Death Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Death Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arkhain
10-12-04, 12:56 AM What, exactly, is the action for using a Death Attack? Is it just an addition to an attack, like a sneak attack? If I've studied my opponent for 3 rounds, can I full attack him and make him save multiple times? Can I full attack at all? Can I Improved Trip him and get the DA on the followup? Can I DA off of a Cleave?
shift244
10-12-04, 04:39 AM as i recall, the DA is basically a sneak attack. with one exception. if you can "study" a target for a minute (or so?) and within the next 3 rounds make ONE attack against the target, you can on a successful hit, force a Fort save or die on the target, with DC being level dependant.

there is nothing to make a 2nd attack since it takes a full round action (i think) to make that ONE attack and any tripping or tipping of the target of your action voids the "study" time, which in turn voids the Fort save thingy.

i dunno if you can cleave of a kill tho.. tho i think you could by RAW.
Egres
10-12-04, 08:54 AM What, exactly, is the action for using a Death Attack? Is it just an addition to an attack, like a sneak attack? If I've studied my opponent for 3 rounds, can I full attack him and make him save multiple times? Can I full attack at all? Can I Improved Trip him and get the DA on the followup? Can I DA off of a Cleave?

1)Yes

2)No, only one of your attacks will be a possible Death Attack

3)Yes.

4)Yes

5)Yes
Zelphi
10-12-04, 09:14 AM Err... hold up... once they know you're an opponent trying to kill them then its a no.

The attack you make after a death attack has to be a sneak attack. Whilst it might be possible to get a sneak attack after an improved trip, it would have to be a part of the sneak attack attempt.

Again, whilst you can get a death attack off a cleave, if the preceeding attack would identify you as hostile to the victim, then it'd be a no (because you'd fail the 3 rounds of study before hand). Not only that but you couldn't get a death attack against the foe you cleaved from because you can only study one person at a time.

Note that you can Death attack then full attack, but only the first attack would be a Death attack (the rest might be standard sneak attacks).
Mirtek
10-12-04, 09:20 AM Can I Improved Trip him and get the DA on the followup?4)Yes No, you can't.

With the trip you've shown yourself to your target and can no longer DA him, as he has recognized you as a hostile before you were able to DA him
Zelphi
10-12-04, 09:25 AM The "not identified as a threat" part only counts to the 3 round study period. It is entirely possible (whilst unlikely) that in the trip attempt you wouldn't identify an attacker.
For example if you couldn't see your tripper, and the attack came in before you could identify an attacker.

Same with grapple, though you can't really sneak attack during a grapple...
Mirtek
10-12-04, 09:40 AM No, as soon as the assassin makes the trip attack he has spoiled his change for his DA.

Well, with Improved Invisibily maybe, but otherwise he can no longer DA once he has been spoted as a threat.
ClementWillowbreaker
10-12-04, 10:55 AM If you read the ability description, you will see that being unobserved as an enemy is a requirement for the three rounds of study. Then, one has three rounds to deliver a sneak attack. In any way one can normally deliver a sneak attack. The restriction does not apply to the sneak attack. So you can charge into the enemy to flank him and still DA. Or come out of the shadows, use Find the Gap or Sense Weakness (our rogue's favorite trick) or feint to lower the target's AC (feinting would also qualify for letting the DA through).

Being invisible/unseen/having the opponent be flat-footed to you is only one way to make sneak attacks. It is usually the easiest way for an assassin to allow the DA, since he already had to be a hidden threat to start with. But not the only way.
Mirtek
10-12-04, 11:07 AM But the DA has to occur on your first attack. Otherwise you're a recognized enemy and your DA chance is gone.

You can feint/DA or charge/DA, but if you make a trip, your one attack before being recognized is gone for the trip.
ClementWillowbreaker
10-12-04, 12:18 PM The description of DA says Nothing About it being on the first attack. Just within 3 rounds. And once again, the enemy can realize you are there once you have studied him for the three rounds.

The description of executing the DA (pun intended) is without qualification beyond requiring a sneak attack. It could have said, "The opponent must not be aware of you as an enemy until the moment of your attack" but it DOESN'T. You can sneak attack a foe that knows you are there if he is unable to defend himself properly. Not knowing you are there is only one cause of it.
Egres
10-12-04, 01:33 PM No, you can't.

With the trip you've shown yourself to your target and can no longer DA him, as he has recognized you as a hostile before you were able to DA him
What ClementWillowbreaker and Zelphi said.
Gold Katana
10-12-04, 04:57 PM Death Attack: If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin's choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin's class level + the assassin's Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim's saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.
Clem and Zel are right. The secrecy must be maintained during the studying. Perhaps this represents the assassin spotting a "chink in the armor" rather than exploiting it with surprise. And the DA needn't be the first attack, only an attack within three rounds.
Egres
10-12-04, 08:49 PM Clem and Zel are right. The secrecy must be maintained during the studying. Perhaps this represents the assassin spotting a "chink in the armor" rather than exploiting it with surprise. And the DA needn't be the first attack, only an attack within three rounds.
Hey, don't forget me!

