Post/Author/DateTime	Post
shades of eternity 12-03-06, 09:46 AM	Decanter of endless water rocket pack? I got a kobold who took the dragonwrought advantage and has gliding wings. My character also has an obscene jump (+19) I also have a decanter of endless water. I have had a leather harness made so I can latch the decanter to my body. I can do this both to fire forward and to reverse to act as a rocket. How much propulsion can I get from a geyser? Can I get a low level flight using my wings to catch wind while blasting water? Can I use it to stay above the ground? What would the mechanics be for this?
Dheran 12-03-06, 10:29 AM	"Geyser" produces a 20-foot-long, 1-foot-wide stream at 30 gallons per round. A gallon is 8 lbs., and a round is 6 seconds, so that's 30*8/6 = 40 lbs./sec. What isn't known exactly is the pressure of the geyser. We know it's not much:The force of the geyser deals 1d4 points of damage but can only affect one target per round. 1d4 points of damage in 6 seconds is really meager. I think you'd barely notice the thrust from a single Decanter. Maybe if you got a couple dozen you might be in business, given that you're a skinny kobold with wings. Remember, it's a Decanter of Endless Water, not a Decanter of Endless Pressure.
Jay_Ibero_911 12-03-06, 01:13 PM	I like the idea though, reminds me of Super Mario Sunshine...
Kitaki 12-03-06, 01:16 PM	Considering you are a Kobold you wouldn't need much pressure. I'd let you fly 10 feet off the ground with that. Not enough to be unfair, but enough to be entertaining, but you must have some form of flight goggles.
Argon_Asimov 12-03-06, 01:32 PM	Yeah, you're gona want a nozzle to increase the exit pressure. 40lbs/sec is not a bad flow rate at all, but as Shades of Eternity said, its unknown how much pressure the decanter produces. Assuming it can shoot straight up, producing a geyser 20ft high and 1ft wide (A=.785ft^2), then that means it is essentially supporting a column of water about 16ft^3 in volume. The density of water is typically about 62.428lb/cu. ft. The exit pressure appears to be A(20)(62.428)/A ~= 8.7psi. I believe that many commonly-available waterguns achieve this degree of pressure. However, suppose you were able to nozzle that thing down to around one-tenth of the original exit area (the radius would be about 1.8 inches), and you're looking at about 87psi. No we're cooking with oil. Two of these things could easily, easily propel a kobold skyward. If you were really clever, you could even engineer the nozzles with over-laping metal flaps that slide across each other and are controlled by a single lever to widen or close the appeture in flight, giving you variable thrust for take-offs and landings. The in-game challenge will be to properly control these forces (which are poorly understood in most medieval settings). Testing will likely take weeks and months, even for a crafty kobold engineer, and will involve lots of parts-orders and possibly grievous bodily harm. Good luck!
Jay_Ibero_911 12-03-06, 01:42 PM	Yeah, you're gona want a nozzle to increase the exit pressure. 40lbs/sec is not a bad flow rate at all, but as Shades of Eternity said, its unknown how much pressure the decanter produces. Assuming it can shoot straight up, producing a geyser 20ft high and 1ft wide (A=.785ft^2), then that means it is essentially supporting a column of water about 16ft^3 in volume. The density of water is typically about 62.428lb/cu. ft. The exit pressure appears to be A(20)(62.428)/A ~= 8.7psi. I believe that many commonly-available waterguns achieve this degree of pressure. However, suppose you were able to nozzle that thing down to around one-tenth of the original exit area (the radius would be about 1.8 inches), and you're looking at about 87psi. No we're cooking with oil. Two of these things could easily, easily propel a kobold skyward. If you were really clever, you could even engineer the nozzles with over-laping metal flaps that slide across each other and are controlled by a single lever to widen or close the appeture in flight, giving you variable thrust for take-offs and landings. The in-game challenge will be to properly control these forces (which are poorly understood in most medieval settings). Testing will likely take weeks and months, even for a crafty kobold engineer, and will involve lots of parts-orders and possibly grievous bodily harm. Good luck! I like the way you think...a water hover pack like this sounds like a wondrous item that would fit perfectly into the Eberron campaign setting.
Someone 12-03-06, 01:49 PM	I think you would be better off with a decanter of endless steam. Less mess that way.
shades of eternity 12-03-06, 01:54 PM	well, the reason I think it's doable is that geyser requires a str check of 14 or be knocked down. That is why if redirected downage should give you additional leverage for jumping. also, could I twist and fire a geyser at another object to slow down flight. The example that could have come off is our flying ship was attacked by gargoyles. could I have dived over the side, turned and used the geyser function on a gargoyle to push myself back to the ship?
Bowmore 12-03-06, 02:45 PM	Also, while 1d4 damage is meager compared to most weapons, it's still lethal damage -- that means it CAN kill someone. Keep that in mind.;)
Argon_Asimov 12-05-06, 10:49 AM	well, the reason I think it's doable is that geyser requires a str check of 14 or be knocked down. That is why if redirected downage should give you additional leverage for jumping. also, could I twist and fire a geyser at another object to slow down flight. The example that could have come off is our flying ship was attacked by gargoyles. could I have dived over the side, turned and used the geyser function on a gargoyle to push myself back to the ship? Presuming that your DM has ruled that the improvised rocket pack can grant you flight, you could point it in any direction and it will move you in the opposite direction, regardless of whether you hit anything or not. Just not that unless you're pointing it partially downwards, you wil probobly lose altitude in the process.
RavenDrake 12-05-06, 11:18 AM	I would probably allow it, maybe not flight but certainly extended jumps. Of course all movement would be requisite on a Profession(Rocketeer) skill check which determines accuracy of the jumps. (DC = 10 plus 1 per foot beyond 30ft. Failure means you land in an adjacent square as scatter, failure by 5 or more points mean you land 1d4+1 x 5 ft away from your target square as scatter and land prone.)
shades of eternity 12-05-06, 12:08 PM	well, I think the glidings wings will allow me a good chunk of maneuverability while in the air.
ravenshrike 12-05-06, 01:33 PM	A gallon is 8 lbs., and a round is 6 seconds, so that's 30*8/6 = 40 lbs./sec. What isn't known exactly is the pressure of the geyser. We know it's not much: 1d4 points of damage in 6 seconds is really meager. I think you'd barely notice the thrust from a single Decanter. Maybe if you got a couple dozen you might be in business, given that you're a skinny kobold with wings. Remember, it's a Decanter of Endless Water, not a Decanter of Endless Pressure. Not really, you have to realize that while it doesn't do much damage that's because it's WATER. A dagger ONLY does 1d4. That's pretty damn hard for water. 2 of these would arguably give the kobold enough extra force to fly, although without proper control mechanisms the maneuverability would probably be clumsy. Think of it as twin fire hoses strapped to the kobolds back. Mind you, without increasing the pressure, he would need a running start and a jump check of sayyy, DC 20 to get going, so a DC 40 to fly from a dead stop. Probably double land speed, more if he increases the pressure, at best he could gain average maneuverability, and that would require both improved flight and properly built control components.
mvincent 12-05-06, 01:45 PM	Boots of levitation should allow a decanter of endless water to be particular effective in providing thrust.
