Death By Massive Damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Death By Massive Damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Vlad74205
06-24-06, 09:39 PM In the campaign I'm playing in, the group has splintered off into two factions. One side being good, and the other evil. This allows the campaign to have greater suspense and be driven much more by how the characters interact. Anyway, sooner or later, there is going to be a point where the two factions are going to try to kill each other. Seeing as how powerful some of the weapons are, I've been attempting to find information on Massive Damage. However, all I know is that it is a fort save that is triggered after 50 points of damage is dealt in a single attack. What is the fort save DC? Is it equal to the amount of damage dealt total, beyond fifty, just 50 or what?

For example. Say a fighter is dealt 64 points of damage by a rouge. Would the Fort DC to keep from dieing be DC64 (total damage), DC14 (damage beyond 50), 24 (10 plus damage beyond 50), or DC50.
Akharu
06-24-06, 11:05 PM DC 15 Fort save, pg 145 PHB
Azezel
06-25-06, 05:35 AM DC15 - no matter how much the damage is. 50 or 500 - DC15.

Don't tell me that it doesn't make sense, that's just the way it is.
runestar
06-25-06, 06:55 AM Well, a 1 is still an automatic failure... :P
Vlad74205
06-29-06, 05:46 PM So basically, a 18th level monk has virtually no chance of dieing from massive damage. :uh-huh: :nonono: :raincloud :waits: :rant:
Merestil Haye
06-29-06, 06:11 PM So basically, a 18th level monk has virtually no chance of dieing from massive damage. :uh-huh: :nonono: :raincloud :waits: :rant:Or Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Paladin; in short, any 18th level character in a class with good Fort saves should fail only on 1.

I never bother with it; it's just another dieroll for little effect.
Vaalingrade Ashland
06-29-06, 06:18 PM Yeah, by the time you have to worry about massive damage, it doesn't matter.
ShinAkuma2
06-29-06, 06:32 PM So basically, a 18th level monk has virtually no chance of dieing from massive damage. :uh-huh: :nonono: :raincloud :waits: :rant:

Hey, 50+ damage is still 50+ damage. It's not like Monks tend to have very many hitpoints. That could easily be half of an 18th level Monk's hp, depending on rolls/Con mod.
FangsofChaos
06-29-06, 06:36 PM It matters with the character i'm playing with. He's an orc barbarian/frenzied berserker that usually does 50+ damage per hit, with a scythe. So there's a good chance things roll ones, I've dispached with a bbeg in the 2nd round with this. (my dm was sufficiently mad) and on a crit i do well into the 200's. Thanks to Supreme Power Attack......oooohhh I love supreme power attack.
Bob Loblaw
06-29-06, 07:27 PM I use two of the variants from Unearthed Arcana:

HD-Based Threshold

A character’s massive damage threshold is equal to 25, +2 per Hit Die. Whenever a character takes damage from a single hit that equals or exceeds this value, he must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or suffer the effects of massive damage.

For example, a 5th-level human fighter has a massive damage threshold of 35 (25 + [2 × 5]). A fire giant has a massive damage threshold of 55 (25 + [2 × 15]).

Scaling The Saving Throw

Another way to tweak the massive damage system is to scale the Fortitude save DC based on the damage taken. For every 10 points of damage dealt by an attack in excess of a character’s massive damage threschold, increase his Fortitude save DC by 2. This rule functions the same regardless of the threshold you choose to use.

For instance, if you use the standard 50-point threshold, a hit that deals 50 to 59 points of damage requires a DC 15 save, 60 to 69 points DC 17, 70 to 79 points DC 19, and so forth. If you use the Constitution-based threshold, a character with a Constitution of 15 would have to make a DC 15 Fortitude save when taking 15 to 24 points from a single attack, DC 17 for 25 to 34 points, DC 19 for 35 to 44 points, and so on.

You can find more here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/massaveDamageThresholdsAndResults.htm)
bondious
06-29-06, 08:05 PM I like the "Scaling The Saving Throw" option above. Something I've always thought of implementing but never really had to.

I DO have another example of where Death by Massive Damage is viable. Some time ago one of my players, a 13th or so level Rogue, got a critical hit from a slightly tweeked out Bronze Serpent (from the 3.0 MM2). She hadn't gotten hit the entire combat, due both to luck and a pretty high AC, but her luck finally failed and she got hit for like 55 damage or something. I had her make a laughable "Massive Damage" roll, and we all giggled...until the die came up with a "1"! No laughing matter NOW since it threw a Monkey Wrench into my game!

