Dealing with some ranged weapon issues [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dealing with some ranged weapon issues [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lanathan
09-01-05, 10:02 AM Okay, first off I am new to 3.5, havent played since the mid 90s in 2nd edition. Recently, I got a bunch of people interested in playing D&D and so we are all learning to use 3.5 as we go. So my apologizes ahead of time if these questions are very newbish.

Issue 1- Magical ranged weapons and magical ammo, are the bonuses supposed to stack? If you shot a +3 arrow from a +4 longbow is it intended to be a total of +7, or is it supposed to be +5(highest mod a magic can get), or is it the higher of the 2 bonuses which would be +4? I am thinking this may be one of those DM call type issues, but looking to see if there is any actual rules about it before calling it one way or another.

Issue 2- In our party, we have a ranger who has put pretty much all of his feats/gold/magical items into being a crackshot archer. Sometimes, he will be in melee range of a creature in combat and when a ranged weapon is fired at that range, the creature gets an attack of opportunity. Well, after reading the combat section of the PH very throughly, he determined that all he has to do is take a 5 foot step backwards at the beginning of his combat round and then take all his attacks. The creature no longer gets attacks of opportunity for the attacks because the ranger is out of the threat range and he only moved a 5 foot step which does not provoke an attack... Are we doing this correctly is my question? It doesnt seem right that moving 5 feet and shooting after moving doesnt provoke an attack, while if he backed out 20 feet to be near another a party member and shot once, he would have been attacked for leaving the threatened area. I mean, how does a creature know if your going to move only 5 or 20, but the time you move more than 5, you literally would be out its range anyway unless it has a greater reach.

Thanks for any feedback on these issues. :)
Ithandor
09-01-05, 10:08 AM Issue 1- Magical ranged weapons and magical ammo, are the bonuses supposed to stack? If you shot a +3 arrow from a +4 longbow is it intended to be a total of +7, or is it supposed to be +5(highest mod a magic can get), or is it the higher of the 2 bonuses which would be +4? I am thinking this may be one of those DM call type issues, but looking to see if there is any actual rules about it before calling it one way or another.
You use only the greatest bonus; they do not stack. In this case you would use the +4 from the longbow.

Issue 2- In our party, we have a ranger who has put pretty much all of his feats/gold/magical items into being a crackshot archer. Sometimes, he will be in melee range of a creature in combat and when a ranged weapon is fired at that range, the creature gets an attack of opportunity. Well, after reading the combat section of the PH very throughly, he determined that all he has to do is take a 5 foot step backwards at the beginning of his combat round and then take all his attacks. The creature no longer gets attacks of opportunity for the attacks because the ranger is out of the threat range and he only moved a 5 foot step which does not provoke an attack... Are we doing this correctly is my question? It doesnt seem right that moving 5 feet and shooting after moving doesnt provoke an attack, while if he backed out 20 feet to be near another a party member and shot once, he would have been attacked for leaving the threatened area. I mean, how does a creature know if your going to move only 5 or 20, but the time you move more than 5, you literally would be out its range anyway unless it has a greater reach.

You are doing it correctly. You can take a 5ft step and then full attack safely (disregarding the possibility of extended reach). This topic has been discussed many times, but it is the way the rules are written AND intended. Bear in mind that if the archer does this, his foe can simply 5ft step next round and full attack the archer. It works both ways ;)

Ithandor
Bopple
09-01-05, 10:08 AM 1. The highest of the two; +4.
But weapon special abilities stack. For example, if you shoot +1 shocking arrow with a +2 flaming bow, the result is +2 flaming, shocking.

2. Yes, that's one of advantages big monsters get, compared to humanoids.
pres_man
09-01-05, 10:35 AM 1: As the others have said, you take the highest value, but abilities do stack. Now in 3rd edition (not 3.5) they did stack and so you would have had a +7.

2: Don't think of it as a 5' step, so much as a 5' adjustment. You are being careful, because you know you'll only be moving 5'. On the other hand if you were to move back 20', you'd know it and would have to think about not tripping or something, which means you'd be distract and leave yourself open to attacks. That is what an AoO is, an attack when someone is distracted. If you can stay focused, you shouldn't draw AoO. AoO happen when someone "messes up", not when they act in a strategic fashion.

Believe me, the 5' adjustment is one of the most desirable things in the game for PCs and NPCs.
Inigo Carmine
09-01-05, 10:42 AM I mean, how does a creature know if your going to move only 5 or 20, but the time you move more than 5, you literally would be out its range anyway unless it has a greater reach.