Prak, the Mad 12-05-06, 02:00 PM	I freaking love this thread... I'm drawing it. gotta.
shades of eternity 12-05-06, 02:44 PM	let me know when you do :)
Alcalientre 12-05-06, 04:28 PM	1) 30 gallons/6 seconds means 18927 mL/s 2) A 730 cm^2 area (1 ft wide) means that the water is only going to be moving at 26 cm/s. 3) Since momentum is velocity (in m/s) x mass (in kg), this makes the momentum of the water 4.921. 4) This makes 4.921 N the upward force on the kobold. Giving him a mass approximately equal to a halfling of 16 kg, this makes his acceleration a puny .308 m/s^2 This would come nowhere close to countering the acceleration of gravity of 9.83 m/s^2. In order to do so, the stream would have to be shrunk down to about 3 cm across. Now, having said all that, I want everyone to forget it and do whatever the heck they want with their decanters of endless water. I for one think a kobold with a jetpack is pretty darned cool.
savant_warlord13 12-05-06, 04:41 PM	1) 30 gallons/6 seconds means 18927 mL/s 2) A 730 cm^2 area (1 ft wide) means that the water is only going to be moving at 26 cm/s. 3) Since momentum is velocity (in m/s) x mass (in kg), this makes the momentum of the water 4.921. 4) This makes 4.921 N the upward force on the kobold. Giving him a mass approximately equal to a halfling of 16 kg, this makes his acceleration a puny .308 m/s^2 This would come nowhere close to countering the acceleration of gravity of 9.83 m/s^2. In order to do so, the stream would have to be shrunk down to about 3 cm across. Now, having said all that, I want everyone to forget it and do whatever the heck they want with their decanters of endless water. I for one think a kobold with a jetpack is pretty darned cool. Translation: You would need several
RavenDrake 12-05-06, 05:30 PM	You could do something like this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=UN1G5h44cCs (though, quite frankly, with the number of decanters you'd need to make this worth, it's probably be cheaper to nab one decanter and boots of levitation.)
Chaos Theory 12-05-06, 05:59 PM	From now on all Kobolds in my realm shall come equipped with hang gliders, Hessian Helmets, diet coke, and mentos.
Vaelan 12-05-06, 10:52 PM	Shouldn't these calculations be taking drag into account? The kobold has wings that allow it to glide substantial distances, so I would imagine it would be fairly relevant.
Themightybiggun 12-05-06, 11:05 PM	http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q267/themightybiggun/detectwin.jpg This pic pretty much says it all for me...
stargate525 12-06-06, 01:29 PM	This is so beautiful it's not even funny. I am re-writing the plot of my current campaign just so I can include this.
Argon_Asimov 12-06-06, 07:57 PM	Translation: You would need several Real Translation: You would need to design a nozzle to increase the exit velocity. Alcalientre, thanks for doing the momentum analysis. I knew the exit velocity would be important, but for whatever reason, I couldn't pin down the exact relationship. I've followed your calculations, and I'll agree that a fairly narrow area is required for levitation. If f is the mass flow rate (40lb/sec), d is the density of water (about 62.428lb/ft^3) and m is the mass of the kobold (assumed equal to an average halfing, 35lbs), then the area needed to produce a high enough velocity for the change in momentum to exactly equal the force of gravity is: A = f^2/rAm = 3.275sq. in This gives a radius of just over one inch required for levitation. If you wanted to accelerate at 1G (like falling, but up) then you'd need two such packs. This would be convenient since you could simply use the rules for falling to determine your movement. Hope this helps. If I get the time, I'll calculate the exit pressure this generates (probobly very high).
Dheran 12-06-06, 08:25 PM	I admire the effort involved in working out the physics here, but I don't think it can work at all. The Decanter of Endless Water produces no more pressure than that which will do 1d4 damage in 6 seconds. Shoving a restricted nozzle into it isn't going to change that. If you can get more pressure you can do more damage, and the item description doesn't allow for that. Remember: it's a Decanter of Endless Water, not a Decanter of Endless Pressure.
stargate525 12-06-06, 08:37 PM	I admire the effort involved in working out the physics here, but I don't think it can work at all. The Decanter of Endless Water produces no more pressure than that which will do 1d4 damage in 6 seconds. Shoving a restricted nozzle into it isn't going to change that. If you can get more pressure you can do more damage, and the item description doesn't allow for that. Remember: it's a Decanter of Endless Water, not a Decanter of Endless Pressure. bogus. The description does not say that the decanter cannot be modified to produce extra pressure, it merely says; The force of the geyser deals 1d4 points of damage but can only affect one target per round. not 'the decanter can only produce enough water to deal 1d4 points of damage' or anything similar. If I fired off a fireball into an oil warehouse, would it do only the fireballs damage because the spell description doesn't allow for that?
Dheran 12-06-06, 09:31 PM	If I fired off a fireball into an oil warehouse, would it do only the fireballs damage because the spell description doesn't allow for that? Yes, the fireball would only do the fireball's damage. The oil would do its own damage. So what are you going to use to add more specific energy to the Decanter (akin to adding oil to a fireball)? Remember, magical energy isn't free. If you want to convert the Decanter of Endless Water into something more potent, you need to craft a more potent wondrous item. Just stuffing a nozzle into the Decanter will give more pressure, but at the expense of volume -- just as it will do with a garden hose.
ravenshrike 12-06-06, 09:32 PM	1) 30 gallons/6 seconds means 18927 mL/s 2) A 730 cm^2 area (1 ft wide) means that the water is only going to be moving at 26 cm/s. 3) Since momentum is velocity (in m/s) x mass (in kg), this makes the momentum of the water 4.921. 4) This makes 4.921 N the upward force on the kobold. Giving him a mass approximately equal to a halfling of 16 kg, this makes his acceleration a puny .308 m/s^2 This would come nowhere close to countering the acceleration of gravity of 9.83 m/s^2. In order to do so, the stream would have to be shrunk down to about 3 cm across. Now, having said all that, I want everyone to forget it and do whatever the heck they want with their decanters of endless water. I for one think a kobold with a jetpack is pretty darned cool. Yeah, now remember that you're doing the calculations to get a Kobold that can already glide to flying speed, not trying to make a pure jetpack, whatever the calculations there are for that I doubt you could do them. Then remember that a halfling probably weighs a bit more than a Kobold. A plane doesn't provide nearly enough thrust to push it off of the ground, yet it can fly just fine.
