Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Guildmaster 09-23-05, 08:49 PM	Deadly: Deadly weapons increase their critiacl multiplier by 1 (ex a short sword has a critical multiplier of x2 therfore a deady short sword would have a x3 ect.) Price + 3 bonus rate this and tell me what you think of the pricing
TekknoMancer 09-24-05, 04:01 AM	I would suggest having the price depend on the natural threat range, but since keen is always +1, maybe it should just be the same for all weapons. This would be quite deadly if placed on a x4 weapon (such as a pick) to give x5. Also quite effective on 18-20 weapons.
Ipsissimus 09-24-05, 04:09 AM	Kinda takes the thunder away from the wpn master PrC when you could just buy the enchantment...imo increasing a multiplier by 1 step seems more +5...because a wpn master with this bonus could make something x6 if he used something that was x4. otherwise I forsee you fighting a lot of plants and undead.
Teydyn 09-24-05, 07:34 AM	Deadly: Deadly weapons increase their critiacl multiplier by 1 (ex a short sword has a critical multiplier of x2 therfore a deady short sword would have a x3 ect.) Price + 3 bonus rate this and tell me what you think of the pricing Not good this way. Just look at some weapons. Rapier 18-20, *2, 3 times extra damage -> 18-20, *3, 6 times extra damage Scythe 20, *4, 3 times extra damage -> 20, *5, 4 times extra damage So its bad on high multiplier, but good on high crit range weapons. If you really want something like that change it to: new Crit multiplier x*2 -1 Rapier 18-20, *2, 3 times extra damage -> 18-20, *3, 6 times extra damage Scythe 20, *4, 3 times extra damage -> 20, *7, 6 times extra damage Both weapons are comparable again. Oh, and you should not allow it with either keen weapon enchant nor improved critical feat IMO.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 09-24-05, 10:16 AM	As is, it's weak. I once wrote up a feat designed to increase the critical multiplier. It could be easily translated over to a +1 enhancement. I'll see if I can find it.
Guildmaster 09-24-05, 11:35 AM	Kinda takes the thunder away from the wpn master PrC when you could just buy the enchantment...imo increasing a multiplier by 1 step seems more +5...because a wpn master with this bonus could make something x6 if he used something that was x4. otherwise I forsee you fighting a lot of plants and undead. i hate them! lol my character rapier was keen with IMrpoved cirt but he got scrwed over by the dm bescause the campaign was undead-ly lol
bondious 09-24-05, 02:53 PM	I'd say that a Deadly weapon should have a range: +1 if applied to a x2 critical weapon (making it x3) +2 if applied to a x3 critical weapon (making it x4) +3 if applied to a x4 critical weapon (making it x5) Also, this enhancement should NOT stack with other effects that increase a weapon's damage mulitplier, like the Weapon Master Prestige Class...just like Keen and Improved Critical do not stack. Other than that, I like the idea and am thinking of incorperating it into my games. :clap:
G.S.Dickerson 09-24-05, 10:13 PM	I'd say that a Deadly weapon should have a range: +1 if applied to a x2 critical weapon (making it x3) +2 if applied to a x3 critical weapon (making it x4) +3 if applied to a x4 critical weapon (making it x5) I don't like this at all. I think a greatsword (x2) is better than a pick (x4), now its cheaper to make the better weapon even better. I think it should be the same on all weapons. You are still just getting 1 extra multiplier no matter what.
Rogue Newb 09-24-05, 10:21 PM	I think it's balanced with keen. I didn't do the math but they both have the same kinda potential.
