points An increase in a character’s Constitution score, even a temporary one, can give her more hit points (an effective hit point increase), but these are not temporary hit points. They can be restored and they are not lost first as temporary hit points are. The barbarian gains HP because his Con rises. When the Con goes away, the hit points go away. Why is there even a discussion?
Nom 01-24-06, 08:36 PM	DMG pg 298 (I think, it's the "ability score" section in the DMG "glossary") mentions that a (living) character will always have at least 1 hp per HD regardless of Con modifier. From the context and examples, it's quite clear that they're talking about "fully healed" hit points. Thus, a 10 HD creature with no damage and Con 1 will always have at least 10 hp, and may have more depending on HD and rolls. Any change in your Con modifier will always affect your current in the same hp. It would have been slightly clearer had they written the rules as "hp and damage" (thus you go unconscious when damage exceeds hp) rather than "fully healed hp" and "current hp", but the effect is the same. HP gained or lost by Con changes are "real" hp. Temporary hp are completely different. They are a sort of ablative hp in addition to your real hp, granted by certain magic abilities. I don't actually understand the reference to "loss of temporary hp cannot result in you dying". Where is this rule? Is it actually saying anything more profound than "these are bonus hp; you can lose them without affecting your real hp"?
Nephlite 01-24-06, 10:27 PM	Any change in your Con modifier will always affect your current in the same hp. It would have been slightly clearer had they written the rules as "hp and damage" (thus you go unconscious when damage exceeds hp) rather than "fully healed hp" and "current hp", but the effect is the same. HP gained or lost by Con changes are "real" hp. Exactly. So if you real hps are -8 but your rage increases you hps by 10. When rages is gone you fall to -8. Temporary hp are completely different. They are a sort of ablative hp in addition to your real hp, granted by certain magic abilities. I don't actually understand the reference to "loss of temporary hp cannot result in you dying". Where is this rule? Is it actually saying anything more profound than "these are bonus hp; you can lose them without affecting your real hp"? This is saying. You have 10 hps. You cast False life and gain 10. When the Temp hps go away from time you don't have 0. They never affect your real hps. They do protect your real hps though. If you have False life on while dying: you'd lose temp hps first (which can be useful).
ShinAkuma2 01-24-06, 10:35 PM	I don't actually understand the reference to "loss of temporary hp cannot result in you dying". Where is this rule? Is it actually saying anything more profound than "these are bonus hp; you can lose them without affecting your real hp"? It would be the same as saying "the next X damage you take doesn't count," or "is reduced to zero" except for the fact that it could spark arguments over whether or not certain effects would work (ex Stunning Fist, poison). With the current language, yes those things work, but your HP doesn't go anywhere. Since those temporary HP go away first, you can never die from losing them. You'll either have X + temp, then go to X when they go away, or be at X + temp, then X - spillover damage after all the temp. hit points are sucked away. The worst that could happen is, you're at -9, you're given a certain number of temp. hit points, then they vanish before you get healed, so you're dropped to -9 again.
Nom 01-25-06, 05:16 PM	I'm more trying to figure where the line "temporary hitpoints being lost cannot result in you dying" comes from (beyond the OP's post). PH pg 314 has rules for temporary hp, and includes no such comment.
Wayfarer 01-25-06, 07:04 PM	Temporary Hit Point loss can result in you dying, it just takes some rules gymnastics to get to that point. At least, that's my interpretation. In most situations you'll have normal HP left when you run out of Temp HP, but it is possible. Now if I can just think of an example. Let's say Wally the Wizard is 10th level and has 10 Con. He will have 10d4+0 hit points, for an average of 2.5 HP per level. Wally has 25 HP. Wally is out adventuring and is surprised by a Large Monstrous Scorpion. He is hit by a full round's worth of attacks (claw, claw, sting) before the party fighter kills the beastie, and suffers 22 damage, but makes his save against the scorpion's poison. Wally has 3 HP left (25 base, -22 Damage) Wally casts false life on himself, and gains 15 temporary HP. He and the party go on their merry way. Wally is now at 18 HP. (25 base, -22 damage, +15 temporary) A minute later, Wally has to make a save against the scorpion's venom. He rolls a 1. Unlucky! Worse still, he takes the maximum of 4 Constitution damage from the poison, lowering his constution to a measly 6, and causing him to lose 2 hit points per level. This lowers his base HP to the minimum of 1 per hit die. Wally now has just 1 HP left. (10 base, -22 damage, +15 temporary) Only the temporary hit points are keeping him alive. Before he can be healed, Wally takes 11 more points of damage from a trap. His total HP is now at -10 (10 base, -33 damage, +15 temporary), leaving him dead. Wally just died from losing temporary HP, didn't he?