Sae Cael Oanar 12-06-06, 09:53 PM	think of a firehose when a fireman lets go of it. now pretend there is a kobold attached to the end. well, thats just funny.
stargate525 12-06-06, 11:09 PM	Remember, magical energy isn't free. If you want to convert the Decanter of Endless Water into something more potent, you need to craft a more potent wondrous item. Just stuffing a nozzle into the Decanter will give more pressure, but at the expense of volume -- just as it will do with a garden hose. Alright, bad example. I still don't understand where you're coming from. The decanter produces a set amount of water at each setting. At geyser it's 5 gallons per second. Nowhere in the description does it vary that number for purposes of blocking. If we corked it, it would STILL produce 5 gallons a second, most likely popping the cork off. I guess you're assuming that the decanter knows when its being blocked and will adjust the amount created to fit the pressure stated, but I think that if the decanter's cap is properly secured it'll simply cause more pressure. So in a way it is a decanter of endless* pressure. *endless being however much pressure you want to get depending on nozzle size. Pushing 5 gal/sec through something the size of a pinhole would be interesting, although you would need something akin to sovereign glue to keep it there.
Darth Sephiroth 12-06-06, 11:39 PM	Yes, the fireball would only do the fireball's damage. The oil would do its own damage. So what are you going to use to add more specific energy to the Decanter (akin to adding oil to a fireball)? Remember, magical energy isn't free. If you want to convert the Decanter of Endless Water into something more potent, you need to craft a more potent wondrous item. Just stuffing a nozzle into the Decanter will give more pressure, but at the expense of volume -- just as it will do with a garden hose. Actually, I think this is more of launching a fireball into a blackpowder stockpile, area goes... BOOOOOOOOMMMMM!!!!!! A designed nozzle of some sort would work rather well as would a few other modifications, and you may need two or so of them to do it, but it should work...
Chaos Theory 12-07-06, 09:31 AM	This situation would add a +8 comedy bonus on skill perform (DM)
Millennium 12-07-06, 10:08 AM	Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Decanter became useless if it was completely upended and the water spilled. Am I thinking of some other item here? If I'm right, then you couldn't use a jetpack in this way, because you couldn't take off: the jets would have to point down, which means spilling the water. You could, however, attach them to a cart and have them blow backwards and just slightly up (to prevent the water from spilling). This would yield something like a rocket cat.
ninja1 12-07-06, 01:52 PM	Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Decanter became useless if it was completely upended and the water spilled. Am I thinking of some other item here? Yeah, that's the Basin of Endless Water from the Stronghold Builder's Guide. I find a winged, gliding, jet-pack-propulsion kobold extremely funny. That being said, I think we are going about this rather backwards. Instead of finding a way to make a Decanter apply to this situation, I think the desired application should be taken into consideration when creating the wondrous item. That being said, the crafter starts with something like a Decanter in mind, but makes a custom item with whatever pressure requirements are needed for our little Kobold friend... and the DM adjudicates cost as appropriate for his/her campaign.
stargate525 12-07-06, 04:23 PM	That being said, I think we are going about this rather backwards. Instead of finding a way to make a Decanter apply to this situation, I think the desired application should be taken into consideration when creating the wondrous item. But that takes all the fun out of it... That being said, the crafter starts with something like a Decanter in mind, but makes a custom item with whatever pressure requirements are needed for our little Kobold friend... and the DM adjudicates cost as appropriate for his/her campaign. as long as the thing includes wings and looks like something DaVinci would have cooked up, I'm all for it. How much, in the rules, would this thing cost, assuming two decanters?
Lokiyn 12-07-06, 04:43 PM	We've used one of these as a cutting device before. you take an indestructable material (riverine) and use the given stats to make the decanter out of it (2*2000= +4000gp) Add in a cap with a Hole about the diameter of a human hair and you can pump the Cutting power of the water immensly, We also ruled in that the items was to bulky and unwieldy once modified to use as a weapon and that the stream dispersed over about 2 1/2 feet or so. The water pressure is typically between 20,000 and 55,000 pounds per square inch (PSI) for modern cutters, i lost the spread sheet so i'm not sure what a decanter can put out at extreme pinhole diameters.
mvincent 12-07-06, 05:10 PM	Remember: it's a Decanter of Endless Water, not a Decanter of Endless Pressure.Thank you for the quote. It is particularly succinct and accurate.
Lokiyn 12-07-06, 05:16 PM	Not quite, How much water does a decanter produce at the bottom of the sea? 30 gallons per round. How much watter does a decanter produce in a vaccum? 30 per round. Pressure isn't an issue, the bottle produces 30 gallons of water per round no matter the outside conditions. The only important thing is wether or not the bottle remains intact
mvincent 12-07-06, 05:34 PM	Not quitequite. Allowing for unlimited pressure (for this or other items that enlarge or create things) is the path of madness.
Lokiyn 12-07-06, 07:22 PM	Regardless of whether or not you think its madness the rules clearly state that a decanter produces 30 gallons of water every 6 seconds. There is a difference between the text says, and i think thats too crazy. We have the text, the text says 30 gallons per round, unlike expansions which specifically call out that not having a large enough space to expand into causes them to fail, decanters do not, the default then is that the decanter produces 30 gallons per round no matter the outside situations.
mvincent 12-07-06, 07:32 PM	Regardless of whether or not you think its madnessMadness I say! Madness! Maaadnessss!
keith187 12-07-06, 09:19 PM	Madness I say! Madness! Maaadnessss! Lol Maaadnessss!
shades of eternity 12-07-06, 09:36 PM	now say it in french :P
stargate525 12-07-06, 10:21 PM	now say it in french :P le. :D
Lokiyn 12-07-06, 10:22 PM	foooooliiiiieeeeeee!
stargate525 12-09-06, 12:04 AM	:bump: This thread is too good to die.