Maraxus 09-24-05, 10:41 PM	G.S.Dickerson: One "+" for you for a good feeling. Teydyn: One big "+++" for your math. Nice to see something like that here - it's rare. :) The others: Why is math so complicaded that no one seems to understand it. The critical potential of a weapon is it's damage * thread range * additional times damage is dealt. Simple :rolleyes: Teydyn said it. Through I see that not everybody needs to know this, there is no reason to they something else, after he has posted it... ...Well, one could say, that a weapon that does x7 times damage on a critical could increase the luck factor of the game to much (or in mathematic terms: The variance is to big). One the other hand ... what is the problem with that? ;) If you are making that feat of +1 critical mod, be aware, that this feat favores long threat range weapons over high mod weapons (*). Even if you price it after the best case, 18-20, however, +3 is to much. From the average damage increase, I would say it should be +2 if it stacks with improved critical or keen, or +1 if it doesn't. *g* Deadly, keen scimitar of ... flaming burst. :D Hey, this would be awsome. Still, it would deal slightly less damage then a flaming, shocking instead of the burst - unless you also allow keen and improved critical to stack. Edit: (*): This could make you also invent a weapon ability that works equally better on big critcal multiplier weapons.
Vaelan 09-25-05, 01:18 AM	I'd say that a Deadly weapon should have a range: +1 if applied to a x2 critical weapon (making it x3) +2 if applied to a x3 critical weapon (making it x4) +3 if applied to a x4 critical weapon (making it x5) Also, this enhancement should NOT stack with other effects that increase a weapon's damage mulitplier, like the Weapon Master Prestige Class...just like Keen and Improved Critical do not stack. Other than that, I like the idea and am thinking of incorperating it into my games. :clap: You have it all wrong. First of all, threat ranges are what you should be concerned about and not critical multipliers. Second of all, you are pricing it higher for weapons it has less of an overall effect on. Teydyn has the right idea. Anything other than what he posted will alter the balance between weapons with high threat ranges and weapons with high critical multipliers.
bondious 09-25-05, 03:30 AM	You have it all wrong. First of all, threat ranges are what you should be concerned about and not critical multipliers. Second of all, you are pricing it higher for weapons it has less of an overall effect on. Teydyn has the right idea. Anything other than what he posted will alter the balance between weapons with high threat ranges and weapons with high critical multipliers. I have it "all wrong"? Wow, damn... :weep: Okay, I'm better now! :D I'm sorry I misspoke, Vaelan. Next time I will have to put in big, bold letters THIS IS MERELY ME BRAINSTORMING above any and all of my posts. Hell, probably from now on, so I won't be "all wrong" again. Just out of curiosity, Vaelan, was I "all wrong" when I said "Also, this enhancement should NOT stack with other effects that increase a weapon's damage mulitplier, like the Weapon Master Prestige Class...just like Keen and Improved Critical do not stack."? What would be the "right" answer, then, since I was "all wrong"??? :confused:
G.S.Dickerson 09-25-05, 04:15 AM	I have it "all wrong"? Wow, damn... :weep: Okay, I'm better now! :D I'm sorry I misspoke, Vaelan. Next time I will have to put in big, bold letters THIS IS MERELY ME BRAINSTORMING above any and all of my posts. Hell, probably from now on, so I won't be "all wrong" again. Just out of curiosity, Vaelan, was I "all wrong" when I said "Also, this enhancement should NOT stack with other effects that increase a weapon's damage mulitplier, like the Weapon Master Prestige Class...just like Keen and Improved Critical do not stack."? What would be the "right" answer, then, since I was "all wrong"??? :confused: Chill out. It's not that big of a deal, I'm sure you're always "all wrong". :teach:
Vaelan 09-25-05, 04:47 AM	Just out of curiosity, Vaelan, was I "all wrong" when I said "Also, this enhancement should NOT stack with other effects that increase a weapon's damage mulitplier, like the Weapon Master Prestige Class...just like Keen and Improved Critical do not stack."? What would be the "right" answer, then, since I was "all wrong"??? I was just being lazy and didn't bother to quote you properly. I meant that as a response to your pricing guide for the enchantment. However, I would say that you're wrong about that too. First of all, Keen and Improved Critical should stack. There is no reason in either mechanics or flavor that they shouldn't. Further, there is no problem with multiple effects that enhance one's critical multiplier stacking if you use Teydyn's suggestion for how critical multiplier increases should work. Using the system that most people, including the designers of the Kensai class and all of the derivations thereof (Weapon Master, Psychic Weapon Master, etc.), come up with, there is a problem with critical multiplier increases. They affect weapons in an inconsistant manner and thus create an imbalance between them where there wasn't one before. Adding in threat range increases exacerbates the problem. However, if you change all critical multiplier enhancing abilities to what Teydyn suggested, there isn't really any problem with allowing Keen, Improved Critical, Improved Multiplier, and a weapon enchantment that alters the multiplier all at the same time. I think it bears mentioning that when I say "there isn't any problem", I mean it won't make one type of weapon better than another. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want to use four critical effects at the same time like that. A falchion that is 2d4 12-20/x4 or a scythe that is 2d4 18-20/x10 might be problematic, though I haven't done the math yet. ;)
bondious 09-25-05, 12:04 PM	First of all, Keen and Improved Critical should stack. There is no reason in either mechanics or flavor that they shouldn't. The thing is, though, that in this 3.5 system they DON'T stack, whether you or I or anyone else likes it or not. I agree, though, that it would be problematic. Still, there are some things to be done about it. There could be a cap on how much a critical multiplier can be, like maybe x5 at the utmost. I only really suggested that they don't stack because people will use the standard system of critical threat ranges and critical multipliers, and (sometimes) need to be saved from themselves when it comes to cheezy combinations that produce imbalanced weapons. Example: the 3.0 rules combining Improved Critical with Keen, and you would have a Rapier scoring a threat on a 12-20. Now, if you were to let people have the Deadly enhancement as well as the bonus from the Weapons Master Prestige Class, and EVERYTHING stacked, that guy's Rapier would read something like 12-20/x4...and that would be a pretty tempting thing for for some players. (like my girlfriend, :rolleyes: ) I think that's why the designers re-ruled that Keen and Improved Critical should not stack, however illogical that is, and in keeping with that ideal (and the rules) I was just thinking that this new Deadly enhancement should follow suit. That's all. Chill out. It's not that big of a deal, I'm sure you're always "all wrong". :teach: I am chilled out, and was so when I wrote that. I was merely illustrating a point that the useage of "all wrong" seemed kinda disrespectful and that I didn't appreciate it. I come on these boards and respond to people's posts and TRY to have an air of civility, courteousness and respect. I don't just go around shooting people's ideas and opinions down, and I try to be as constructive and helpful as possible. I try not to engage in arguements... ...and it would be nice to have the same treatment from others, that's all. :allalone:
Thelon Fairblade 09-26-05, 11:24 AM	So the chart shoul dbe something more like this: Threat Range: 20, Bonus Cost: +1 Threat Range: 19-20, Bonus Cost: +2 Threat Range: 18-20, Bonus Cost: +3 according to base weapon, not skill of wielder or other enchantments, or alternate materials (if used). Scimitar is base 18-20, so Deadly is a +3 enchantment. Pick is base 20, so Deadly is a +1 enchantment.... even in the hands of an Improved Critical (Pick) wielder, and the weapon is made of baatoran greensteel (+1 crit range), and the Keen enchantment stacks due to house rule.
