Decanter of Endless Water and Vampires? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Decanter of Endless Water and Vampires? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gleddon
11-15-05, 12:43 AM Okay, I have this situation. A player in my group thinks that she could use a Decanter of Endless Water against a vampire, and that it would act as if the vampire was immersed in water (as described under ways to slay a vampire) when set to "geyser". She had another DM allow her to do this in the past, but some of our friends have had some doubts as to whether or not this works.

So, any thoughts as to whether it would or would not work, and why? Thanks in advance!
Seeker of Undeath
11-15-05, 01:04 AM Okay, I have this situation. A player in my group thinks that she could use a Decanter of Endless Water against a vampire, and that it would act as if the vampire was immersed in water (as described under ways to slay a vampire) when set to "geyser". She had another DM allow her to do this in the past, but some of our friends have had some doubts as to whether or not this works.

So, any thoughts as to whether it would or would not work, and why? Thanks in advance!I'd say that it doesn't work, because it's not a naturally occurring phenomenon. My understanding of the difficulty with running water, garlic, and such was that it is due to a vampire's impure and unnatural state.

Water, that which gives life, rejects them. The decanter, on the other hand, is a magical effect. And in the end I'd be more than willing to simply say "that's just too stinking cheap, but thanks for the creativity".
Dioxin
11-15-05, 01:42 AM I'd say that it doesn't work, because it's not a naturally occurring phenomenon. My understanding of the difficulty with running water, garlic, and such was that it is due to a vampire's impure and unnatural state.

Water, that which gives life, rejects them. The decanter, on the other hand, is a magical effect. And in the end I'd be more than willing to simply say "that's just too stinking cheap, but thanks for the creativity".
The decanter creating water might be a magical effect, but the water itself functions just as water from any other natural source. If running water from a magical item doesn't harm a vampire simply because it's not "natural", then neither should magically created sunlight. A DM might overrule 0 due to personal metaphysical reasoning but the RAW says nothing on disallowing it. A lot of actions in D&D are "cheap", but they work by the rules and disallowing them would again be invoking rule 0. This is neither an inherently good or bad thing and depends on the DM's plans and the group's style of play.

Gleddon, I'd say allow it if you want to reward innovation or disallow it if it's important gamewise for the party to not sidestep a hard fight. The rules in the book don't say she can't, but the final say is still the DM's.
Silimaure
11-15-05, 03:57 AM Go get a firehose, spray the player, and ask if they were fully immersed.
shadowsofwhite
11-15-05, 03:58 AM this usage of the decanter is not quite specific enough to do what she's trying to do. She's effectively spraying the vamp with a fire hose, which according to game rules, unless it's a decanter of unlimited holy water, it will do nothing. If you trap the vamp in a pit, however, and fill the pit with the vamp inside, this will do the trick and drown the bugger.

The answer to what you are asking, is no, she can't use the decanter to do that, she has to do some pretty tricky things to do what she's wanting.
theAlastorian
11-15-05, 12:18 PM The purpose of running water against a vampire comes from ancient folklore stating that a vampire's cling to it's own soul is so tenuous that even the motion of running water will rip it out of the creature's grasp and send it's soul into hell. It has nothing much to do with the 'purity' of the water itself. You want purity? That's where the holy water comes in. It's the purity of faith that kills a vampire in more modern tales. But the running water idea comes from a more primeval time. I'd say that the decanter would weaken the vamp, but not destroy it.
Gleddon
11-15-05, 04:47 PM The purpose of running water against a vampire comes from ancient folklore stating that a vampire's cling to it's own soul is so tenuous that even the motion of running water will rip it out of the creature's grasp and send it's soul into hell. It has nothing much to do with the 'purity' of the water itself. You want purity? That's where the holy water comes in. It's the purity of faith that kills a vampire in more modern tales. But the running water idea comes from a more primeval time. I'd say that the decanter would weaken the vamp, but not destroy it.