Darth Sephiroth 12-09-06, 03:42 AM	The question changes to how much each of the Decanters can carry into the air for use as a missile weapon of some kind
User5127 12-09-06, 04:07 AM	haven't read it all. but why not comminssioin a decanter of endless water rocket pack? basically modify the item to produce more force/pressure and have it mounted as a vest slotted item. then you can use it like fly, but with water. I'd make it comparable to a fly type item. but mabye a bit cheaper since its not true flight and the water comming out the back end of you would be pretty cool/funny. (I can see the town's fire department getting equipped with this. lol)
Darth Sephiroth 12-09-06, 03:14 PM	My question now is how do you land the crazy thing, you'd have a LOT of trouble turning the decanter off while zipping around.
shades of eternity 12-09-06, 03:53 PM	hense why my kobold has gliding wings ;)
stargate525 12-09-06, 06:22 PM	Easy, you make it so that in geyser mode, it has enough thrust to fly you around, but in stream, it has just slightly less than enough, so you slowly stall out.
shades of eternity 12-09-06, 07:05 PM	Been talking to my gm and tried to give it more pressure by encasing it into a metal container. He expressed that by restricting the position could cause damage to the item. I kinda want to avoid this, so any ideas would be most helpful
MagnaSecuris 12-09-06, 07:12 PM	The water has to push against something for you to really get anywhere. So you'll have a reall low ceiling for continuous flight. I wouldn't deny being able to blast-off over a hundred feet if you've got enough bottles, but no number of bottles will let you fly continuously at altitude.
Orayn, Elvish Blademaster 12-09-06, 07:27 PM	The mental image of a kobold with glider wings, a Mario Sunshine-style jetpack and flight goggles bring a smile to my heart. The image of that kobold taking off and raining death from above on his enemies simply makes me roffle.
stargate525 12-09-06, 08:13 PM	The water has to push against something for you to really get anywhere. So you'll have a reall low ceiling for continuous flight. I wouldn't deny being able to blast-off over a hundred feet if you've got enough bottles, but no number of bottles will let you fly continuously at altitude. the water Is pushing against something, the other end of the container. It's exerting pressure equally on all sides, and the only imbalance is opposite the opening. It's essentially a rocket, and rockets don't need to push off of anything except itself to work. ...come to think of it, in space, you could produce almost unlimited acceleration with these, and without needing to carry fuel your spaceship could be light indeed... I've got my intercontinental ballistic missile, now I just need to figur out how to steer it... :plotting:
CryoSilver 12-09-06, 08:22 PM	...come to think of it, in space, you could produce almost unlimited acceleration with these, and without needing to carry fuel your spaceship could be light indeed... I've got my intercontinental ballistic missile, now I just need to figur out how to steer it... :plotting: I had the idea once of teleporting large amounts of stone into space, then casting Wall of Stone repeatedly once there was enough mass, then using it as a Giant Meteor of Doom, rather than, you know, going into the dungeon and stuff. My DM disallowed it.
User5127 12-09-06, 10:29 PM	to prevent damage to the decanter put it INTO a box, and adamantine box. completly. with only a tiny pin hole at the bottom. then the decanter can't get damaged and you can attach the adamantine box to pretty much anything.
Vaelan 12-09-06, 10:34 PM	to prevent damage to the decanter put it INTO a box, and adamantine box. completly. with only a tiny pin hole at the bottom. then the decanter can't get damaged and you can attach the adamantine box to pretty much anything. The pressure inside of the box will continually increase, eventually crushing the decanter.
Lokiyn 12-09-06, 10:35 PM	Riverine is an indestructable material that for +2000gp per pound you can make any metal object out of. Since a Decanter is basically a simple bottle or jar and as such can be anything (even a http://www.boingboing.net/images/decanter.jpg) making a metal decanter isn't a huge stretch
Type2Demon 12-09-06, 11:13 PM	Please note that the SRD says: "The geyser effect causes considerable back pressure, requiring the holder to make a DC 12 Strength check to avoid being knocked down." This means that it is enough pressure to knock an adult human down. The only problem with the Kobold rocket pack would be flight stability and guidance. Otherwise he may just fly off in a gut wrenching spiral that ends with him nosing into the ground. Other options with the decanter include: As an outboard motor for a small boat. A strap-on booster for a Broom of Flying. And my personal favorite... a guided surface to air missile. Just add fletching for fins, thunderstones & balls from a necklace of missiles as a warhead, and an Unseen servant commanded to allways point the butt end of the decanter at the enemy {where the warhead is). The Decanter should easily be able to propel its own mass and a warhead. It might be capable of downing a wyvern, or severly wounding a dragon in flight.
Fallenangel359 12-10-06, 11:54 AM	may I ask what book riverine is in?
Chaos Theory 12-10-06, 01:24 PM	...come to think of it, in space, you could produce almost unlimited acceleration with these, and without needing to carry fuel your spaceship could be light indeed... I've got my intercontinental ballistic missile, now I just need to figur out how to steer it... :plotting: With a kobold obvoiusly
stargate525 12-10-06, 02:08 PM	Please note that the SRD says: "The geyser effect causes considerable back pressure, requiring the holder to make a DC 12 Strength check to avoid being knocked down." This means that it is enough pressure to knock an adult human down. The only problem with the Kobold rocket pack would be flight stability and guidance. Otherwise he may just fly off in a gut wrenching spiral that ends with him nosing into the ground. Other options with the decanter include: As an outboard motor for a small boat. A strap-on booster for a Broom of Flying. And my personal favorite... a guided surface to air missile. Just add fletching for fins, thunderstones & balls from a necklace of missiles as a warhead, and an Unseen servant commanded to allways point the butt end of the decanter at the enemy {where the warhead is). The Decanter should easily be able to propel its own mass and a warhead. It might be capable of downing a wyvern, or severly wounding a dragon in flight. heh, the way to prevent a massive spiral of doom is to make sure it's not just the power of the decanter keeping you up, that you need wings for lift as well. Is it bad that I giggle when I think of someone yelling 'Launch the Missiles' at an oncoming dragon, and they don't mean a type of spell? With a kobold obvoiusly Well since I want my pilot and my decanter to come back... scrap the missiles, now I'm thinking of extremely long range bombers with no need to refuel, EVER...
