Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OneArmedassassin 01-05-05, 02:21 PM	I know subdual damage is supposed to be considered "nonleathal" damage, but I know in real life that someone could definitely be beaten to death. All people I know do subdual damage according to the rules it would seem that maybe there should be some way to deal a large amount of subdual damage and thus kill someone. Maybe this is one of those "don't apply real life to a fantasy game" situations, or maybe I just missed something. Anyone have any ideas? OneArmed
Nephlite 01-05-05, 02:24 PM	I know subdual damage is supposed to be considered "nonleathal" damage, but I know in real life that someone could definitely be beaten to death. All people I know do subdual damage according to the rules it would seem that maybe there should be some way to deal a large amount of subdual damage and thus kill someone. Maybe this is one of those "don't apply real life to a fantasy game" situations, or maybe I just missed something. Anyone have any ideas? OneArmed Well the rules say that if you deal 50 or more damage from one attack than it requires a Fort save. If they fail they die regardless of life. So if you can deal 50 subdual/nonlethal damage good for you.
Kyy'Dakh 01-05-05, 02:54 PM	For nonlethal, I would argue that the 50+ nonlethal damage could cause a knockout, rather than death. Here's one idea I thought of last time this issue came up: After nonlethal damage puts you at effectively -10, any new nonlethal damage is converted to lethal.
Gold Katana 01-05-05, 03:00 PM	If you wish to nod your head at realism in this area, you could rule that after reaching uncosciousness further nonlethal damage requires a Fort Save v damage taken. Failure results in lethal damage.
masterofmayhem 01-05-05, 07:41 PM	I believe you can take a -4 to your attack to deal lethal damage. Assume that anyone beating another peron to death is taking this penalty. After all, if they're curled up on the ground or unconscious, they can't miss too easily.
shift244 01-05-05, 08:22 PM	In the game, I often deal non-leathal when: - I want to take the target alive - I have no choice (like trolls) - Perhaps there' are other cases, but that's not really the point The point, is that the rules for non-leathal are mainly there (as far as the discussion is concerned) for the first case. Beating someone to the death would be closer to master of mayhem's interpretation, of taking -4 after the poor fella succumbs to the non-leathal damage. Anyway, I do not recall any rules indicating taking more subdual damage than your current HP until the point of -10. The interpretation as to what happens I would thence think is free? Perhaps any extra attack would deal leathal (ie the -11th point of nonleathal damage is yout 1st point of leathal damage)?
masterofmayhem 01-05-05, 08:28 PM	By the rules, you can continue taking nonlethal damage well past your normal hit points. So you could have 5,468,138,351,891 nonlethal damage, even if you only had 35 hit points. This could be considered akin to a coma, I suppose.
Voldenuit 01-05-05, 08:51 PM	Maybe this is one of those "don't apply real life to a fantasy game" situations, or maybe I just missed something. Anyone have any ideas? Lethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Nonlethal Damage: You can use a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, including an unarmed strike, to deal lethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. You could also treat it the same as subdual damage dealt by environmental hazards. Once a character is rendered unconcsious by nonlethal damage, he starts taking normal damage.
Edymnion 01-05-05, 09:44 PM	Yes, you beat them down with subdual damage until they go unconcious. Then, since they aren't moving, you're pretty much guarenteed to hit, so you take the -4 and start doing lethal damage. Thats how you beat someone to death in D&D.
Ranger REG 01-05-05, 09:48 PM	I know subdual damage is supposed to be considered "nonleathal" damage, but I know in real life that someone could definitely be beaten to death. All people I know do subdual damage according to the rules it would seem that maybe there should be some way to deal a large amount of subdual damage and thus kill someone. Maybe this is one of those "don't apply real life to a fantasy game" situations, or maybe I just missed something. Anyone have any ideas? [Houserule] If you prefer the accidental death by beating then consider the following: A natural 20 on the Attack roll can convert a nonlethal damage into lethal damage if you successfully make the Threat roll. Otherwise, if the PC continues to beat the victim after he was knocked unconscious then the PC's intention is to beat him to death. Apply Coup de Grace rule.