An Attack of opportunity isn't something the creature realizes and makes an extra swing for. It happens when the opponent drops his guard (for whatever reason) and the creature now has a higher chance of hitting his enemy.

The way you move when you move 20 ft isn't particularly defensive (barring things that make it so, like tumbling). The way you move when you're only slowly moving 5ft is a much more defensible movement, hence your guard isn't significantly dropped, and no AoO is provoked.

=============

Being able to 5-ft step back may seem slightly unrealistic, but it's very much balanced. First off, it is easily countered by things like flanking/surrounding/cornering against a wall or obstacle (you might be able to 5 ft step, but there's no available unthreatened squares), tripping, disarming, sundering, grappling, etc. Remember non-melee weapons get a penalty to try and keep out of harms way during a disarm/sunder attampt, and because a bow doesn't threaten, the meleer can attempt more risky manuevers without the drawback of an AoO.

As someone else said, after he 5-ft steps back and attacks, its your turn to do the same. The archer should be easier to hit, and be doing less damage than you in a full attack. His advantage is that he can almost always full attack, and doesn't need to close with the enemy. Once you also close and have the ability to make a full attack, the archer has just lost his advantages.

Also, i think of the ability to 5-ft step back and full attack as payback for hitpoints. Realistically the archer should be SOL once you close with him. But realistically, you should have been SOL long before you ever covered the 60 ft between him and you.
tarkin
09-01-05, 10:56 AM Agreeing with the above posters, but throwing in some more information.

1) Non-identical enchantments do work together. So instead of buying +4 arrows for your +3 bow, try this:.

+3 bow, and buy 10 +1 holy arrows, 10 +1 Axiomatic arrows, 10 +1 Anarchic arrows, 10 +1 Brilliant arrows, 10 +1 Construct bane arrows.

2) Do not think of it as quickly taking a 5ft step and taking a full attack action. Instead think of it as slowly moving 5ft back, taking extra long to do this to negate an AoO, then taking your full attack action.
Nom
09-01-05, 07:21 PM Although the archer can negate AoOs with a 5 ft. step (assuming the terrain and tactical situation is favourable), remember that he also cannot make them as he does not threaten. What an archer in melee combat really fears is being flanked - if there's an opponent on each side (orthogonally) they get a +2 to-hit and he cannot 5 ft. step out of range. And the inability to take AoOs makes it easier to flank him and makes him vulnerable to special attacks (especially trip and sunder).
Nephlite
09-01-05, 07:57 PM Although the archer can negate AoOs with a 5 ft. step (assuming the terrain and tactical situation is favourable), remember that he also cannot make them as he does not threaten. What an archer in melee combat really fears is being flanked - if there's an opponent on each side (orthogonally) they get a +2 to-hit and he cannot 5 ft. step out of range. And the inability to take AoOs makes it easier to flank him and makes him vulnerable to special attacks (especially trip and sunder).

The archer should buy Spiked armor (cost 50 gold). Armor spikes can used to threaten. It does help when emies get to close so you can Attack of opportunity them. (priceless)
Colmarr
09-01-05, 10:37 PM 1) Non-identical enchantments do work together. So instead of buying +4 arrows for your +3 bow, try this:.

+3 bow, and buy 10 +1 holy arrows, 10 +1 Axiomatic arrows, 10 +1 Anarchic arrows, 10 +1 Brilliant arrows, 10 +1 Construct bane arrows.

Are you suggesting the arrows would come out +4 {insert special ability here} arrows, or +3 {insert special ability} arrows?

I assume you mean the latter (which is correct), but the wording of your post was unclear.
FlameLover
09-01-05, 11:01 PM Obviously I didn't post it but yes, that would appear to be the intent. Buying/using arrows with a higher enhancment than +1 is just plain stupid since if you splash out on a good bow you won't need to! I'd just get a +whatever you can afford bow with things like keen, speed, etc. (not sure if you CAN put speed on a bow but w/e) and have arrows of +1 good, evil, lawful, chaotic, fire, ice, sonic, electric, acid, bane... if you have 5-10 of all those types you'll be able to take done nearly ANYTHING!
TLStarfighter
09-02-05, 04:46 PM Obviously I didn't post it but yes, that would appear to be the intent. Buying/using arrows with a higher enhancment than +1 is just plain stupid since if you splash out on a good bow you won't need to! I'd just get a +whatever you can afford bow with things like keen, speed, etc. (not sure if you CAN put speed on a bow but w/e) and have arrows of +1 good, evil, lawful, chaotic, fire, ice, sonic, electric, acid, bane... if you have 5-10 of all those types you'll be able to take done nearly ANYTHING!