TekknoMancer 09-26-05, 01:07 PM	Although I understand why keen and imp. crit don't stack, I think it is very poor game design. If fighter X is wielding a keen weapon, a feat that he had to spend is made worthless. It REALLY bothers me that a +1 enhancement supercedes a feat. I really don't see 12-20 threat ranges as broken...remember that the attack roll must still hit and must still be confirmed as a crit. A 12-20x4 weapon (or 18-20x10), however, would be downright scary. At least vorpal doesn't work on any crit anymore, that was crazy... My proposed solution: --Deadly increases multiplier to (original)x2 - 1, thus making a x2 -> x3, x3 -> x5, x4 -> x7. This is to follow the mechanic of keen in that the original amount is doubled. --A weapon can only have keen or deadly, but not both (and deadly is +1 to match keen) --If a weapon has deadly, improved critical works normally. --If a weapon has keen, improved critical works as the deadly enhancement. --This results in 15-20x3 and 19-20x7, but at least no feats are superceded With just keen, deadly, and imp. crit things are still relatively simple. I'm not sure if there are feats that increase the multiplier, though I know of a few PrCs. Therein is the trouble: these extra threat ranges and multipliers are NOT free and are paid for with feats and PrC levels, and should therefore provide SOME type of bonus. Perhaps any additional abilities beyond one threat range doubling should give a bonus to confirming the crit, and abilities that increase the multiplier give extra damage. Thus each additional +1 to threat range is instead a +2 bonus to confirm the crit (original roll must still be a hit), and each additional +1 to multiplier is +1D6 damage on a crit.
Vaelan 09-26-05, 10:38 PM	The thing is, though, that in this 3.5 system they DON'T stack, whether you or I or anyone else likes it or not. The core rules had nothing to do with my statement of value in that particular instance as they aren't my standard of correctness. Still, there are some things to be done about it. There could be a cap on how much a critical multiplier can be, like maybe x5 at the utmost. This would still be an extremely poor rule as it would break the balance between weapons with high threat ranges and weapons with high critical multipliers, which is the primary problem with this idea. Example: the 3.0 rules combining Improved Critical with Keen, and you would have a Rapier scoring a threat on a 12-20. Now, if you were to let people have the Deadly enhancement as well as the bonus from the Weapons Master Prestige Class, and EVERYTHING stacked, that guy's Rapier would read something like 12-20/x4...and that would be a pretty tempting thing for for some players. (like my girlfriend, ) I wouldn't be too concerned about that unless you've banned the Wizard and Sorcerer entirely since, by the time you can do this all of three times per day, they're much better at dealing damage and are far more potent in non-combat situations as well. ...in keeping with that ideal (and the rules) I was just thinking that this new Deadly enhancement should follow suit. It would be a good idea if you actually believe that allowing Keen and Improved Critical to stack meaningfully affects the game. Of course, if you believe that allowing Improved Critical and Keen to stack meaningfully affects the game, you should be doubly opposed to this stacking with Improved Critical or Keen since it has exactly twice the effect. Since both reason and play-testing indicate that Improved Critical and Keen stacking does not meaningfully affect the game, I would be inclined to disagree that this ability should follow suit. Using a flawed ideal as precedent seems like a very unwise decision to me. I was merely illustrating a point that the useage of "all wrong" seemed kinda disrespectful and that I didn't appreciate it. You're attaching an implication to it that was in no way intended and thus I am not particularly sympathetic. I come on these boards and respond to people's posts and TRY to have an air of civility, courteousness and respect. I try to help people. Sometimes part of helping people is telling them that they're wrong. I don't just go around shooting people's ideas and opinions down, and I try to be as constructive and helpful as possible. I go around shooting people's ideas and opinions down when they are factually or logically incorrect. Further, I believe my duties of being helpful and constructive were fufilled as I told you why you were wrong and what you could do differently. So the chart shoul dbe something more like this: Threat Range: 20, Bonus Cost: +1 Threat Range: 19-20, Bonus Cost: +2 Threat Range: 18-20, Bonus Cost: +3 according to base weapon, not skill of wielder or other enchantments, or alternate materials (if used). Scimitar is base 18-20, so Deadly is a +3 enchantment. Pick is base 20, so Deadly is a +1 enchantment.... even in the hands of an Improved Critical (Pick) wielder, and the weapon is made of baatoran greensteel (+1 crit range), and the Keen enchantment stacks due to house rule. Deadly's effect on a scimitar is no greater than that of Keen's. Further, since Keen is priced at +1 even though it affects different weapons to varying degrees based on how heavily they depend on critical hits to deal damage, a constant bonus would be appropriate for this as well. My version of this ability would be as follows... Deadly: This ability enhances the critical multiplier of a weapon. The weapon's new critical multiplier is equal to twice its base multiplier minus one. For instance, if it were applied to a scythe (which has a normal critical multiplier of 4), the deadly scythe deals 7 times as much damage on a successful critical hit. This benefit does not stack with any effect that increases your threat range or critical multiplier. Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Vaelan's Weapon Deadlyifier (of Awesomeness!); Price +1 bonus. This is mechanically identical to Keen, as "Vaelan's Weapon Deadlyifier (of Awesomeness!)" is also a Sor/Wiz 3 spell. I would allow Keen, Improved Critical, Deadly, and other such modifiers to stack and make Keen and Deadly each +2 bonuses, but I realize that I am probably in the minority here and thus my version of the Deadly ability does not reflect this.