infideli 01-05-05, 10:35 PM	-When your non-lethal damage equals your CURRENT hit points, you are "staggered" just like if your hitpoints went to zero. -When your non-lethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. -When your non-lethal damage exceeds your full hit point total, the subdual damage becomes real damage. Wali has 12 hp full healed, but he was knifed for 2 damage earlier and is currently at 10 HP. A monk bludgeons him for a few rounds and eventually does 10 non-lethal damage. Wali is staggered now and can only take move/standard actions (partial actions in 3.0). If Wali is hit for 2 damage from a dart, his hit points drop to 8 and he falls unconscious because his non-lethal damage (10) exceeds his current hitpoints. The monk punches Wali to make sure that he is not faking unconsciousness... doing 2 more points for a total of 12 non-lethal. This equals his full hit point value and any more non-lethal damage will count as real damage. You can be beaten to death, after all. It is a little more demonstrative when Wali has 50 hitpoints fully healed and was at 10 points before being pummeled with non-lethal. 10 points of nonlethal would stagger him, but not start to hurt at all until they did a total of 50 points non-lethal. Umm.... G
masterofmayhem 01-06-05, 06:56 PM	-When your non-lethal damage equals your CURRENT hit points, you are "staggered" just like if your hitpoints went to zero. Not quite. staggered Having nonlethal damage exactly equal to current hit points. A staggered character may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can she take full-round actions). A character whose current hit points exceed his nonlethal damage is no longer staggered; a character whose nonlethal damage exceeds his hit points becomes unconscious. disabled At exactly 0 current hit points, or in negative hit points but stable and conscious. A disabled character may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can she take full-round actions). She moves at half speed. Taking move actions doesn't risk further injury, but performing any standard action (or any other action the DM deems strenuous, including some free actions such as casting a quickened spell) deals 1 point of damage after the completion of the act. Unless the action increased the disabled character's hit points, she is now in negative hit points and dying. A disabled character with negative hit points recovers hit points naturally if she is being helped. Otherwise, each day she has a 10% chance to start recovering hit points naturally (starting with that day); otherwise, she loses 1 hit point. Once an unaided character starts recovering hit points naturally, she is no longer in danger of losing hit points (even if her current hit points are negative). -When your non-lethal damage exceeds your full hit point total, the subdual damage becomes real damage. Are you stating this as a house-rule, or as an actual rule?
infideli 01-06-05, 10:29 PM	Not quite. Are you stating this as a house-rule, or as an actual rule? It is the original rule, but I should clarify: once your subdual damage equals your full hitpoints, any additional subdual damage is real/normal damage. Basic rules were "simplified" out of existence over the 3's or just taken out of the core books and stuck in books that I don't buy. Everything not yet covered in the new releases has to be a house rule, doesn't it. But it seems pretty obvious that something was left out when the current rules allow that you can be pummelled/bludgeoned/punched and take non-lethal damage a thousand times your max hitpoints and never die from it. G
Mirtek 01-07-05, 05:09 AM	Everything not yet covered in the new releases has to be a house rule, doesn't it. But it seems pretty obvious that something was left out when the current rules allow that you can be pummelled/bludgeoned/punched and take non-lethal damage a thousand times your max hitpoints and never die from it. So it's no longer in the 3.5 rules? Then it's not an official rule anymore. You could indeed taker 1,000 non-lethal damage and would not die (except if ypu starve while your still not awake again) Like said above, the only way to kill someone with non-lethal damage: There is no way ! Beat them until they're down, than CdG them (as a CdG is an automatic hit, the -4 penalty doesn`t matter anymore)
Thelon Fairblade 01-07-05, 08:27 AM	You recover (LEVEL) hp of nonlethal per hour. 72 hours (3 days) is about the maximum of how long someone can survive without water. So (72 * victim's level) is how much nonlethal damage you need to inflict beyond his maximum hp to kill him. :-) Otherwise, yeah, use the "-4 to hit = lethal damage" rule.