Alternatively have someone cast Greater Magic Weapon on your quiver of arrows and get a bow with interesting enchantments.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lanathan 09-01-05, 10:02 AM	Okay, first off I am new to 3.5, havent played since the mid 90s in 2nd edition. Recently, I got a bunch of people interested in playing D&D and so we are all learning to use 3.5 as we go. So my apologizes ahead of time if these questions are very newbish. Issue 1- Magical ranged weapons and magical ammo, are the bonuses supposed to stack? If you shot a +3 arrow from a +4 longbow is it intended to be a total of +7, or is it supposed to be +5(highest mod a magic can get), or is it the higher of the 2 bonuses which would be +4? I am thinking this may be one of those DM call type issues, but looking to see if there is any actual rules about it before calling it one way or another. Issue 2- In our party, we have a ranger who has put pretty much all of his feats/gold/magical items into being a crackshot archer. Sometimes, he will be in melee range of a creature in combat and when a ranged weapon is fired at that range, the creature gets an attack of opportunity. Well, after reading the combat section of the PH very throughly, he determined that all he has to do is take a 5 foot step backwards at the beginning of his combat round and then take all his attacks. The creature no longer gets attacks of opportunity for the attacks because the ranger is out of the threat range and he only moved a 5 foot step which does not provoke an attack... Are we doing this correctly is my question? It doesnt seem right that moving 5 feet and shooting after moving doesnt provoke an attack, while if he backed out 20 feet to be near another a party member and shot once, he would have been attacked for leaving the threatened area. I mean, how does a creature know if your going to move only 5 or 20, but the time you move more than 5, you literally would be out its range anyway unless it has a greater reach. Thanks for any feedback on these issues. :)
Ithandor 09-01-05, 10:08 AM	Issue 1- Magical ranged weapons and magical ammo, are the bonuses supposed to stack? If you shot a +3 arrow from a +4 longbow is it intended to be a total of +7, or is it supposed to be +5(highest mod a magic can get), or is it the higher of the 2 bonuses which would be +4? I am thinking this may be one of those DM call type issues, but looking to see if there is any actual rules about it before calling it one way or another. You use only the greatest bonus; they do not stack. In this case you would use the +4 from the longbow. Issue 2- In our party, we have a ranger who has put pretty much all of his feats/gold/magical items into being a crackshot archer. Sometimes, he will be in melee range of a creature in combat and when a ranged weapon is fired at that range, the creature gets an attack of opportunity. Well, after reading the combat section of the PH very throughly, he determined that all he has to do is take a 5 foot step backwards at the beginning of his combat round and then take all his attacks. The creature no longer gets attacks of opportunity for the attacks because the ranger is out of the threat range and he only moved a 5 foot step which does not provoke an attack... Are we doing this correctly is my question? It doesnt seem right that moving 5 feet and shooting after moving doesnt provoke an attack, while if he backed out 20 feet to be near another a party member and shot once, he would have been attacked for leaving the threatened area. I mean, how does a creature know if your going to move only 5 or 20, but the time you move more than 5, you literally would be out its range anyway unless it has a greater reach. You are doing it correctly. You can take a 5ft step and then full attack safely (disregarding the possibility of extended reach). This topic has been discussed many times, but it is the way the rules are written AND intended. Bear in mind that if the archer does this, his foe can simply 5ft step next round and full attack the archer. It works both ways ;) Ithandor
Bopple 09-01-05, 10:08 AM	1. The highest of the two; +4. But weapon special abilities stack. For example, if you shoot +1 shocking arrow with a +2 flaming bow, the result is +2 flaming, shocking. 2. Yes, that's one of advantages big monsters get, compared to humanoids.
pres_man 09-01-05, 10:35 AM	1: As the others have said, you take the highest value, but abilities do stack. Now in 3rd edition (not 3.5) they did stack and so you would have had a +7. 2: Don't think of it as a 5' step, so much as a 5' adjustment. You are being careful, because you know you'll only be moving 5'. On the other hand if you were to move back 20', you'd know it and would have to think about not tripping or something, which means you'd be distract and leave yourself open to attacks. That is what an AoO is, an attack when someone is distracted. If you can stay focused, you shouldn't draw AoO. AoO happen when someone "messes up", not when they act in a strategic fashion. Believe me, the 5' adjustment is one of the most desirable things in the game for PCs and NPCs.
