Death By Folding Boat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Death By Folding Boat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hizar
12-05-06, 08:59 PM Ok Guys and Gals, this is my first thread so be nice :D

I had developed what I thought was a difficult challange for my players, an adult Green Dragon. Basic stats from the MM. however on of my players out thought me. He flew up to the dragon and threw a folding boat at it, speaking the comand word to unfold it into a ship as he did so. Then just to add insult to injury he crit'ed on the throw. Needless to say the base damage of a ship is rather high, and I gave him the kill.

How could this have been handled better? Frankly right now folding boats no longer exsist in my world

Thanks
Batshido
12-05-06, 09:49 PM Well, if you define the direction in which the boat expands a little better, it is entirely possible that this could harm the player as well. If it only expands forward, it's going to get the dragon. If it expands in all directions, it could whack the pc as well.

It's worth mentioning that a folding boat is a command word activated item and saying a command word is technically a standard action. That would mean that one could either throw the folded boat or inflate it, but not both.
Tsuul
12-06-06, 01:00 AM The boat would just apear to stop midair, then fall. That's my take and I'm sticking to it.
GalaGalaxia
12-06-06, 02:59 AM He can speak the command word and then drop it (not throw) as a free action.
rks
12-06-06, 03:09 AM Or he could lure the dragon to eat the boat and THEN speak the command word! *poff*
bass_GS
12-06-06, 10:15 AM hey, I've had a character get arms and legs broken for making a folding boat appear in his arms. it was in its small boat form, and all he did was fall down, so I'd give him the kill.
enygmatic_me
12-06-06, 10:18 AM It's funny, it was creative, I think you handled it fine.
SunTzuWarmaster
12-06-06, 11:06 AM Dragon dies, boat breaks, rumors of a boat in the middle of nowhere atop a dragon spread to the dragonkin, which carefully avoid PC races that fly above them for the next year or so.
maskimus
12-06-06, 01:02 PM This also works great with a Quaals Feather Token:Tree:D
Although I would guess it would be a one trick pony per DM.:schemes:
frasmage
12-06-06, 02:08 PM This also works great with a Quaals Feather Token:Tree:D

that needs to root itself in the ground to grow, so its not going to hit him mid-flight
mvincent
12-06-06, 02:35 PM As a general rule in D&D, summoned/created/enlarging objects do not do damage unless it is specifically noted in their description (example: portable fortress). The accepted handling of such items being enlarged in a confined area is as per the enlarge spell.
crimsonwolf
12-06-06, 02:40 PM okay so if i summon a boulder on top of ya its not goign to crush you ?
mvincent
12-06-06, 02:48 PM okay so if i summon a boulder on top of ya its not goign to crush you ?I'd be curious how you would do so, but yes, it would do damage according to falling rules (i.e. their are specific rules for that)

If any of the above examples were using falling rules to achieve their damage, then that would be applicable. I didn't gather that from the context, and the boat's description doesn't have a weight and seems fairly light, but I agree that falling damage (as given in the rules, from the point where it first appeared) would be applicable.

Also note: if you throw or drop something, then enlarge it, it should not maintain it's speed from when it was small. These sorts of things have been discussed before in detail in other threads. Down that path lies madness.
risner
12-06-06, 03:51 PM I would rule that the boat had to enlarge while the PC was touching it and the PC would no longer be able to throw the item once enlarged (unless his strength was 40+ ish) so the object would simply fall (drop) to the ground.
If the Dragon was under the boat by some chance, he would have a Reflex save to take no damage and if he failed he would take (DMG p303 rules for falling objects) damage from a Rowboat (PHB 129; same size as folding boat and weights 100 lb) as if it fell from 30 ft (DMG p303 100lb = 30 ft.) This comes out to 3d6 damage. Simple solution and in my mind fair. The boat would also take the same 3d6 damage.
mvincent
12-06-06, 04:17 PM If the Dragon was under the boat by some chance, he would have a Reflex save to take no damage and if he failed he would take (DMG p303 rules for falling objects) damage from a RowboatCurious: what would you base the DC of the reflex save on?
rastlin_of_the_tomes
12-06-06, 04:24 PM ok, thats priceless, thats about as funny as when in this one time someone in my group shoved a decanter of endless water into a monster throat (taking bite damage along the way.) and then turned on the gyser mode to simultainously drown the poor thing and get thrown back aganst the wall, (we have a house rule that anyone with a dex of 17 or more has 2 standard actions insted of 1 standard and 1 move, although your still not allowed to cast 2 spells then.):w00t: :clap: :ayyyy!: :rofl: :mage:
tyrecian
12-06-06, 04:26 PM i think its fair (in these instances) to reward player creativity. No player just wants to hear that their boat is broken and they are dumb to boot.

I also think, however, that such massive damage combos from odds and ends should be avoided.