bondious 09-27-05, 01:04 AM	I was merely illustrating a point that the useage of "all wrong" seemed kinda disrespectful and that I didn't appreciate it. You're attaching an implication to it that was in no way intended and thus I am not particularly sympathetic. I come on these boards and respond to people's posts and TRY to have an air of civility, courteousness and respect. I try to help people. Sometimes part of helping people is telling them that they're wrong. I don't just go around shooting people's ideas and opinions down, and I try to be as constructive and helpful as possible. I go around shooting people's ideas and opinions down when they are factually or logically incorrect. Further, I believe my duties of being helpful and constructive were fufilled as I told you why you were wrong and what you could do differently. So, Vaelan, from the way you respond and the manner of those responses, MY OPINION of you (along with quite a few others on these boards) is that you are uncivil, have no courtesy and are disrespectful. I suppose you TRY and be helpful, but only to what YOU think is right. But how is it that I can be WRONG about this subject, Vaelan, when there IS NO "Deadly" enhancement bonus in the rules? There ARE NO rules for this thing, so ANY RULES that ANY of us come up with CANNOT be wrong, because there is no "official" rulling for this. THAT is the problem I'm having with you. You go around saying crap like "you're all wrong" when YOU CANNOT be right YOURSELF! EVERYTHING you say about ANY NEW rule/idea/item/etc that IS NOT in the OFFICIAL RULES is merely YOUR OPINION! The same goes for me, and for people like TekknoMancer and Guildmaster and everyone else on this board. Hell, NOBODY ELSE here, on this board, seems to feel the need to be RUDE, so WHY do YOU? YOU don't have ANY cause, rhyme or reason to be saying that ANYONE on THIS SPECIFIC BOARD (or any other board with an original idea) is wrong about ANYTHING, dude! So if you got an opinion then GREAT, but keep it in the realm of civility and respect, and don't harp on people so much that have a differing point of view. ...end of rant. Sorry everyone, for my outburst, but I just get REAL sick of people pulling that kinda stuff. I understand Vaelan's point of view, and even agree about most of it, but I just feel this huge amount of disrespect when I was merely brainstorming out the idea. Thank you. P.S. ~ Thelon Fairblade, I like your chart, there, and was going to suggest that SAME THING, but you beat me to it. Right on...that's the one I'm going to go with, right or wrong, no matter WHAT people like Vaelan say or think...beacuse I feel this is right. :)
TekknoMancer 09-27-05, 01:52 PM	Normally I wouldn't take issue with this, but since I have to scroll through a bunch of quoted text, you two (Vaelan and Bondious) should really save your off-topic bickering for PMs.
bondious 09-27-05, 05:07 PM	Normally I wouldn't take issue with this, but since I have to scroll through a bunch of quoted text, you two (Vaelan and Bondious) should really save your off-topic bickering for PMs. Yer probably right, Tekkno, and I will. I'm done with this topic, and I appologize again to all.