Kyy'Dakh 01-07-05, 11:02 AM	I think I'll avoid that house rule I was considering. Taking -4 to deal lethal damage with your (unimproved) unarmed strike didn't occur to me until earlier posters brought it up.
masterofmayhem 01-07-05, 06:38 PM	It is the original rule, but I should clarify: once your subdual damage equals your full hitpoints, any additional subdual damage is real/normal damage. Basic rules were "simplified" out of existence over the 3's or just taken out of the core books and stuck in books that I don't buy. Everything not yet covered in the new releases has to be a house rule, doesn't it. But it seems pretty obvious that something was left out when the current rules allow that you can be pummelled/bludgeoned/punched and take non-lethal damage a thousand times your max hitpoints and never die from it. G As Mirtek said, if it was a rule in an earlier edition but is no longer a rule in 3.X, it doesn't just carry over. Anything not mentioned in the rules most likely means it is not a rule. WotC wouldn't expect people to even know that rule, much less use it, unless they reprinted it. Not everyone has played earlier editions, you know. Heh, with that "basic" rule, it would be near impossible for a high-level rogue to knock out a 1st level guard. He'd have no choice but to kill him. ;)
Edymnion 01-08-05, 12:14 AM	-When your non-lethal damage exceeds your full hit point total, the subdual damage becomes real damage.Whoah Nelly, stop right there. So, by that logic, a normal hit with a sap is enough to kill a commoner, not knock him out. 1d6+Str, vs. at MOST 4 hitpoints on that commoner, the average damage from the sap alone is 3.5, which would put said commoner down to 0 hp in one hit. If you have a strength bonus, or god forbid you're a rogue using a sneak attack, the sap would deal lethal damage immediantly. Uh uh. If you're going to do this, make it that any amount of non-lethal over max hp becomes lethal. As in if they have 10 hp, and you non-lethal Sneak attack them for 12, they take 10 points of subdual and 2 points of lethal. If they have 10 hp max, have taken 5 points of lethal damage already, and take 12 more subdual, they still take 10 points of non-lethal and 2 points of lethal. Otherwise, you totally eliminate the usefulness of non-lethal damage.
Neofish 01-08-05, 12:23 AM	Whoah Nelly, stop right there. So, by that logic, a normal hit with a sap is enough to kill a commoner, not knock him out. 1d6+Str, vs. at MOST 4 hitpoints on that commoner, the average damage from the sap alone is 3.5, which would put said commoner down to 0 hp in one hit. If you have a strength bonus, or god forbid you're a rogue using a sneak attack, the sap would deal lethal damage immediantly. Uh uh. If you're going to do this, make it that any amount of non-lethal over max hp becomes lethal. As in if they have 10 hp, and you non-lethal Sneak attack them for 12, they take 10 points of subdual and 2 points of lethal. If they have 10 hp max, have taken 5 points of lethal damage already, and take 12 more subdual, they still take 10 points of non-lethal and 2 points of lethal. Otherwise, you totally eliminate the usefulness of non-lethal damage. Well, that was the 3.0 RAW, but alas, it doesn't seem to be in 3.5, unless i've overlooked it... Subdual damage and regular damage are track differently, you have to deal twice as much damage with subdual damge to kill someone with it. Using your commoner for example, say he has 4 HP, you need to deal 4 points of subdual damge to render him at 0, if you continue to hit him, you have to deal another 4 points of damge to render him at 0 on the lethal level. So yes, a rogue with sneak attack would most likly deal some real damge on a commoner aswell as knock them out.
masterofmayhem 01-09-05, 03:36 PM	Using your commoner for example, say he has 4 HP, you need to deal 4 points of subdual damge to render him at 0, if you continue to hit him, you have to deal another 4 points of damge to render him at 0 on the lethal level. Not totally sure what you're saying here, but I think I get most of it. First off, you're a little off in how you track lethal and nonlethal damage. Nonlethal damage is tracked in terms of "nonlethal damage done" (i.e., said commoner has 4 points of non-lethal damage). Lethal damage (in order to avoid confusion and work with nonlethal the best) should be tracked as "HP remaining" (i.e., "commoner has 1 HP remaining," not "commoner has 3 lethal damage"). That way when the PHB says that you are staggered when you have "nonlethal damage exactly equal to current hit points." it actually works. So 4 points of nonlethal damage has that commoner still at 4 HPs (assuming he has 4 HP normally). He is then staggered, since he has "nonlethal damage exactly equal to current hit points." If he takes another point of either lethal or nonlethal damage, he will be unconscious.