Best way to rule em is to give the dragon a reflex save for partial damage and roll behind the screen for the actual damage. Outright kills should be reserved for magic or high damage fort saves, make the player earn those outright kills per combat rules.

still a reflex save is fair, and you can describe the boat doing damage in a way that makes it still reward the player's ingenuity. Best not to encourage crazy ideas though, simply because then the player's begin to think in terms of combos and such that are outside of rulings.

While such "outside the box" thinking is great in real life, it can be a nightmare to game by the rules, which puts a DM (and friend) in a precarious position with arguing players who will might begin to feel cheated.

Still: "A second command word causes it to unfold to a ship 24 feet long, 8 feet wide, and 6 feet deep. Any objects formerly stored in the box now rest inside the boat or ship. In its smaller form, the boat has one pair of oars, an anchor, a mast, and a lateen sail. In its larger form, the boat has a deck, single rowing seats, five sets of oars, a steering oar, an anchor, a deck cabin, and a mast with a square sail. The boat can hold four people comfortably, while the ship carries fifteen with ease." That is a pretty hefty head shot =D i think by falling rules that still is pretty nasty damage.
frasmage
12-06-06, 06:26 PM okay so if i summon a boulder on top of ya its not goign to crush you ?

summoned, called and created objects and creatures must all be summoned onto a surface that can support their weight

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

however, if you pushed that boulder off a cliff it would still hurt
risner
12-06-06, 11:28 PM Curious: what would you base the DC of the reflex save on?

First, the Reflex is a house rule. To be "rules consistent" you would need to use DC15 Jump/Tumble checks as defined by the DMG.

But when flying, I think a Reflex makes more sense. I'd make it a DC15 Reflex plus 2 for every maneuverability class past perfect. E.g. for Black Wyrm Clumsy is 4 worse (Good, Average, Poor, Clumsy) = 15+4*2 = DC 23

That is a pretty hefty head shot =D i think by falling rules that still is pretty nasty damage.

Strictly by the rules (DMG p303), that is 1d6 per 30' falling with a DC 15 Jump/Tumble to make 1d6 go away and another 1d6 non lethal for a boat that size. That is hardly nasty damage and it certainly will not kill an undamaged Dragon no matter how young.

