Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hakuman 03-06-07, 07:12 AM	Hi, just wondered if you could comment on this? Against a bunch of undead our party druid cast the 5th level spell "Death Ward" to protect the main fighter: "the subject is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects.." We found ourselves up against a ghost and some wraiths. Then the DM dropped the bombshell.. "Although wights, shadows, vampires, liches etc.. specifically say that there is an "energy drain" or a "negative energy effect", the same is not true for wraiths and or ghosts..! hence it offered no protection vs the wraiths con drain, or the ghosts "draining touch".. hence it offered no protection. Is this an accurate ruling on the rules as written?
Bopple 03-06-07, 07:26 AM	As RAW, your DM is right. And there is Sheltered Vitality, a 4th lvl spell which protects you from ability damage and drain. But then again, it's a bit weird, still. Why only wraiths and ghosts are omitted? It can be a mistake, considering the fact that Enervation spell can actually bestow negative levels on undeads, as RAW. They might have just omitted them by mistake, taking it for granted.
hakuman 03-06-07, 08:57 AM	Ta for this.. we used to use "Negative Energy Protection" in 3.0 which specifically lists wraiths..! but he persuaded us to go to 3.5 and pointed out that "Death ward did more than it did before!!".. (and Negative Energy Protection was gone..) Oh.. and he only plays core rulebooks with Errata, so now there is no defence to the wraiths permament con drain!!
CaptainPicard 03-06-07, 09:25 AM	I've seen this kind of behaviour out of DMs. He's angry over the fact that you beat his encounter by essentially making yourself invincible (although wraiths are actually highly intelligent and would have quickly realized their energy drain attacks are useless on the Fighter). I saw it before with a guy who approved my friend's usage of the Swordsage unarmed variant, then said that it only specified unarmed damage "like the Monk", and therefore he needed Improved Unarmed Strike to deal lethal damage. I would honestly not play with someone who does this, as it encourages the players to be rules lawyers and sucks the fun out of the game. In the end, there is nothing you can do; if he wants to hit you guys with pretty much anything in the game, and he's willing to go to these lengths to do so, it's going to succeed. By RAW, if a DM really wants to be evil, you can pretty much always make an encounter the PCs can't get around.
Thiez 03-06-07, 10:03 AM	As RAW, your DM is right. And there is Sheltered Vitality, a 4th lvl spell which protects you from ability damage and drain. But then again, it's a bit weird, still. Why only wraiths and ghosts are omitted? It can be a mistake, considering the fact that Enervation spell can actually bestow negative levels on undeads, as RAW. They might have just omitted them by mistake, taking it for granted. Actually, the undead type bestows immunity to energy drain, which is pretty much the same thing as negative levels. I guess this will be read differently by different DMs. There's more strange stuff with Wraiths. Dread Wraiths are supposed to be ancient wraiths, but at some point, they've lost their turn resistance :P
Bopple 03-06-07, 10:07 AM	No, undeads are not immune to negative levels. That is RAW. And that's what his DM is using. Furthermore, there are certain good-aligned items which bestows negative levels on evil creatures. I am quite certain that undeads should be susceptible to those items.
Thiez 03-06-07, 10:24 AM	Yeah, sure. And should these negative levels kill them, they'll come back as a wight the next midnight. :D Actually, it's a good way to turn a ghost into a corporeal undead, so he's easier to ressurect (you don't have to look for the body).
Bopple 03-06-07, 10:39 AM	Yeah, perhaps. That's RAW. Though most dm would rule it otherwise.
Lamorake 03-06-07, 10:47 AM	No, undeads are not immune to negative levels. That is RAW. And that's what his DM is using. Furthermore, there are certain good-aligned items which bestows negative levels on evil creatures. I am quite certain that undeads should be susceptible to those items. Per RAW, Undead are immune to negative levels. It states it under the Undead Type information. Here's the pertinent text per SRD: Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects. Energy drain is what bestows negative levels. They are not subject to that. To further prove the point, there's a specfic magic item, Life Drinker that bestows negative levels on the user and victims struck by it. It states that it is the preferred weapon of undead and constructs... why? Because negative levels don't affect them.