Temo Vryce 01-25-06, 07:55 PM	Ok let me try and make sense of this mess. No offense to those that have posted before me. Kragg Lvl 1 Barbarian. Con score 10 HPs 12 Notice that he doesn't have a positive or negative Con Modifier. This is to make the explination easier. Now Kragg is facing some Goblins. In the first round Kragg Rages and his new Con score becomes Con 14. Thus he now has HPs 14. Kragg attacks a Goblin killing it. The remaining Goblins attack Kragg dealing 13 points of Damage over the next 3 rounds. Before Kragg's Rage wears off he has 14 - 13 = 1 HP. At the Begining of Kragg's turn his Rage wears off, removing his +4 Con Bonus and thus the +2 HPs he gained from Raging. Now Kragg is at -1 HPs and is dying, not to mention at the mercy of the remaining Goblins. The hitpoint gained from Raging are not Temporary the Constitution bonus is temporary. Spell such as Aid grant temporary Hitpoints and label them as such. Hitpoints gained from a Temporary are just as normal as if the constitution bonus wasn't Temporary. These function just like those granted by the spell endurance or an amulet of health. Once the spell wears off or the amulet is removed the Constitution score is reduced to it's unmodified value and the hitpoints gained are now removed as well. If this would reduce the character below 0 they are Dead or Dying. I hope that this helps to take some of the confusion out of the Rage ability.
jaelis 01-25-06, 10:05 PM	Temporary Hit Point loss can result in you dying, it just takes some rules gymnastics to get to that point. At least, that's my interpretation. In most situations you'll have normal HP left when you run out of Temp HP, but it is possible. Now if I can just think of an example. Let's say Wally the Wizard is 10th level and has 10 Con. He will have 10d4+0 hit points, for an average of 2.5 HP per level. Wally has 25 HP. Wally is out adventuring and is surprised by a Large Monstrous Scorpion. He is hit by a full round's worth of attacks (claw, claw, sting) before the party fighter kills the beastie, and suffers 22 damage, but makes his save against the scorpion's poison. Wally has 3 HP left (25 base, -22 Damage) Wally casts false life on himself, and gains 15 temporary HP. He and the party go on their merry way. Wally is now at 18 HP. (25 base, -22 damage, +15 temporary) A minute later, Wally has to make a save against the scorpion's venom. He rolls a 1. Unlucky! Worse still, he takes the maximum of 4 Constitution damage from the poison, lowering his constution to a measly 6, and causing him to lose 2 hit points per level. This lowers his base HP to the minimum of 1 per hit die. Wally now has just 1 HP left. (10 base, -22 damage, +15 temporary) Only the temporary hit points are keeping him alive. Before he can be healed, Wally takes 11 more points of damage from a trap. His total HP is now at -10 (10 base, -33 damage, +15 temporary), leaving him dead. Wally just died from losing temporary HP, didn't he? Heh, nice. So you can die from losing temp hp. But something's weird toward the end of your example... After the initial scorpion attack, Wally's at 18 A minute later, the poison drops is base hp to 10. Then he should be at 3 hp total: 10 base, -22 damage, +15 temporary = 3, not 1. Anyway, isn't the point that if Wally now gets nailed by a dispel magic, his 15 temporary hp will go away, leaving him at -12 (and thus dead)? I don't see where the trap comes in.