Inigo Carmine 09-01-05, 10:42 AM	I mean, how does a creature know if your going to move only 5 or 20, but the time you move more than 5, you literally would be out its range anyway unless it has a greater reach. An Attack of opportunity isn't something the creature realizes and makes an extra swing for. It happens when the opponent drops his guard (for whatever reason) and the creature now has a higher chance of hitting his enemy. The way you move when you move 20 ft isn't particularly defensive (barring things that make it so, like tumbling). The way you move when you're only slowly moving 5ft is a much more defensible movement, hence your guard isn't significantly dropped, and no AoO is provoked. ============= Being able to 5-ft step back may seem slightly unrealistic, but it's very much balanced. First off, it is easily countered by things like flanking/surrounding/cornering against a wall or obstacle (you might be able to 5 ft step, but there's no available unthreatened squares), tripping, disarming, sundering, grappling, etc. Remember non-melee weapons get a penalty to try and keep out of harms way during a disarm/sunder attampt, and because a bow doesn't threaten, the meleer can attempt more risky manuevers without the drawback of an AoO. As someone else said, after he 5-ft steps back and attacks, its your turn to do the same. The archer should be easier to hit, and be doing less damage than you in a full attack. His advantage is that he can almost always full attack, and doesn't need to close with the enemy. Once you also close and have the ability to make a full attack, the archer has just lost his advantages. Also, i think of the ability to 5-ft step back and full attack as payback for hitpoints. Realistically the archer should be SOL once you close with him. But realistically, you should have been SOL long before you ever covered the 60 ft between him and you.
tarkin 09-01-05, 10:56 AM	Agreeing with the above posters, but throwing in some more information. 1) Non-identical enchantments do work together. So instead of buying +4 arrows for your +3 bow, try this:. +3 bow, and buy 10 +1 holy arrows, 10 +1 Axiomatic arrows, 10 +1 Anarchic arrows, 10 +1 Brilliant arrows, 10 +1 Construct bane arrows. 2) Do not think of it as quickly taking a 5ft step and taking a full attack action. Instead think of it as slowly moving 5ft back, taking extra long to do this to negate an AoO, then taking your full attack action.
Nom 09-01-05, 07:21 PM	Although the archer can negate AoOs with a 5 ft. step (assuming the terrain and tactical situation is favourable), remember that he also cannot make them as he does not threaten. What an archer in melee combat really fears is being flanked - if there's an opponent on each side (orthogonally) they get a +2 to-hit and he cannot 5 ft. step out of range. And the inability to take AoOs makes it easier to flank him and makes him vulnerable to special attacks (especially trip and sunder).
Nephlite 09-01-05, 07:57 PM	Although the archer can negate AoOs with a 5 ft. step (assuming the terrain and tactical situation is favourable), remember that he also cannot make them as he does not threaten. What an archer in melee combat really fears is being flanked - if there's an opponent on each side (orthogonally) they get a +2 to-hit and he cannot 5 ft. step out of range. And the inability to take AoOs makes it easier to flank him and makes him vulnerable to special attacks (especially trip and sunder). The archer should buy Spiked armor (cost 50 gold). Armor spikes can used to threaten. It does help when emies get to close so you can Attack of opportunity them. (priceless)
Colmarr 09-01-05, 10:37 PM	1) Non-identical enchantments do work together. So instead of buying +4 arrows for your +3 bow, try this:. +3 bow, and buy 10 +1 holy arrows, 10 +1 Axiomatic arrows, 10 +1 Anarchic arrows, 10 +1 Brilliant arrows, 10 +1 Construct bane arrows. Are you suggesting the arrows would come out +4 {insert special ability here} arrows, or +3 {insert special ability} arrows? I assume you mean the latter (which is correct), but the wording of your post was unclear.
FlameLover 09-01-05, 11:01 PM	Obviously I didn't post it but yes, that would appear to be the intent. Buying/using arrows with a higher enhancment than +1 is just plain stupid since if you splash out on a good bow you won't need to! I'd just get a +whatever you can afford bow with things like keen, speed, etc. (not sure if you CAN put speed on a bow but w/e) and have arrows of +1 good, evil, lawful, chaotic, fire, ice, sonic, electric, acid, bane... if you have 5-10 of all those types you'll be able to take done nearly ANYTHING!
TLStarfighter 09-02-05, 04:46 PM	Obviously I didn't post it but yes, that would appear to be the intent. Buying/using arrows with a higher enhancment than +1 is just plain stupid since if you splash out on a good bow you won't need to! I'd just get a +whatever you can afford bow with things like keen, speed, etc. (not sure if you CAN put speed on a bow but w/e) and have arrows of +1 good, evil, lawful, chaotic, fire, ice, sonic, electric, acid, bane... if you have 5-10 of all those types you'll be able to take done nearly ANYTHING! Alternatively have someone cast Greater Magic Weapon on your quiver of arrows and get a bow with interesting enchantments.