Bopple 03-06-07, 10:48 AM	No, energy drain != negative levels. As I said, there are aligned items which bestows negative levels when the creatures with the opposite alignment wear them. And life drinker is another example of foolishness of RAW.
Lamorake 03-06-07, 10:55 AM	No, energy drain != negative levels. As I said, there are aligned items which bestows negative levels when the creatures with the opposite alignment wear them. And life drinker is another example of foolishness of RAW. Yes, energy drain and negative levels go hand-in-hand. I will quote another piece of RAW here for you from the "Special Abilities and Conditions" section of the SRD: Energy Drained: The character gains one or more negative levels, which might permanently drain the characterÂ’s levels. If the subject has at least as many negative levels as Hit Dice, he dies. Each negative level gives a creature the following penalties: –1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks; loss of 5 hit points; and –1 to effective level (for determining the power, duration, DC, and other details of spells or special abilities). In addition, a spellcaster loses one spell or spell slot from the highest spell level castable. Alos see Energy Drain and Negative Levels. To further make the point, look up the arcane spell, Energy Drain. It bestows negative levels. There's no mistaking the meaning. Also, what is the driving force behind undead? They are negative energy creatures. That's why they are harmed by positive energy from healing spells. It wouldn't make sense that negative energy would hurt them. Even per their description, negative energy can actually heal them.
Bopple 03-06-07, 10:57 AM	No, if you have learned logics, you'd know it's not the same thing. I am a man. Does that mean man is Bopple? Hell no. And as I said, there are magic items which bestows negative levels on creatures with the opposite alignment. For example, a holy avenger bestows a negative level on the evil creatures. Are you saying a holy avenger has an energy drain effect?
Thiez 03-06-07, 11:02 AM	Since positive/negative energy does not have an alignment, I don't see why a holy avenger shouldn't have negative energy.
Bopple 03-06-07, 11:04 AM	As RAW, it shouldn't, because it does not say it has. As RAI, it shouldn't, because it is ridiculous, if it had.
Lamorake 03-06-07, 11:06 AM	All I am saying is that undead types are immune to negative level loss through energy drain, which is 100% true per RAW. I don't need any logic courses here, I'm just reading what was written. 1) Energy drain causes negative level loss (special abilities and conditions section) 2) Undead are immune to energy drain (Undead Type description)
Bopple 03-06-07, 11:08 AM	To be precise, undeads are immune to negative level through energy drain, because it says they are immune to energy drain. It's not because it's immune to negative level itself.
Lamorake 03-06-07, 11:19 AM	For example, a holy avenger bestows a negative level on the evil creatures. Are you saying a holy avenger has an energy drain effect? No where does it state that the Holy Avenger bestows negative level loss or any level loss whatsoever. Here's the description of the Holy Avenger: Holy Avenger: This +2 cold iron longsword becomes a +5 holy cold iron longsword in the hands of a paladin. It provides spell resistance of 5 + the paladin’s level to the wielder and anyone adjacent to her. It also enables the wielder to use greater dispel magic (once per round as a standard action) at the class level of the paladin. (Only the area dispel is possible, not the targeted dispel or counterspell versions of greater dispel magic.) Strong abjuration; CL 18th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, holy aura, creator must be good; Price 120,630 gp; Cost 60,630 gp + 4,800 XP. One thing you need to examine is whether something caused level loss or whether it causes negative level loss. Those are two different scenarios. Negative level loss is assosciated with energy drain, where as simple level loss can be associated with alignment conflicting items. They are two different beasts.
Bopple 03-06-07, 11:24 AM	You'd better check 'Holy' weapon special ability. I took holy avenger as an example, as the epitome of holy weapons. But yeah, holy avenger is not a holy weapon in the hands of undeads. I was wrong about that.
Bopple 03-06-07, 11:25 AM	BTW, Thiez, undeads cannot come back as wight, after killed with negative levels. Because they cannot be killed. They are to be destroyed.
Lamorake 03-06-07, 11:31 AM	You'd better check 'Holy' weapon special ability. I took holy avenger as an example, as the epitome of holy weapons. The Holy Avenger only become a Holy weapon in the hands of a paladin. In the hands of any other it's simply a +2 cold iron longsword. Therefore, it wouldn't bestow any level loss. The negative level bestowed by the Holy descriptor isn't an actual level loss and automatically disappears when contact in relinquished. (per description) So in essence, it isn't true negative level losss.