Anyhow, it got resolved (by a group devoted to Tyr coming to investigate the battle), and the player did a pretty cool drawing of the scene sometime after the game. Pretty funny, the ONLY time massive damage has come up in one of my games, and a character died. And her Fortitude save really wasn't THAT bad!
runestar
06-30-06, 12:32 AM Seriously, a hit dealing 50+ damage to a 18th lv fighter should be the equivalent of a normal blow - hurts, but hardly life-threatening. It's roughly the same as a 1st lv fighter taking a sword hit doing 6-7 damage.

At higher lvs, death by massive damage should hardly be an issue at all, IMO. :P
tridiak
06-30-06, 03:09 AM Another possible tweaking is the save DC is dmg/2-10
kjenks
06-30-06, 08:37 AM The Death by Massive Damage rule makes high level combats much more deadly, since even a wimpy level 6 spell (Maximize Spell + Fireball) triggers it in a bunch of opponents. I've seen creatures with 450+ HP dropped by a single attack.
Vlad74205
06-30-06, 11:23 PM The reason why I was hoping it would be a bigger save is because the DM and I have planned out a story arch that will have my character turning evil around 13-16th level. It can highten the excitement of the game because it pits the characters against each other. It becomes more likely that one will die in battle, as well as trying to figure out what your opponent will do.

This same thing happend when I was playing the Star Wars RPG. We got up into the higher levels, and our characters were disgustingly powerful. The DM was having a lot of trouble coming up with something to throw at us that we wouldn't obliterate. Then, we thought of having one of us go evil. I found a little known (for my group) force ability that would allow my character to take over someone else's body when mine died. One on five didn't give my character much of a chance. However, I was able to hurt them badly before they "killed" me. They were all laughing until I finally quieted them down enough to declare what I was doing. It was great having them trying to stop the body I stole without killing me, and subsequently the character whose body I stole.
Crimson_Concerto
06-30-06, 11:33 PM Wow, peopel actually use the massive damage rule? :uh-huh:
I've played with like 7 DM, and only 1 has ever used it. In that DM's campaign, I had somewhere around 300 HP, level 20. I take damage I'm well capable of dealing with, roll an unlucky natural 1 and just simply die when I'm still somewhere between 80%-85% HP? Absurd! :noway:

Maybe it's just that I don't get it, but what is the purpose of this rule? I don't see it balancing the game in any way...
ShinAkuma2
07-01-06, 12:14 AM Wow, peopel actually use the massive damage rule? :uh-huh:
I've played with like 7 DM, and only 1 has ever used it. In that DM's campaign, I had somewhere around 300 HP, level 20. I take damage I'm well capable of dealing with, roll an unlucky natural 1 and just simply die when I'm still somewhere between 80%-85% HP? Absurd! :noway:

Maybe it's just that I don't get it, but what is the purpose of this rule? I don't see it balancing the game in any way...

It's not balancing. Life isn't balancing, either, but sometimes you really do just go into shock and die after being maimed.
runestar
07-01-06, 12:58 AM To add a little more suspense to the game? Now 400hp barbs won't just yawn as the enemy mage torches them for 100+ damage - they might actually exprience a flicker of doubt due to the uncertainty of rolling a 1... :D
Vlad74205
07-01-06, 01:26 AM Wow, peopel actually use the massive damage rule? :uh-huh:
I've played with like 7 DM, and only 1 has ever used it. In that DM's campaign, I had somewhere around 300 HP, level 20. I take damage I'm well capable of dealing with, roll an unlucky natural 1 and just simply die when I'm still somewhere between 80%-85% HP? Absurd! :noway:

Maybe it's just that I don't get it, but what is the purpose of this rule? I don't see it balancing the game in any way...

Its falvorful. It makes it more realistic. In real life, if you would have 2 feet of cold steel pushed through you, there's a chance that you are going to die from the wound; EVEN if you were a legendary character like Hercules or King Arthur. Think of it as if your character was just stabbed, and a lot of blood comes spurting out.
Bob Loblaw
07-01-06, 01:42 AM It is also one of those things that can stop a frenzied berserker, 5% of the time. It's the Save or Die that warriors get to use too. Personally, I don't use it often because I don't like to kill PCs in such a cheap way. I do use it for the NPCs sometimes. It all depends on the mood of the game and players.
dndfencer
07-01-06, 09:23 PM does massive damage apply to dmg/ round or just to single lot of dmg?
There's arguments for both.
Personally, I'd go with per round because then fighters of a high enough level get a balance with magic users, they have a save or die 'spell'. Per hit would mean that two handed weapons and two weapon fighting are more evenly balanced (lets face it, two weapon fighting is much better) because two handed weapons are more likely to succeed in doing enough damage.
Vlad74205
07-01-06, 10:23 PM does massive damage apply to dmg/ round or just to single lot of dmg?
There's arguments for both.
Personally, I'd go with per round because then fighters of a high enough level get a balance with magic users, they have a save or die 'spell'. Per hit would mean that two handed weapons and two weapon fighting are more evenly balanced (lets face it, two weapon fighting is much better) because two handed weapons are more likely to succeed in doing enough damage.