Darth Sephiroth 12-10-06, 05:58 PM	may I ask what book riverine is in? I'm pretty sure its in Stormwrack
Type2Demon 12-10-06, 07:12 PM	Is it bad that I giggle when I think of someone yelling 'Launch the Missiles' at an oncoming dragon, and they don't mean a type of spell? Hey, Why do you think that dragons always attack Dwarven enclaves and not Gnomish ones....:D Gnome G.S.D. (Gnomish Sky Defense) Commander: "Ok, Goldy what do we got?" Gnome Spotter (with Spyglass): "Adult White Dragon winging in over the pass, 700 yards downrange!" Gnome G.S.D. Commander: "Ready Fox one to three. Target Adult White Dragon!" Gnome Missileer: "Fox one to Three ready!" Gnome G.S.D. Commander: "Fire All!" Gnome Missileer: "FOX 1--- WHOOOOSH!, FOX 2 WHOOSH!, FOX 3 WHOOSH!" Gnome Spotter: "The misslies have locked....It's taking evasive action...." Three loud reports echo through the valley Gnome Spotter: "It's lost a wing! The Dragon is going down!" Gnome G.S.D. Commander:" Prep a recovery team to get that dragon hide pronto!" :devil:
stargate525 12-10-06, 07:17 PM	Hey, Why do you think that dragons always attack Dwarven enclaves and not Gnomish ones....:D Gnome G.S.D. (Gnomish Sky Defense) Commander: "Ok, Goldy what do we got?" Gnome Spotter (with Spyglass): "Adult White Dragon winging in over the pass, 700 yards downrange!" Gnome G.S.D. Commander: "Ready Fox one to three. Target Adult White Dragon!" Gnome Missileer: "Fox one to Three ready!" Gnome G.S.D. Commander: "Fire All!" Gnome Missileer: "FOX 1--- WHOOOOSH!, FOX 2 WHOOSH!, FOX 3 WHOOSH!" Gnome Spotter: "The misslies have locked....It's taking evasive action...." Three loud reports echo through the valley Gnome Spotter: "It's lost a wing! The Dragon is going down!" Gnome G.S.D. Commander:" Prep a recovery team to get that dragon hide pronto!" :devil: :rofl: The G.S.D. is totally stolen for my campaign setting! :rofl: Sigged, too.
Lokiyn 12-10-06, 08:01 PM	Kobold Jetpack The kobold Jetpack was intended to be a flying deathtrap for tinkergnomes however the Jetpack has been put to another use by some kobold tribes. Each round the Jetpack functions the "pilot" must make a dc 20 Profession (Rocketeering) check or suffer a catastrophic failure dealing 10d6 points of damage to the hapless pilot. however when in use the Jetpack allows the wearer to fly at a rate of 200 ft per round with a maneuverability of clumsy. Successfully flying a Jetpack for a minute or more counts as overcoming a cr 2 trap. The pilot may take neither 10 nor 20 on the check Cost (400gp Hanglider)+(13,000 Riverine Decanter)+(1000 Gp Riverine Cap) = 14,400 gp (20)-(2 Stat)-(2 Masterwork goggles)-(3 Skill Focus)-(3 Ranks) = Level 10 For no possible failures on a roll.
stargate525 12-10-06, 10:02 PM	Kobold Jetpack The kobold Jetpack was intended to be a flying deathtrap for tinkergnomes however the Jetpack has been put to another use by some kobold tribes. Each round the Jetpack functions the "pilot" must make a dc 20 Profession (Rocketeering) check or suffer a catastrophic failure dealing 10d6 points of damage to the hapless pilot. however when in use the Jetpack allows the wearer to fly at a rate of 200 ft per round with a maneuverability of clumsy. Successfully flying a Jetpack for a minute or more counts as overcoming a cr 2 trap. The pilot may take neither 10 nor 20 on the check Cost (400gp Hanglider)+(13,000 Riverine Decanter)+(1000 Gp Riverine Cap) = 14,400 gp (20)-(2 Stat)-(2 Masterwork goggles)-(3 Skill Focus)-(3 Ranks) = Level 10 For no possible failures on a roll. that's more a missile than a hang glider... not that I'm complaining.
Chaos Theory 12-11-06, 12:38 AM	I am still going to strap Diet coke to the back of my kobolds and equip them with mentos.
BinaryProphet 12-11-06, 01:01 AM	1) I can't believe this is technically allowable, but the fact that it is will cause me no end of amusement for months. 2) Why not just make a full on propeller-based airplane using the pressure from the decanter to rotate the propeller or some other equally complicated flying fortress scheme? 3) The thought of a kobold with flight goggles, a glider and a jetpack is perhaps the single greatest image to have ever entered my head. Thank you and may you rain death upon your enemies.
stargate525 12-11-06, 03:54 PM	1) I can't believe this is technically allowable, but the fact that it is will cause me no end of amusement for months. 2) Why not just make a full on propeller-based airplane using the pressure from the decanter to rotate the propeller or some other equally complicated flying fortress scheme? 3) The thought of a kobold with flight goggles, a glider and a jetpack is perhaps the single greatest image to have ever entered my head. Thank you and may you rain death upon your enemies. to 2)actually, that might work. I have an engine in real life that's driven by air power, so powering one with water probably wouldn't be too unreasonable. make sure there's a gate to the plane of water where the H2O dumps, so you have a completely clean source of power. to 3)hehe, Archibold the decanter-teer is already in my campaign setting, and the players have already commandeered his machine to rain down death upon their enemy. I am still going to strap Diet coke to the back of my kobolds and equip them with mentos. unfortunately, as was proven by mythbusters, that can't even get itself aloft, much less a cargo. Unless you made a decanter of endless Diet Coke. ;)
mvincent 12-11-06, 04:03 PM	2) Why not just make a full on propeller-based airplane using the pressure from the decanter to rotate the propeller or some other equally complicated flying fortress scheme?A medium (or large) sized animated object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm) could work as a self-propelled glider. Just shape it like an ornithopter or somesuch and treat it effectively like a mount. These could also be made in mass quantities more cheaply (and quicker) than decanters. Dispel magic could possibly cause it to crash and burn, but that seems like fun too.
forrestfire15 12-11-06, 05:15 PM	I had the idea once of teleporting large amounts of stone into space, then casting Wall of Stone repeatedly once there was enough mass, then using it as a Giant Meteor of Doom, rather than, you know, going into the dungeon and stuff. My DM disallowed it. didn't you mention this in the airship bombers thread?
stargate525 12-12-06, 11:01 PM	A medium (or large) sized animated object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm) could work as a self-propelled glider. Just shape it like an ornithopter or somesuch and treat it effectively like a mount. These could also be made in mass quantities more cheaply (and quicker) than decanters. Dispel magic could possibly cause it to crash and burn, but that seems like fun too. well how fast can you get that animated object to rotate?