Bopple 03-06-07, 11:33 AM	What are you talking about? There is no such thing as negative level loss. Don't make up things out of nothing. Geez, I am sick of people who deny everything no matter what. PS) If you a 'lose' negative level, logically, it means you gain a positive level. Whatever it may mean, in D&D.
Thiez 03-06-07, 11:48 AM	BTW, Thiez, undeads cannot come back as wight, after killed with negative levels. Because they cannot be killed. They are to be destroyed. Heh, by RAW, neither. "If the subject has at least as many negative levels as Hit Dice, he dies.". Since the undead is already dead, it cannot die, and can accumulate as many negative levels as it likes.
Selgard 03-06-07, 11:57 AM	The problem is that there is more than one way to acquire a "negative level". There is Energy Drain, And there is the negative level acquired by holding an alignment-opposed weapon/item. Undead are specifically immune to "Energy Drain" and it's effects. They are not, however, immune to acquiring Negative Levels.
cwslyclgh 03-06-07, 12:11 PM	bopples argument doesn't hold much water when you consider that the lifedrinker does not mention energy drain anyplace, but says : Life-Drinker: This +1 greataxe is favored by undead and constructs, who do not suffer its drawback. A life-drinker bestows two negative levels on its target whenever it deals damage, just as if its target had been struck by an undead creature. One day after being struck, subjects must make a DC 16 Fortitude save for each negative level or lose a character level. Each time a life-drinker deals damage to a foe, it also bestows one negative level on the wielder. Any negative level gained by the wielder in this fashion lasts for 1 hour. immunity to energy drain = immunity to negative levels under the rules.
RavenDrake 03-06-07, 01:49 PM	bopples argument doesn't hold much water when you consider that the lifedrinker does not mention energy drain anyplace, but says : Life-Drinker: This +1 greataxe is favored by undead and constructs, who do not suffer its drawback. A life-drinker bestows two negative levels on its target whenever it deals damage, just as if its target had been struck by an undead creature. One day after being struck, subjects must make a DC 16 Fortitude save for each negative level or lose a character level. Each time a life-drinker deals damage to a foe, it also bestows one negative level on the wielder. Any negative level gained by the wielder in this fashion lasts for 1 hour. immunity to energy drain = immunity to negative levels under the rules. I think you missed the more pertinent portion of that text: A life-drinker bestows two negative levels on its target whenever it deals damage, just as if its target had been struck by an undead creature. Undead deal negative levels via energy drain, which is why the Lifedrinker does not effect undead creatures who weild it. Lifedrinker's power is an energy drain effect. Note that, technically speaking, any bestowment of negative levels that MAY result in permenant level loss is an energy drain effect, regardless of whether it comes from an undead or not. Aligned weapons which give negative levels to opposed alignment creatures never result in permenant level drain, and thus are not (so far as I know) considered energy drain effects. As for the OP's question, I have to agree with your DM. He wasn't being spiteful or mean, he was enforcing the rules as written. The spell clearly covers what it does and does not do. The subject is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects. This spell doesn’t remove negative levels that the subject has already gained, nor does it affect the saving throw necessary 24 hours after gaining a negative level. Death ward does not protect against other sorts of attacks even if those attacks might be lethal. While Constitution drain is certanly very leathal, it is not a negative energy effect, a death effect, or an energy drain. Death Ward would have no more effect on it than it would on the constitution drain from a Poison or Disease.
hakuman 03-06-07, 02:04 PM	As for the OP's question, I have to agree with your DM. He wasn't being spiteful or mean, he was enforcing the rules as written. The spell clearly covers what it does and does not do. While Constitution drain is certanly very leathal, it is not a negative energy effect, a death effect, or an energy drain. Death Ward would have no more effect on it than it would on the constitution drain from a Poison or Disease. Though its interesting in 3.0 that PHB page 231 says that Negative Energy Protection protects against "..undead creatures who use negative energy (such as shadows, wights, wraiths, spectres, or vampires).." Even though the 3.0 MM also does not mention "Energy Drain" or "Negative Energy" in the description of the wraith... This spell was superceded by "Death Ward" in 3.5 so this caveat is lost.