Death by Massive Damage rolls are triggered of off a single attack. As per DMG 3.5, a medium size character (move up or down 10 per size difference) that is dealt 50 or more damage in a single attack must make a FORT save or die. Apparandtly, the DC is only 15. However, people above have mentioned alternate formats that can be used for it.
tui
07-01-06, 10:33 PM I also don't like the massive damage rules.. sure, it might be more "realistic" and "flavorful", but it definately favors monsters over PCs.. I think it is pretty reasonable to expect to receive 50+ points of damage at higher levels fairly often, especially in campaign with highly optimized characters. And to have a 1/20 chance that it kills you seems pretty lame... statistically, I think it makes it WAY too easy to die.

Maybe in a campaign where 50+ points of damage is REALLY rare.. or the threshhold and/or DC needs to change with levels.

Also of note, I seem to remember stumbling across a feat somewhere (PHII?) recently that among other things made it so you didn't fail a fort save on a 1. If you play with massive damage, this feat becomes a no-brainer for higher-level fighters who have the feats to burn..
runestar
07-01-06, 11:04 PM You could houserule that the massive damage threshold increases with lv. :)

Seriously, 50 is a lot of damage, even to a 400+hp fighter, by real life standards. It's understandable that the body would not be able to continuously handle such stress...
Grasshopper_ea
07-01-06, 11:11 PM Think of death by massive damage as getting hurt enough to throw you into shock. It's a critical hit of sorts in that you got hit in a vulnerable place so you may have 80-85% of your hps left but you lost your jugular and now you are dead by no blood left. I think it's a great rule but I think the DC should be based on damage taken and not a straight DC 15.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vlad74205 06-24-06, 09:39 PM	In the campaign I'm playing in, the group has splintered off into two factions. One side being good, and the other evil. This allows the campaign to have greater suspense and be driven much more by how the characters interact. Anyway, sooner or later, there is going to be a point where the two factions are going to try to kill each other. Seeing as how powerful some of the weapons are, I've been attempting to find information on Massive Damage. However, all I know is that it is a fort save that is triggered after 50 points of damage is dealt in a single attack. What is the fort save DC? Is it equal to the amount of damage dealt total, beyond fifty, just 50 or what? For example. Say a fighter is dealt 64 points of damage by a rouge. Would the Fort DC to keep from dieing be DC64 (total damage), DC14 (damage beyond 50), 24 (10 plus damage beyond 50), or DC50.
Akharu 06-24-06, 11:05 PM	DC 15 Fort save, pg 145 PHB
Azezel 06-25-06, 05:35 AM	DC15 - no matter how much the damage is. 50 or 500 - DC15. Don't tell me that it doesn't make sense, that's just the way it is.
runestar 06-25-06, 06:55 AM	Well, a 1 is still an automatic failure... :P
Vlad74205 06-29-06, 05:46 PM	So basically, a 18th level monk has virtually no chance of dieing from massive damage. :uh-huh: :nonono: :raincloud :waits: :rant:
Merestil Haye 06-29-06, 06:11 PM	So basically, a 18th level monk has virtually no chance of dieing from massive damage. :uh-huh: :nonono: :raincloud :waits: :rant:Or Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Paladin; in short, any 18th level character in a class with good Fort saves should fail only on 1. I never bother with it; it's just another dieroll for little effect.
Vaalingrade Ashland 06-29-06, 06:18 PM	Yeah, by the time you have to worry about massive damage, it doesn't matter.
ShinAkuma2 06-29-06, 06:32 PM	So basically, a 18th level monk has virtually no chance of dieing from massive damage. :uh-huh: :nonono: :raincloud :waits: :rant: Hey, 50+ damage is still 50+ damage. It's not like Monks tend to have very many hitpoints. That could easily be half of an 18th level Monk's hp, depending on rolls/Con mod.
FangsofChaos 06-29-06, 06:36 PM	It matters with the character i'm playing with. He's an orc barbarian/frenzied berserker that usually does 50+ damage per hit, with a scythe. So there's a good chance things roll ones, I've dispached with a bbeg in the 2nd round with this. (my dm was sufficiently mad) and on a crit i do well into the 200's. Thanks to Supreme Power Attack......oooohhh I love supreme power attack.