Darth Sephiroth 12-12-06, 11:47 PM	A medium (or large) sized animated object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm) could work as a self-propelled glider. Just shape it like an ornithopter or somesuch and treat it effectively like a mount. These could also be made in mass quantities more cheaply (and quicker) than decanters. Dispel magic could possibly cause it to crash and burn, but that seems like fun too. That would be a sweet move though, the Decanter Packs would also be great for firefighting though
Chaos Theory 12-13-06, 10:10 AM	unfortunately, as was proven by mythbusters, that can't even get itself aloft, much less a cargo. Unless you made a decanter of endless Diet Coke. ;) As it is considered an artifact with a +7 humor bonus, reality is out voted this time.
Darth Sephiroth 12-13-06, 10:16 AM	As it is considered an artifact with a +7 humor bonus, reality is out voted this time. Only if they have a Cap of Infinite Mentos as well
Chaos Theory 12-14-06, 09:36 AM	Used together they provide a +12 bonus on all humor at the table checks. Any PC subjected to witnessing such an event must make a dc 15 will save or suffer the effects of Tashas hideous laughter
shades of eternity 12-14-06, 11:01 AM	and most of the opponents as well. Unfortunately, all that does is delay everything else for 1d4 rounds :p.
Killer_DM 12-14-06, 12:50 PM	This thread is awsome! keep it going! I can see these Decant-eer Kobold storm troopers now! You could use a long stick to stablize them in flight like a bottle rocket does
shades of eternity 12-14-06, 02:15 PM	here's a fun thought can we make a prestige class :) ;)
Type2Demon 12-14-06, 07:05 PM	here's a fun thought can we make a prestige class :) ;) Kobold Rocketeer Prestige Class?
stargate525 12-14-06, 07:11 PM	Kobold Rocketeer Prestige Class? first we need a confirmed kobold rocket.
Darth Sephiroth 12-15-06, 12:26 AM	Well, here's a try at a Rocketpack. Decanter Rocketpack A pair of slightly oversized cannisters with odd attachments to them are interlinked by a haphazardly welded togather latticework of metal with a leather harness attached to one side. A pair of oddly shaped wings vaguely like those of a hang glider are attached to either side on removable brackets and a pair of fins are on the back with a cable ending in a pair gloves with a button on each of them. The Decanter Rocketpack was cobbled togather by either a lunatic gnome or kobold (Both sides declare that they are the ones to make the things) as a way to take to the skies for various reasons. The rocketpack has at least 2 (some versions have more) slightly "modified" Decanters of Endless Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#decanterofEndlessWater ) linked togather and are otherwise non-magical devices. Construction begins by attaching a nozzle to the end of the decanter and coating it with a layer of metal to protect the decanters. [DC 20 Craft (Metalworking)] then they crate a framework around them to support link them togather and to attach the flight harness and wings [DC 15 Craft (Leatherworking) and DC 20 Craft (Metalworking)] before it can be used. A final modification locks the Decanters into a modified version of their standard use, making high pressure mode the only usable version as well as tying the activation to the controll buttons in the gloves [DC 25 Spellcraft and DC 20 Craft (Metalworking)]. The Decanter Rocketpacks are rare items that are rarely aquired save by special creation and are only usable by small characters. The Decanter Rocketpacks grant a 120 ft fly speed with Poor Maneuverability to the user and it take up the Cloak/Cape/Mantle item slot. The Decanter Rocketpack is a dangerous item though and requires a Profession (Rocketeer) check (DC 15) to activate and for any difficult maneuvers similar to those of Handling an Animal though requiring Profession (Rocketeer) checks. A failed check may cause a crash.
CryoSilver 12-15-06, 12:29 AM	didn't you mention this in the airship bombers thread? I did; somewhere around my phosphorous + rain idea.
stargate525 12-15-06, 06:30 PM	Well, here's a try at a Rocketpack. Decanter Rocketpack A pair of slightly oversized cannisters with odd attachments to them are interlinked by a haphazardly welded togather latticework of metal with a leather harness attached to one side. A pair of oddly shaped wings vaguely like those of a hang glider are attached to either side on removable brackets and a pair of fins are on the back with a cable ending in a pair gloves with a button on each of them. The Decanter Rocketpack was cobbled togather by either a lunatic gnome or kobold (Both sides declare that they are the ones to make the things) as a way to take to the skies for various reasons. The rocketpack has at least 2 (some versions have more) slightly "modified" Decanters of Endless Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#decanterofEndlessWater ) linked togather and are otherwise non-magical devices. Construction begins by attaching a nozzle to the end of the decanter and coating it with a layer of metal to protect the decanters. [DC 20 Craft (Metalworking)] then they crate a framework around them to support link them togather and to attach the flight harness and wings [DC 15 Craft (Leatherworking) and DC 20 Craft (Metalworking)] before it can be used. A final modification locks the Decanters into a modified version of their standard use, making high pressure mode the only usable version as well as tying the activation to the controll buttons in the gloves [DC 25 Spellcraft and DC 20 Craft (Metalworking)]. The Decanter Rocketpacks are rare items that are rarely aquired save by special creation and are only usable by small characters. The Decanter Rocketpacks grant a 120 ft fly speed with Poor Maneuverability to the user and it take up the Cloak/Cape/Mantle item slot. The Decanter Rocketpack is a dangerous item though and requires a Profession (Rocketeer) check (DC 15) to activate and for any difficult maneuvers similar to those of Handling an Animal though requiring Profession (Rocketeer) checks. A failed check may cause a crash. so can you get masterwork rocketpacks that either decrease the DC or increase its maneuverability?
Darth Sephiroth 12-15-06, 07:37 PM	so can you get masterwork rocketpacks that either decrease the DC or increase its maneuverability? Probably, I'm thinking perhaps -2 to the DC's and the Maneuverability by 1 grade.
mvincent 12-15-06, 08:39 PM	Anecdote: when I did the rocketpack thing with my gnome inventor (using a Decanter of Endless Water and boots of levitation), my DM had me make a DC 12 Strength check each round to control it, just like the Decanter's description implies. Fun ride.
stargate525 12-15-06, 10:15 PM	Probably, I'm thinking perhaps -2 to the DC's and the Maneuverability by 1 grade. now I'm thinking of how to get a +5 vorpal rocketpack....