Yes, that's what I'm leaning towards. We realize that the amount of water is certainly not enough to immerse a vampire from head to toe (unless maybe I used a fine sized vampire... :rolleyes: ). I think that I may have the Decanter deal less damage over time or perhaps simply give the vampire some penalty. Thanks for the replies. :)
bondious
11-15-05, 05:51 PM How about something as simple as making the Vampire vulnerable to regular weapons (remove its DR) after being hit by the geyser function, for one round, and maybe a concentration check would be required to use its spell-like abilities.

Just a thought.

[EDIT]

I was just thinking, and maybe this has been thought up before, but could you put like an arrow or bolt inside the Decanter of Endless Water and, when using the geyser function, would the blast of water be enough to propel the projectile and deal extra damage? Maybe require an attack roll (with a possible -4 for non-proficiency) and treat it like a heavy crossbow or something? Or maybe just a rock or sling bullet acting like a cork on a champagne bottle! That'd be funny. :D
Far_Traveler
11-15-05, 06:12 PM about that idea your player has, i must first say:

Brilliance.

from a DM's perspective, however, it depends:

Is this vamp an important villain?
do you plan to have a vamp as a villain in the future?

if yes to #1, disallow it.
If no to #1 but yes to #2, dissallow it, but then get rid of thier decanter next time beforehand, vamps are sneaky

If no to both, by all means go ahead, and get rid of the decanter next time they go up against an important vamp beforehand, and get rid of all random vamps.

oh, and give them an XP penalty, just a small one behind thier back

Ja ne!
Jaid
11-15-05, 07:17 PM I was just thinking, and maybe this has been thought up before, but could you put like an arrow or bolt inside the Decanter of Endless Water and, when using the geyser function, would the blast of water be enough to propel the projectile and deal extra damage? Maybe require an attack roll (with a possible -4 for non-proficiency) and treat it like a heavy crossbow or something? Or maybe just a rock or sling bullet acting like a cork on a champagne bottle! That'd be funny. :Drealistically, yes. i have no idea how to stat it out, mind you, but it should work...
Vaelan
11-15-05, 07:27 PM You aren't going to fully immerse a vampire in water by using a decanter of endless water, and thus it has no effect.
a4igeek
11-15-05, 08:16 PM Cough Cough.. Well I don't know much about Vampires but I do know a bit about water.

Decanter of endless water does damage on impact of the high volume of water.. not sure how much.

The water would not fully immerse the vampire unless in some kind of container as the water would bounce off the impacted surface. So no instant kill.

if you do the instant kill thing.. just give them squat exp.. that would teach them to be so cheap.

Remember though when using the geyser ability of the decanter that the holder needs to make checks so he/she (you know it is a he) can hold the thing in placeas the large volume of water pours out.
theAlastorian
11-15-05, 08:45 PM Actually, I'd give a little XP boost for being creative with the item. Not much of one, but something special since they used out of the box thinking to deal with the problem at hand.

And as to using the decanter as a ranged weapon (i.e. crossbow) I'd say if you even allow it (which I wouldn't) it would have much more than a -4 non proficiency penalty. It'd be more like -8 since you wouldn't really get to control the aim very well. It'd be almost impossible to hit a mark with an arrow. Grapeshot however....
Bob Loblaw
11-15-05, 09:29 PM From the SRD on vampires
...immersing a vampire in running water robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round of immersion.

From the SRD on Decanter of Endless Water
• “Geyser” produces a 20-foot-long, 1-foot-wide stream at 30 gallons per round.
The geyser effect causes considerable back pressure, requiring the holder to make a DC 12 Strength check to avoid being knocked down. The force of the geyser deals 1d4 points of damage but can only affect one target per round. The command word must be spoken to stop it.