Bob Loblaw 06-29-06, 07:27 PM	I use two of the variants from Unearthed Arcana: HD-Based Threshold A character’s massive damage threshold is equal to 25, +2 per Hit Die. Whenever a character takes damage from a single hit that equals or exceeds this value, he must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or suffer the effects of massive damage. For example, a 5th-level human fighter has a massive damage threshold of 35 (25 + [2 × 5]). A fire giant has a massive damage threshold of 55 (25 + [2 × 15]). Scaling The Saving Throw Another way to tweak the massive damage system is to scale the Fortitude save DC based on the damage taken. For every 10 points of damage dealt by an attack in excess of a character’s massive damage threschold, increase his Fortitude save DC by 2. This rule functions the same regardless of the threshold you choose to use. For instance, if you use the standard 50-point threshold, a hit that deals 50 to 59 points of damage requires a DC 15 save, 60 to 69 points DC 17, 70 to 79 points DC 19, and so forth. If you use the Constitution-based threshold, a character with a Constitution of 15 would have to make a DC 15 Fortitude save when taking 15 to 24 points from a single attack, DC 17 for 25 to 34 points, DC 19 for 35 to 44 points, and so on. You can find more here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/massaveDamageThresholdsAndResults.htm)
bondious 06-29-06, 08:05 PM	I like the "Scaling The Saving Throw" option above. Something I've always thought of implementing but never really had to. I DO have another example of where Death by Massive Damage is viable. Some time ago one of my players, a 13th or so level Rogue, got a critical hit from a slightly tweeked out Bronze Serpent (from the 3.0 MM2). She hadn't gotten hit the entire combat, due both to luck and a pretty high AC, but her luck finally failed and she got hit for like 55 damage or something. I had her make a laughable "Massive Damage" roll, and we all giggled...until the die came up with a "1"! No laughing matter NOW since it threw a Monkey Wrench into my game! Anyhow, it got resolved (by a group devoted to Tyr coming to investigate the battle), and the player did a pretty cool drawing of the scene sometime after the game. Pretty funny, the ONLY time massive damage has come up in one of my games, and a character died. And her Fortitude save really wasn't THAT bad!
runestar 06-30-06, 12:32 AM	Seriously, a hit dealing 50+ damage to a 18th lv fighter should be the equivalent of a normal blow - hurts, but hardly life-threatening. It's roughly the same as a 1st lv fighter taking a sword hit doing 6-7 damage. At higher lvs, death by massive damage should hardly be an issue at all, IMO. :P
tridiak 06-30-06, 03:09 AM	Another possible tweaking is the save DC is dmg/2-10
kjenks 06-30-06, 08:37 AM	The Death by Massive Damage rule makes high level combats much more deadly, since even a wimpy level 6 spell (Maximize Spell + Fireball) triggers it in a bunch of opponents. I've seen creatures with 450+ HP dropped by a single attack.
Vlad74205 06-30-06, 11:23 PM	The reason why I was hoping it would be a bigger save is because the DM and I have planned out a story arch that will have my character turning evil around 13-16th level. It can highten the excitement of the game because it pits the characters against each other. It becomes more likely that one will die in battle, as well as trying to figure out what your opponent will do. This same thing happend when I was playing the Star Wars RPG. We got up into the higher levels, and our characters were disgustingly powerful. The DM was having a lot of trouble coming up with something to throw at us that we wouldn't obliterate. Then, we thought of having one of us go evil. I found a little known (for my group) force ability that would allow my character to take over someone else's body when mine died. One on five didn't give my character much of a chance. However, I was able to hurt them badly before they "killed" me. They were all laughing until I finally quieted them down enough to declare what I was doing. It was great having them trying to stop the body I stole without killing me, and subsequently the character whose body I stole.
Crimson_Concerto 06-30-06, 11:33 PM	Wow, peopel actually use the massive damage rule? :uh-huh: I've played with like 7 DM, and only 1 has ever used it. In that DM's campaign, I had somewhere around 300 HP, level 20. I take damage I'm well capable of dealing with, roll an unlucky natural 1 and just simply die when I'm still somewhere between 80%-85% HP? Absurd! :noway: Maybe it's just that I don't get it, but what is the purpose of this rule? I don't see it balancing the game in any way...