Lokiyn 12-15-06, 10:35 PM	Tch, better yet. A Rocketpack of Legacy, or bend the rules and get an Item Familiar Rocketpack.
Chaser 12-16-06, 02:21 AM	Shouldn't these calculations be taking drag into account? The kobold has wings that allow it to glide substantial distances, so I would imagine it would be fairly relevant. Drag is very low at low speeds, so, maybe not. Boots of Lev + Decanter rules.
Vaelan 12-16-06, 04:06 AM	Drag is very low at low speeds, so, maybe not. The kobold has wings which allow it to drastically slow the speed at which it falls. According to the text of Dragon Wings, they slow his falling to 1.25 feet/second. Am I wrong in saying that this would be a matter of drag?
itwasntme 12-16-06, 04:27 AM	Actually, I think this is more of launching a fireball into a blackpowder stockpile, area goes... BOOOOOOOOMMMMM!!!!!! A designed nozzle of some sort would work rather well as would a few other modifications, and you may need two or so of them to do it, but it should work... First Off Magicol Fire (Like FireBall) CANT Set anything on fire so fireing at a Blackpowder Stockpile would make the Blackpowder Fly eveywhere UN Touched by Flame! i dount remeber WHAT PG this was on or in what book (But i have a good idea) If You wish ill look it up
itwasntme 12-16-06, 04:52 AM	I Can picture Gnome Flying Jets Flireing Missles Of These Things at you ... Most Problem is you wouldnt get many gnomes back even on a Good run ... or many of them wouldnt Launch into the air
Ultimatecalibur 12-16-06, 05:41 AM	Taken from the srd under fireball: The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.
Type2Demon 12-16-06, 10:18 AM	Here is some info from grabbed from Wikipedia that may be relavent to the subject: The German Jetpack of World War II During World War II, Germany made late-war experiments of strapping two wearable shortened Schmidt pulse jet tubes of low thrust to the body of a pilot. The working principle was the same as the Schmidt-Argus pulse jet that powered the Fieseler Fi 103 flying bomb whereas the size was much smaller. The device was called "Himmelstürmer" (Skystormer) and operated as follows: when the flier ignited both engines simultaneously the tubes began to pulse modulate. The angled rear tube strapped to the flier's back provided both lift and forward thrust while the chest mounted deflector tube of lower thrust maintained a constant upward thrust. This lifted the flier up and forward. By opening the throttle to the rear tube, calculated "jumps" could be made of up to 60 meter (180 ft) at low altitude (under 50 ft, 15 m). The tubes consumed very little fuel but not much could be carried either. The intended use for this device was for German pioneers to cross minefields, barbed wire obstacles, and bridgeless waters. The device was never intended for troop use, despite a crude depiction of it in that role in the comic book and film The Rocketeer (which was a prop bearing no resemblance to the real device). At the end of the war this device was handed over to Bell which tested it on a tether out of fear of harm as no test flier was willing to risk his life with the German machine. What became of the device is not known but Bell later came up with its famous "Rocketbelt" design that Wendel Moore claimed was his own. Although of different configuration and operation, it is suspected that Moore had knowledge of the German machine - hardly an "original" idea. The fictional device used by The Rocketeer was a rocket pack that was technically unique (at least in the film adaptation) because it was designed to remain cool. The Himmelsturmer, by comparison, never operated long enough to get extremely hot and both tubes were angled away from the body of the flier. In operation the thrust difference between pulse tubes acted as a push/pull/lift system. Flight time for jumps was in seconds with no lengthy descent time as altitude was minimal. As soon as the throttle was disengaged the device was shut off, a very simple operation and no report of any casualties.
Frodo34x 12-16-06, 12:00 PM	While you're at it, why not build a jet plane, complete with air to air and air to surface missles made out of Decaters? It would make an awesome airborn battle against a dragon.
stargate525 12-16-06, 01:33 PM	While you're at it, why not build a jet plane, complete with air to air and air to surface missles made out of Decaters? It would make an awesome airborn battle against a dragon. expensive missiles; the power source is 7.5k a piece...
shades of eternity 12-16-06, 02:17 PM	yeah way better to use create water (or a higher level) as a basis of a one shot blast for projection.
Darth Sephiroth 12-16-06, 04:01 PM	Water Bottle Jetpack (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN1G5h44cCs) Just thought that it applied
savant_warlord13 12-16-06, 07:58 PM	You could do something like this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=UN1G5h44cCs (though, quite frankly, with the number of decanters you'd need to make this worth, it's probably be cheaper to nab one decanter and boots of levitation.) That video is faked. With the amount of water you've got in there, you'd get about 2 seconds of flight.
aramilcaelvan 12-16-06, 08:03 PM	Lets not forget that you would have a great deal of water everywhere, real fast. Using this anywhere within civilization is going to get everyone who isn't a PC/trying to kill you mad, very quickly.
Artector 12-16-06, 08:22 PM	Lets not forget that you would have a great deal of water everywhere, real fast. Using this anywhere within civilization is going to get everyone who isn't a PC/trying to kill you mad, very quickly. Ehh, I'd think it'd be more like a light rain at best. The closer you are to the ground the more annoying it is, but it should disperse considering its going through a small nozzle.
Alcalientre 12-16-06, 08:28 PM	The kobold has wings which allow it to drastically slow the speed at which it falls. According to the text of Dragon Wings, they slow his falling to 1.25 feet/second. Am I wrong in saying that this would be a matter of drag? I have absolutely no idea what book Dragon Wings are in, so I can't read the description or see any pictures of them, but I'm assuming that the slowed fall is a result of gliding around in circles or some such thing. If it weren't, the item would be more like a parachute than a set of wings. This means that if you were going up into the air, you could probably move the wings to produce fairly insignificant drag (unless you get up to pretty high speeds). Of course, if you're wearing wings in the first place, you probably aren't using the decanter as a jetpack, but as propulsion to produce lift with the wings. And now I'll stop before I spend four hours failing to figure out how to calculate that.
aramilcaelvan 12-16-06, 08:44 PM	Ehh, I'd think it'd be more like a light rain at best. The closer you are to the ground the more annoying it is, but it should disperse considering its going through a small nozzle. I'm not looking to be argumentative, but small nozzle or not, 30 gallons/round, which is 5 gallons/second is going to add up pretty quickly. One minute, and that is 300 gallons, quite enough to get people's feet wet.