Looking at the descriptions, I would say that you would deal 1d4 points of damage to the vampire unless the vampire is Tiny in which case it can then be considered immersed. However, if you wanted to be a nice DM you could allow the decanter to deal 33% of the vampire's hit points each round. Note that the vampire doesn't have to stand there and take it. He can still take actions, like getting out of the way.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gleddon 11-15-05, 12:43 AM	Okay, I have this situation. A player in my group thinks that she could use a Decanter of Endless Water against a vampire, and that it would act as if the vampire was immersed in water (as described under ways to slay a vampire) when set to "geyser". She had another DM allow her to do this in the past, but some of our friends have had some doubts as to whether or not this works. So, any thoughts as to whether it would or would not work, and why? Thanks in advance!
Seeker of Undeath 11-15-05, 01:04 AM	Okay, I have this situation. A player in my group thinks that she could use a Decanter of Endless Water against a vampire, and that it would act as if the vampire was immersed in water (as described under ways to slay a vampire) when set to "geyser". She had another DM allow her to do this in the past, but some of our friends have had some doubts as to whether or not this works. So, any thoughts as to whether it would or would not work, and why? Thanks in advance!I'd say that it doesn't work, because it's not a naturally occurring phenomenon. My understanding of the difficulty with running water, garlic, and such was that it is due to a vampire's impure and unnatural state. Water, that which gives life, rejects them. The decanter, on the other hand, is a magical effect. And in the end I'd be more than willing to simply say "that's just too stinking cheap, but thanks for the creativity".
Dioxin 11-15-05, 01:42 AM	I'd say that it doesn't work, because it's not a naturally occurring phenomenon. My understanding of the difficulty with running water, garlic, and such was that it is due to a vampire's impure and unnatural state. Water, that which gives life, rejects them. The decanter, on the other hand, is a magical effect. And in the end I'd be more than willing to simply say "that's just too stinking cheap, but thanks for the creativity". The decanter creating water might be a magical effect, but the water itself functions just as water from any other natural source. If running water from a magical item doesn't harm a vampire simply because it's not "natural", then neither should magically created sunlight. A DM might overrule 0 due to personal metaphysical reasoning but the RAW says nothing on disallowing it. A lot of actions in D&D are "cheap", but they work by the rules and disallowing them would again be invoking rule 0. This is neither an inherently good or bad thing and depends on the DM's plans and the group's style of play. Gleddon, I'd say allow it if you want to reward innovation or disallow it if it's important gamewise for the party to not sidestep a hard fight. The rules in the book don't say she can't, but the final say is still the DM's.
Silimaure 11-15-05, 03:57 AM	Go get a firehose, spray the player, and ask if they were fully immersed.
shadowsofwhite 11-15-05, 03:58 AM	this usage of the decanter is not quite specific enough to do what she's trying to do. She's effectively spraying the vamp with a fire hose, which according to game rules, unless it's a decanter of unlimited holy water, it will do nothing. If you trap the vamp in a pit, however, and fill the pit with the vamp inside, this will do the trick and drown the bugger. The answer to what you are asking, is no, she can't use the decanter to do that, she has to do some pretty tricky things to do what she's wanting.
theAlastorian 11-15-05, 12:18 PM	The purpose of running water against a vampire comes from ancient folklore stating that a vampire's cling to it's own soul is so tenuous that even the motion of running water will rip it out of the creature's grasp and send it's soul into hell. It has nothing much to do with the 'purity' of the water itself. You want purity? That's where the holy water comes in. It's the purity of faith that kills a vampire in more modern tales. But the running water idea comes from a more primeval time. I'd say that the decanter would weaken the vamp, but not destroy it.