ShinAkuma2 07-01-06, 12:14 AM	Wow, peopel actually use the massive damage rule? :uh-huh: I've played with like 7 DM, and only 1 has ever used it. In that DM's campaign, I had somewhere around 300 HP, level 20. I take damage I'm well capable of dealing with, roll an unlucky natural 1 and just simply die when I'm still somewhere between 80%-85% HP? Absurd! :noway: Maybe it's just that I don't get it, but what is the purpose of this rule? I don't see it balancing the game in any way... It's not balancing. Life isn't balancing, either, but sometimes you really do just go into shock and die after being maimed.
runestar 07-01-06, 12:58 AM	To add a little more suspense to the game? Now 400hp barbs won't just yawn as the enemy mage torches them for 100+ damage - they might actually exprience a flicker of doubt due to the uncertainty of rolling a 1... :D
Vlad74205 07-01-06, 01:26 AM	Wow, peopel actually use the massive damage rule? :uh-huh: I've played with like 7 DM, and only 1 has ever used it. In that DM's campaign, I had somewhere around 300 HP, level 20. I take damage I'm well capable of dealing with, roll an unlucky natural 1 and just simply die when I'm still somewhere between 80%-85% HP? Absurd! :noway: Maybe it's just that I don't get it, but what is the purpose of this rule? I don't see it balancing the game in any way... Its falvorful. It makes it more realistic. In real life, if you would have 2 feet of cold steel pushed through you, there's a chance that you are going to die from the wound; EVEN if you were a legendary character like Hercules or King Arthur. Think of it as if your character was just stabbed, and a lot of blood comes spurting out.
Bob Loblaw 07-01-06, 01:42 AM	It is also one of those things that can stop a frenzied berserker, 5% of the time. It's the Save or Die that warriors get to use too. Personally, I don't use it often because I don't like to kill PCs in such a cheap way. I do use it for the NPCs sometimes. It all depends on the mood of the game and players.
dndfencer 07-01-06, 09:23 PM	does massive damage apply to dmg/ round or just to single lot of dmg? There's arguments for both. Personally, I'd go with per round because then fighters of a high enough level get a balance with magic users, they have a save or die 'spell'. Per hit would mean that two handed weapons and two weapon fighting are more evenly balanced (lets face it, two weapon fighting is much better) because two handed weapons are more likely to succeed in doing enough damage.
Vlad74205 07-01-06, 10:23 PM	does massive damage apply to dmg/ round or just to single lot of dmg? There's arguments for both. Personally, I'd go with per round because then fighters of a high enough level get a balance with magic users, they have a save or die 'spell'. Per hit would mean that two handed weapons and two weapon fighting are more evenly balanced (lets face it, two weapon fighting is much better) because two handed weapons are more likely to succeed in doing enough damage. Death by Massive Damage rolls are triggered of off a single attack. As per DMG 3.5, a medium size character (move up or down 10 per size difference) that is dealt 50 or more damage in a single attack must make a FORT save or die. Apparandtly, the DC is only 15. However, people above have mentioned alternate formats that can be used for it.
tui 07-01-06, 10:33 PM	I also don't like the massive damage rules.. sure, it might be more "realistic" and "flavorful", but it definately favors monsters over PCs.. I think it is pretty reasonable to expect to receive 50+ points of damage at higher levels fairly often, especially in campaign with highly optimized characters. And to have a 1/20 chance that it kills you seems pretty lame... statistically, I think it makes it WAY too easy to die. Maybe in a campaign where 50+ points of damage is REALLY rare.. or the threshhold and/or DC needs to change with levels. Also of note, I seem to remember stumbling across a feat somewhere (PHII?) recently that among other things made it so you didn't fail a fort save on a 1. If you play with massive damage, this feat becomes a no-brainer for higher-level fighters who have the feats to burn..
runestar 07-01-06, 11:04 PM	You could houserule that the massive damage threshold increases with lv. :) Seriously, 50 is a lot of damage, even to a 400+hp fighter, by real life standards. It's understandable that the body would not be able to continuously handle such stress...
Grasshopper_ea 07-01-06, 11:11 PM	Think of death by massive damage as getting hurt enough to throw you into shock. It's a critical hit of sorts in that you got hit in a vulnerable place so you may have 80-85% of your hps left but you lost your jugular and now you are dead by no blood left. I think it's a great rule but I think the DC should be based on damage taken and not a straight DC 15.