Artector 12-16-06, 08:53 PM	I'm not looking to be argumentative, but small nozzle or not, 30 gallons/round, which is 5 gallons/second is going to add up pretty quickly. One minute, and that is 300 gallons, quite enough to get people's feet wet. No worries. How far has the kobold gone in one minute though? Dispersion won't make as bad as it could be. Though takeoff would annoy people a lot. Now I'm seeing a prankster rotating the two decanters. And now I'm seeing a water powered helicopter.
stargate525 12-16-06, 10:03 PM	No worries. How far has the kobold gone in one minute though? Dispersion won't make as bad as it could be. Though takeoff would annoy people a lot. Now I'm seeing a prankster rotating the two decanters. And now I'm seeing a water powered helicopter. Also easily solved by placing a piece of metal with a permanent heat metal spell on it, which will turn it into harmless steam. water powered helicopter... definitely not an efficient use, unless you want a flying cropwaterer.
Tordek 12-16-06, 11:09 PM	I agree. Use magic to superheat the nozzle, and it becomes a steam jet. Heck, ad some coil tubing inside the pack, and you could boost your pressure quite a bit.
stargate525 12-16-06, 11:34 PM	I agree. Use magic to superheat the nozzle, and it becomes a steam jet. Heck, ad some coil tubing inside the pack, and you could boost your pressure quite a bit. hehe. Strap a couple dozen of these onto a ship at a slight downward angle, and you have a airship that leaves a tail of clouds!
Chaos Theory 12-17-06, 12:09 AM	expensive missiles; the power source is 7.5k a piece... I take it that means you are unfamiliar with the cost of just about any guided missile. They typically range from around 100-200K( Sidewinder) to 500k(Phoenix)
Vaelan 12-17-06, 12:34 AM	I have absolutely no idea what book Dragon Wings are in, so I can't read the description or see any pictures of them, but I'm assuming that the slowed fall is a result of gliding around in circles or some such thing. It is a feat from Races of the Dragon. You can use the wings granted by the feat to glide 30 feet per round with no limitation on direction and you descend 5 feet for every 20 you glide. If it weren't, the item would be more like a parachute than a set of wings. This means that if you were going up into the air, you could probably move the wings to produce fairly insignificant drag (unless you get up to pretty high speeds). I was thinking that the wings would make it possible for a small number of regular Decanters (two, by the calculations I've seen) to keep one aloft indefinitely. All you need the Decanters to do is balance out the speed at which you fall, and 1.25 ft/s is a lot easier to balance than 9.8 m/s. Of course, doing this requires you to mix real physics with D&D physics, which really doesn't work.
stargate525 12-17-06, 10:30 AM	I take it that means you are unfamiliar with the cost of just about any guided missile. They typically range from around 100-200K( Sidewinder) to 500k(Phoenix) look at it in perspective. The government who buys sidewinders has a budget in the trillions of dollars. monarchies in d&d might be lucky to get 100 thousand a year.
Chaos Theory 12-17-06, 11:35 AM	I'll give you that one. Mind you it depends on how heavily they tax 20th level characters ;)
stargate525 12-17-06, 12:19 PM	I'll give you that one. Mind you it depends on how heavily they tax 20th level characters ;) and the answer to that question is not at all, or once.
shades of eternity 12-17-06, 01:55 PM	taxing 20th level pc's is pretty much being ready to cart off their belongings at a quick pace after they kick the bucket :p
forrestfire15 02-20-07, 07:44 PM	:bump:
stargate525 02-20-07, 07:50 PM	hurray for thread necromancy! taxing 20th level pc's is pretty much being ready to cart off their belongings at a quick pace after they kick the bucket :p yeah, in the 12 or so seconds before the PC's clone can teleport over there and get it all back.
Jandulh 02-22-07, 03:35 PM	Wow, weeks ago when scavenging random magic items for a campain we've been in I had seen the decatur... but man, I thought my ideas were neat, and lo and behold, my kobold hexblade might make use of those dragon wings he has!
Kursk 02-22-07, 04:45 PM	think of a firehose when a fireman lets go of it. now pretend there is a kobold attached to the end. well, thats just funny. That's exactly what would happen too!
Yadot 02-22-07, 06:44 PM	I was thinking that the wings would make it possible for a small number of regular Decanters (two, by the calculations I've seen) to keep one aloft indefinitely. All you need the Decanters to do is balance out the speed at which you fall, and 1.25 ft/s is a lot easier to balance than 9.8 m/s. Of course, doing this requires you to mix real physics with D&D physics, which really doesn't work. If the Kobold uses a double move then he falls 15ft in 5 s. that translates into 0.457m/s. If we assume the Kobold's mass is 35kg that means he needs 16.01N to stay airborn. 1) 30 gallons/6 seconds means 18927 mL/s 2) A 730 cm^2 area (1 ft wide) means that the water is only going to be moving at 26 cm/s. 3) Since momentum is velocity (in m/s) x mass (in kg), this makes the momentum of the water 4.921. 4) This makes 4.921 N the upward force on the kobold. Giving him a mass approximately equal to a halfling of 16 kg, this makes his acceleration a puny .308 m/s^2 If a regular Decanter provides 4.921N of upward force one would need to decrease the opening by a factor of 4 to accelerate upwards at .023m/s. Add two more modified Decanters to reach speeds of 1.148m/s. Viola, although a better strategy might be to Reduce Person and carpet bomb the enemy with shrunken Alchemist's Fire.
skydin 02-22-07, 09:06 PM	the science of this stuff is awesome,i was absorbed in the thread as soon as the mathmatics started.however,it doesnt have to be perfect because absolute rules in any game like dungeons and dragons can lead very quickly to boredom.lets just say that if you slap a proper nozzle on a Decanter,and have the skills,you can get enough pressure to fly reasonably with wings capable of gliding,assuming you make the nozzle properly of course so it provides enough pressure and doesnt fly off.. as for the magic bit,magic by itself is stupid,thats why its either on a rampage,dormant,or working through an intelligent creature most of the time(exluding the intervention of gods of magic and the like of course).the decanter wont recognize on its own the change of pressure unless its about to explode from it.