Gleddon 11-15-05, 04:47 PM	The purpose of running water against a vampire comes from ancient folklore stating that a vampire's cling to it's own soul is so tenuous that even the motion of running water will rip it out of the creature's grasp and send it's soul into hell. It has nothing much to do with the 'purity' of the water itself. You want purity? That's where the holy water comes in. It's the purity of faith that kills a vampire in more modern tales. But the running water idea comes from a more primeval time. I'd say that the decanter would weaken the vamp, but not destroy it. Yes, that's what I'm leaning towards. We realize that the amount of water is certainly not enough to immerse a vampire from head to toe (unless maybe I used a fine sized vampire... :rolleyes: ). I think that I may have the Decanter deal less damage over time or perhaps simply give the vampire some penalty. Thanks for the replies. :)
bondious 11-15-05, 05:51 PM	How about something as simple as making the Vampire vulnerable to regular weapons (remove its DR) after being hit by the geyser function, for one round, and maybe a concentration check would be required to use its spell-like abilities. Just a thought. [EDIT] I was just thinking, and maybe this has been thought up before, but could you put like an arrow or bolt inside the Decanter of Endless Water and, when using the geyser function, would the blast of water be enough to propel the projectile and deal extra damage? Maybe require an attack roll (with a possible -4 for non-proficiency) and treat it like a heavy crossbow or something? Or maybe just a rock or sling bullet acting like a cork on a champagne bottle! That'd be funny. :D
Far_Traveler 11-15-05, 06:12 PM	about that idea your player has, i must first say: Brilliance. from a DM's perspective, however, it depends: Is this vamp an important villain? do you plan to have a vamp as a villain in the future? if yes to #1, disallow it. If no to #1 but yes to #2, dissallow it, but then get rid of thier decanter next time beforehand, vamps are sneaky If no to both, by all means go ahead, and get rid of the decanter next time they go up against an important vamp beforehand, and get rid of all random vamps. oh, and give them an XP penalty, just a small one behind thier back Ja ne!
Jaid 11-15-05, 07:17 PM	I was just thinking, and maybe this has been thought up before, but could you put like an arrow or bolt inside the Decanter of Endless Water and, when using the geyser function, would the blast of water be enough to propel the projectile and deal extra damage? Maybe require an attack roll (with a possible -4 for non-proficiency) and treat it like a heavy crossbow or something? Or maybe just a rock or sling bullet acting like a cork on a champagne bottle! That'd be funny. :Drealistically, yes. i have no idea how to stat it out, mind you, but it should work...
Vaelan 11-15-05, 07:27 PM	You aren't going to fully immerse a vampire in water by using a decanter of endless water, and thus it has no effect.
a4igeek 11-15-05, 08:16 PM	Cough Cough.. Well I don't know much about Vampires but I do know a bit about water. Decanter of endless water does damage on impact of the high volume of water.. not sure how much. The water would not fully immerse the vampire unless in some kind of container as the water would bounce off the impacted surface. So no instant kill. if you do the instant kill thing.. just give them squat exp.. that would teach them to be so cheap. Remember though when using the geyser ability of the decanter that the holder needs to make checks so he/she (you know it is a he) can hold the thing in placeas the large volume of water pours out.
theAlastorian 11-15-05, 08:45 PM	Actually, I'd give a little XP boost for being creative with the item. Not much of one, but something special since they used out of the box thinking to deal with the problem at hand. And as to using the decanter as a ranged weapon (i.e. crossbow) I'd say if you even allow it (which I wouldn't) it would have much more than a -4 non proficiency penalty. It'd be more like -8 since you wouldn't really get to control the aim very well. It'd be almost impossible to hit a mark with an arrow. Grapeshot however....
Bob Loblaw 11-15-05, 09:29 PM	From the SRD on vampires ...immersing a vampire in running water robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round of immersion. From the SRD on Decanter of Endless Water • “Geyser” produces a 20-foot-long, 1-foot-wide stream at 30 gallons per round. The geyser effect causes considerable back pressure, requiring the holder to make a DC 12 Strength check to avoid being knocked down. The force of the geyser deals 1d4 points of damage but can only affect one target per round. The command word must be spoken to stop it. Looking at the descriptions, I would say that you would deal 1d4 points of damage to the vampire unless the vampire is Tiny in which case it can then be considered immersed. However, if you wanted to be a nice DM you could allow the decanter to deal 33% of the vampire's hit points each round. Note that the vampire doesn't have to stand there and take it. He can still take actions, like getting out of the way.