I was right too! :D
Arkhain
10-13-04, 04:24 PM I'm kind of unclear on the "detect the assassin" vs "recognize the assassin as an enemy" section.

Does this mean that I (as an assassin) can't, for example, chat with my completely unknowing victim ("Oh, hello, friend, how are you? Good? Splendid!") for three rounds as if I were a friend, then shiv him for DA, because he has detected me, even though he doesn't treat me as a threat?

Does this also mean that if he knows that I'm a threat, say, I attacked him last week and he remembers that black-clad asssassin, that I can't DA him, even if he doesn't know I'm there?

It seems that it's either one or the other, unless they meant for DA to be incredibly exacting in its use.

However, it has been agreed that I can Imp Trip or Cleave, because the secrecy is during the studying phase only?

Thanks for your help.

(edit : fixed typos.)
Purkake
10-13-04, 05:01 PM I tink that if the target sees you as an enemy. It doesn't matter if he knows WHO you are as long as he doesn't see you as an enemy. So if he saw a caped figure the week before he doesn't know it's you and doesn't fear you. You could also hide and watch someone who knows that your an assasin as lon as you can look at him for 3 rounds and then ge off a sneak attack. After 3 rounds it doesn't matter anymore because you have already studied him.

That is how i see it, it might be wrong.
mattmurdock
10-14-04, 03:17 AM I think it is an either/or thing -

If the target does not (or would not) recognise you as an enemy, then you can stand right in front of his face for 3 rounds and then DA him.

Otherwise, if he does (or could, i.e. afraid of caped figure he saw sneaking earlier, you come up to him wearing a cape) recognise you as an enemy you have to be in hiding for the 3 rounds so he can't observe you.
Zelphi
10-14-04, 07:11 AM Death Attack: If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin's choice).

To clear up my other point, it must be a sneak attack.

In one fairly obscure campaign, we had an Azn-a-like who would indeed parlay with people - then one Iaijutsui strike later - dead with no clue as to who did it.