I misread the chart on my earlier post. It isn't 30 ft and then 3d6, it is for every 30 ft falling, the 100 lb object deals 1d6 damage. So a 300 ft drop = 10d6 damage for a Folding Boat (100 lb) dropped.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hizar 12-05-06, 08:59 PM	Ok Guys and Gals, this is my first thread so be nice :D I had developed what I thought was a difficult challange for my players, an adult Green Dragon. Basic stats from the MM. however on of my players out thought me. He flew up to the dragon and threw a folding boat at it, speaking the comand word to unfold it into a ship as he did so. Then just to add insult to injury he crit'ed on the throw. Needless to say the base damage of a ship is rather high, and I gave him the kill. How could this have been handled better? Frankly right now folding boats no longer exsist in my world Thanks
Batshido 12-05-06, 09:49 PM	Well, if you define the direction in which the boat expands a little better, it is entirely possible that this could harm the player as well. If it only expands forward, it's going to get the dragon. If it expands in all directions, it could whack the pc as well. It's worth mentioning that a folding boat is a command word activated item and saying a command word is technically a standard action. That would mean that one could either throw the folded boat or inflate it, but not both.
Tsuul 12-06-06, 01:00 AM	The boat would just apear to stop midair, then fall. That's my take and I'm sticking to it.
GalaGalaxia 12-06-06, 02:59 AM	He can speak the command word and then drop it (not throw) as a free action.
rks 12-06-06, 03:09 AM	Or he could lure the dragon to eat the boat and THEN speak the command word! poff
bass_GS 12-06-06, 10:15 AM	hey, I've had a character get arms and legs broken for making a folding boat appear in his arms. it was in its small boat form, and all he did was fall down, so I'd give him the kill.
enygmatic_me 12-06-06, 10:18 AM	It's funny, it was creative, I think you handled it fine.
SunTzuWarmaster 12-06-06, 11:06 AM	Dragon dies, boat breaks, rumors of a boat in the middle of nowhere atop a dragon spread to the dragonkin, which carefully avoid PC races that fly above them for the next year or so.
maskimus 12-06-06, 01:02 PM	This also works great with a Quaals Feather Token:Tree:D Although I would guess it would be a one trick pony per DM.:schemes:
frasmage 12-06-06, 02:08 PM	This also works great with a Quaals Feather Token:Tree:D that needs to root itself in the ground to grow, so its not going to hit him mid-flight
mvincent 12-06-06, 02:35 PM	As a general rule in D&D, summoned/created/enlarging objects do not do damage unless it is specifically noted in their description (example: portable fortress). The accepted handling of such items being enlarged in a confined area is as per the enlarge spell.
crimsonwolf 12-06-06, 02:40 PM	okay so if i summon a boulder on top of ya its not goign to crush you ?
mvincent 12-06-06, 02:48 PM	okay so if i summon a boulder on top of ya its not goign to crush you ?I'd be curious how you would do so, but yes, it would do damage according to falling rules (i.e. their are specific rules for that) If any of the above examples were using falling rules to achieve their damage, then that would be applicable. I didn't gather that from the context, and the boat's description doesn't have a weight and seems fairly light, but I agree that falling damage (as given in the rules, from the point where it first appeared) would be applicable. Also note: if you throw or drop something, then enlarge it, it should not maintain it's speed from when it was small. These sorts of things have been discussed before in detail in other threads. Down that path lies madness.
risner 12-06-06, 03:51 PM	I would rule that the boat had to enlarge while the PC was touching it and the PC would no longer be able to throw the item once enlarged (unless his strength was 40+ ish) so the object would simply fall (drop) to the ground. If the Dragon was under the boat by some chance, he would have a Reflex save to take no damage and if he failed he would take (DMG p303 rules for falling objects) damage from a Rowboat (PHB 129; same size as folding boat and weights 100 lb) as if it fell from 30 ft (DMG p303 100lb = 30 ft.) This comes out to 3d6 damage. Simple solution and in my mind fair. The boat would also take the same 3d6 damage.
mvincent 12-06-06, 04:17 PM	If the Dragon was under the boat by some chance, he would have a Reflex save to take no damage and if he failed he would take (DMG p303 rules for falling objects) damage from a RowboatCurious: what would you base the DC of the reflex save on?
rastlin_of_the_tomes 12-06-06, 04:24 PM	ok, thats priceless, thats about as funny as when in this one time someone in my group shoved a decanter of endless water into a monster throat (taking bite damage along the way.) and then turned on the gyser mode to simultainously drown the poor thing and get thrown back aganst the wall, (we have a house rule that anyone with a dex of 17 or more has 2 standard actions insted of 1 standard and 1 move, although your still not allowed to cast 2 spells then.):w00t: :clap: :ayyyy!: :rofl: :mage:
tyrecian 12-06-06, 04:26 PM	i think its fair (in these instances) to reward player creativity. No player just wants to hear that their boat is broken and they are dumb to boot. I also think, however, that such massive damage combos from odds and ends should be avoided. Best way to rule em is to give the dragon a reflex save for partial damage and roll behind the screen for the actual damage. Outright kills should be reserved for magic or high damage fort saves, make the player earn those outright kills per combat rules. still a reflex save is fair, and you can describe the boat doing damage in a way that makes it still reward the player's ingenuity. Best not to encourage crazy ideas though, simply because then the player's begin to think in terms of combos and such that are outside of rulings. While such "outside the box" thinking is great in real life, it can be a nightmare to game by the rules, which puts a DM (and friend) in a precarious position with arguing players who will might begin to feel cheated. Still: "A second command word causes it to unfold to a ship 24 feet long, 8 feet wide, and 6 feet deep. Any objects formerly stored in the box now rest inside the boat or ship. In its smaller form, the boat has one pair of oars, an anchor, a mast, and a lateen sail. In its larger form, the boat has a deck, single rowing seats, five sets of oars, a steering oar, an anchor, a deck cabin, and a mast with a square sail. The boat can hold four people comfortably, while the ship carries fifteen with ease." That is a pretty hefty head shot =D i think by falling rules that still is pretty nasty damage.
frasmage 12-06-06, 06:26 PM	okay so if i summon a boulder on top of ya its not goign to crush you ? summoned, called and created objects and creatures must all be summoned onto a surface that can support their weight A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. however, if you pushed that boulder off a cliff it would still hurt
risner 12-06-06, 11:28 PM	Curious: what would you base the DC of the reflex save on? First, the Reflex is a house rule. To be "rules consistent" you would need to use DC15 Jump/Tumble checks as defined by the DMG. But when flying, I think a Reflex makes more sense. I'd make it a DC15 Reflex plus 2 for every maneuverability class past perfect. E.g. for Black Wyrm Clumsy is 4 worse (Good, Average, Poor, Clumsy) = 15+4*2 = DC 23 That is a pretty hefty head shot =D i think by falling rules that still is pretty nasty damage. Strictly by the rules (DMG p303), that is 1d6 per 30' falling with a DC 15 Jump/Tumble to make 1d6 go away and another 1d6 non lethal for a boat that size. That is hardly nasty damage and it certainly will not kill an undamaged Dragon no matter how young. I misread the chart on my earlier post. It isn't 30 ft and then 3d6, it is for every 30 ft falling, the 100 lb object deals 1d6 damage. So a 300 ft drop = 10d6 damage for a Folding Boat (100 lb) dropped.