You could be disguised as a clown, strike without realisation and they'd be none the wiser. Hell Druids make damn good Azn's - polymorph into someones pet cat - then death strike them. They get thousand faces too!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arkhain 10-12-04, 12:56 AM	What, exactly, is the action for using a Death Attack? Is it just an addition to an attack, like a sneak attack? If I've studied my opponent for 3 rounds, can I full attack him and make him save multiple times? Can I full attack at all? Can I Improved Trip him and get the DA on the followup? Can I DA off of a Cleave?
shift244 10-12-04, 04:39 AM	as i recall, the DA is basically a sneak attack. with one exception. if you can "study" a target for a minute (or so?) and within the next 3 rounds make ONE attack against the target, you can on a successful hit, force a Fort save or die on the target, with DC being level dependant. there is nothing to make a 2nd attack since it takes a full round action (i think) to make that ONE attack and any tripping or tipping of the target of your action voids the "study" time, which in turn voids the Fort save thingy. i dunno if you can cleave of a kill tho.. tho i think you could by RAW.
Egres 10-12-04, 08:54 AM	What, exactly, is the action for using a Death Attack? Is it just an addition to an attack, like a sneak attack? If I've studied my opponent for 3 rounds, can I full attack him and make him save multiple times? Can I full attack at all? Can I Improved Trip him and get the DA on the followup? Can I DA off of a Cleave? 1)Yes 2)No, only one of your attacks will be a possible Death Attack 3)Yes. 4)Yes 5)Yes
Zelphi 10-12-04, 09:14 AM	Err... hold up... once they know you're an opponent trying to kill them then its a no. The attack you make after a death attack has to be a sneak attack. Whilst it might be possible to get a sneak attack after an improved trip, it would have to be a part of the sneak attack attempt. Again, whilst you can get a death attack off a cleave, if the preceeding attack would identify you as hostile to the victim, then it'd be a no (because you'd fail the 3 rounds of study before hand). Not only that but you couldn't get a death attack against the foe you cleaved from because you can only study one person at a time. Note that you can Death attack then full attack, but only the first attack would be a Death attack (the rest might be standard sneak attacks).
Mirtek 10-12-04, 09:20 AM	Can I Improved Trip him and get the DA on the followup?4)Yes No, you can't. With the trip you've shown yourself to your target and can no longer DA him, as he has recognized you as a hostile before you were able to DA him
Zelphi 10-12-04, 09:25 AM	The "not identified as a threat" part only counts to the 3 round study period. It is entirely possible (whilst unlikely) that in the trip attempt you wouldn't identify an attacker. For example if you couldn't see your tripper, and the attack came in before you could identify an attacker. Same with grapple, though you can't really sneak attack during a grapple...
Mirtek 10-12-04, 09:40 AM	No, as soon as the assassin makes the trip attack he has spoiled his change for his DA. Well, with Improved Invisibily maybe, but otherwise he can no longer DA once he has been spoted as a threat.
ClementWillowbreaker 10-12-04, 10:55 AM	If you read the ability description, you will see that being unobserved as an enemy is a requirement for the three rounds of study. Then, one has three rounds to deliver a sneak attack. In any way one can normally deliver a sneak attack. The restriction does not apply to the sneak attack. So you can charge into the enemy to flank him and still DA. Or come out of the shadows, use Find the Gap or Sense Weakness (our rogue's favorite trick) or feint to lower the target's AC (feinting would also qualify for letting the DA through). Being invisible/unseen/having the opponent be flat-footed to you is only one way to make sneak attacks. It is usually the easiest way for an assassin to allow the DA, since he already had to be a hidden threat to start with. But not the only way.
Mirtek 10-12-04, 11:07 AM	But the DA has to occur on your first attack. Otherwise you're a recognized enemy and your DA chance is gone. You can feint/DA or charge/DA, but if you make a trip, your one attack before being recognized is gone for the trip.
ClementWillowbreaker 10-12-04, 12:18 PM	The description of DA says Nothing About it being on the first attack. Just within 3 rounds. And once again, the enemy can realize you are there once you have studied him for the three rounds. The description of executing the DA (pun intended) is without qualification beyond requiring a sneak attack. It could have said, "The opponent must not be aware of you as an enemy until the moment of your attack" but it DOESN'T. You can sneak attack a foe that knows you are there if he is unable to defend himself properly. Not knowing you are there is only one cause of it.
Egres 10-12-04, 01:33 PM	No, you can't. With the trip you've shown yourself to your target and can no longer DA him, as he has recognized you as a hostile before you were able to DA him What ClementWillowbreaker and Zelphi said.
Gold Katana 10-12-04, 04:57 PM	Death Attack: If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin's choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin's class level + the assassin's Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim's saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds. Clem and Zel are right. The secrecy must be maintained during the studying. Perhaps this represents the assassin spotting a "chink in the armor" rather than exploiting it with surprise. And the DA needn't be the first attack, only an attack within three rounds.
Egres 10-12-04, 08:49 PM	Clem and Zel are right. The secrecy must be maintained during the studying. Perhaps this represents the assassin spotting a "chink in the armor" rather than exploiting it with surprise. And the DA needn't be the first attack, only an attack within three rounds. Hey, don't forget me! I was right too! :D
Arkhain 10-13-04, 04:24 PM	I'm kind of unclear on the "detect the assassin" vs "recognize the assassin as an enemy" section. Does this mean that I (as an assassin) can't, for example, chat with my completely unknowing victim ("Oh, hello, friend, how are you? Good? Splendid!") for three rounds as if I were a friend, then shiv him for DA, because he has detected me, even though he doesn't treat me as a threat? Does this also mean that if he knows that I'm a threat, say, I attacked him last week and he remembers that black-clad asssassin, that I can't DA him, even if he doesn't know I'm there? It seems that it's either one or the other, unless they meant for DA to be incredibly exacting in its use. However, it has been agreed that I can Imp Trip or Cleave, because the secrecy is during the studying phase only? Thanks for your help. (edit : fixed typos.)
Purkake 10-13-04, 05:01 PM	I tink that if the target sees you as an enemy. It doesn't matter if he knows WHO you are as long as he doesn't see you as an enemy. So if he saw a caped figure the week before he doesn't know it's you and doesn't fear you. You could also hide and watch someone who knows that your an assasin as lon as you can look at him for 3 rounds and then ge off a sneak attack. After 3 rounds it doesn't matter anymore because you have already studied him. That is how i see it, it might be wrong.
mattmurdock 10-14-04, 03:17 AM	I think it is an either/or thing - If the target does not (or would not) recognise you as an enemy, then you can stand right in front of his face for 3 rounds and then DA him. Otherwise, if he does (or could, i.e. afraid of caped figure he saw sneaking earlier, you come up to him wearing a cape) recognise you as an enemy you have to be in hiding for the 3 rounds so he can't observe you.
Zelphi 10-14-04, 07:11 AM	Death Attack: If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin's choice). To clear up my other point, it must be a sneak attack. In one fairly obscure campaign, we had an Azn-a-like who would indeed parlay with people - then one Iaijutsui strike later - dead with no clue as to who did it. You could be disguised as a clown, strike without realisation and they'd be none the wiser. Hell Druids make damn good Azn's - polymorph into someones pet cat - then death strike them. They get thousand faces too!