Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DnDEstArsVitae 02-09-07, 11:42 PM	Here’s the scenario. You have technology. You have airships, you have guns, and you all other manner of renaissance, think 15th century, technology, what would you do? Here’s, more clearly, the scenario. You are the King of a nation, surrounded by at least two, if not more, hostile nations. They do not have technology to the same extent you do, they have standard DnD tech. But, they do have magic, and you do not. You have lead on your city walls, so you have magic protection, and you can firebomb their fields if need be. You have few rifles, but your soldiers have the ‘Far Shot’ feat, so they can shoot up to 225 feet, while most bowmen can only shoot up to 100ft. But, again, they have magic, and you do not. Your king is: Fighter3/Forsaker10. How do you win, and take them all, militarily and economically. You live on a mountain, surrounded by fields. They are in, as yet, loosely defined territory. KILL THE MAGIC USERS!!!:D
Mystyc 02-10-07, 02:27 AM	It's going to matter a lot what levels of magic they have. Magic can do things that even modern technology simply cannot -- instantaneous transport and scrying on opposing troops in the field without risk come to mind before the battle is even joined. Furthermore, while your resources will be drained over the course of a long campaign, your enemies will have theirs replenished every morning. The only way to reduce their available resources is by assassinating the wizards. Ok, so now you need, essentially, snipers. If your marksmen's maximum range is really 225 feet, you have a problem. If their range increment is 225 feet, that's workable. A projectile weapon like a gun has a maximum range of ten times its range increment, so these guys still have a shot from almost a half-mile away (albeit at a -18 penalty), or as close as they can get without compromising themselves. In a perfect world, you could corrupt and hire a decent wizard or twenty from a neighboring country to assist your strike forces. Potions of true strike or invisibility would do wonders. By the same token, though, as soon as one of your men is killed in the field, the other guys will have a gun, and backed up by magic, they'll soon have many, many guns. Technology doesn't stay in one place very easily. But let's suppose you manage to snipe enough wizards that you can actually march in and take the country. Magic is essentially free, so insurgents will never lack for ammunition to throw at you. You would basically find yourself in Iraq, except that the leaders of the resistance can kill you with a thought, and you'll never know which of the twenty guys on the street it was.
DnDEstArsVitae 02-10-07, 02:40 AM	Okay. Well, let me clarify something then. We're talking about the King of one nation being level thirteen. Most of the troops are not higher than level three. On that note: They will have very few wizards in comparison to the amount of other troops they have. Their populous are not wizards all, and yes, my range increment is 225, not the total range. Mostly, I’m worried about how to get around the issue of those low level mages (which can still cast colour spray to knock out many of my soldiers) and enchanted siege weaponry.
Novacat 02-10-07, 02:56 AM	There's no way tech would win against magic. Frankly, 15th century technology was essentially medieval technology. Magic just so strongly overpowers that. Spells like Dominate and Geas and any number of spells suddenly become so much more useful when facing an enemy that cannot dispel it, cannot duplicate it, and most importantly one that has technology you don't. Just how long do you think it would take for a gunsmith to get dominated and forced to create masterworked muskets for the wizards to enchant? Plus, lead walls are "whatever". A single high level druid can decimate a city without ever showing his face. One wizard can gate a demon into the city regardless the composition of its wall. Hell, just for kicks, the wizard would probably either: a) leave the wall standing while the entire city inside is destroyed, or b) blow up the wall AFTER destroying the city. Probably the single most important magic in this situation is clerical magic. Soldiers that can cast on the front lines in full armor and keep other soldiers alive. If you get a high level cleric in any skirmish, a Mass Heal will definitely shatter the enemy troops' morale.
Mr. Master 02-10-07, 08:24 AM	Front attack doesn't work with such opponents (DeD tech with magic).Instead,you must rely on subtle misinformation and sneak attacks. "Wizards are the main reason of your nation problems" "Magic is the instrument with which a small number of people rule on a vast amount of common folks" "The experiments of XYZ the Wizard have caused the Black Death" and so on... Assassins are good if you want to kill a wizard.Moreover,wizards too need to sleep,not to mention to eat (only clerics can create food).A good poison is worth its price. Moreover,you have fighters,barbarians,rangers,rogues,palad ins...Even when not magic empowered,these classes can seriously challenge a wizard/sorceror/damned magic user.And,as Conan once said,"the only good magic always available is 1feet of steel in your hand".Spells,in the end,will finish,but there always be a soldier with a prepared action. Also,a good alliance with dragons and other powerful beings would be good.Moreover,once the fight is over,it's much easier to kill a single dragon than a group of hostile spell casters. In the end,however,the only instrument that works is a prayer to the allmighty god The Dungeon Master: "Oh supreme being,please,I beg you to change the rules of your universe (not that they're not perfect...)and make the spellcasters have to roll a Concentration check at DC 30+spell's level just to cast a spell.Also,make them suffer some damage when casting a spell".
m o n k 02-10-07, 11:46 AM	You have lead on your city walls, so you have magic protection Sorry to be off topic, but does lead really provide some form of protection from magic? Which source can I find this in? Thanks!
mato_hibiki 02-10-07, 12:01 PM	Sorry, but you're boned. The only way tech can hold up against magic, is if you're packing 23rd century tech or so. See RIFTS for proof. Honestly, I wouldn't really even bother to try, I'd just pack up as much gear as I could carry, move out, and try to find some decent work. According to the stories, being the last person from a decimated kingdom nets you amazing skill and fame automatically. Al Lan Mandragoran, anyone?
FrostWolf 02-10-07, 01:23 PM	Hmm... I'm in a story much like that. Only no guns. Materials are key here. No +2 armors of protection, so you'll need special metals to help level the field. Second, Alchemy. I know, casters only, but A kingdom like this would find some way around this. Third, Trained monsters, or huge sized animals. or even hure giants. Elephant riders, gnomes riding displacer beasts and blink dogs, shifting in behind the front likes and dropping bombs, then getting out. rust monsters giving your light footmen/calvery the melee advantage. (See arms and equipment guide for strange mounts). Fourth. Constructs of some sort. I know They need magic, But I think there is one or two that don't, maybe the automations? Fifth. Steam power. Ships would give you sea advantage, and if you could make a steam tank that wouldn't cook it's crew, so much the better. Also get some Gnome scopes on them guns (Arms and equipment guide) to lessen the range penelties.
Iver Gearsham 02-10-07, 02:24 PM	I second third and whatever the your boned Think about mages taking your gun powder Making colossal sized hand grenades/oil barral sized bombes Shrink Item them down a moment before they blow. Then they throw these Fireball like weapons into combat keeping their real spells in reserve for for emergencys or more utillity spells. Example 5th lvl mage has average two third level spells or two Fireballs too throw on the the battle give him 4 days of prep and he walks on to the battlefield with 8 bombs AND two Fireballs.
The_sleeper1 02-10-07, 09:22 PM	Here’s the scenario. You have technology. You have airships, you have guns, and you all other manner of renaissance, think 15th century, technology, what would you do? Here’s, more clearly, the scenario. You are the King of a nation, surrounded by at least two, if not more, hostile nations. They do not have technology to the same extent you do, they have standard DnD tech. But, they do have magic, and you do not. You have lead on your city walls, so you have magic protection, and you can firebomb their fields if need be. You have few rifles, but your soldiers have the ‘Far Shot’ feat, so they can shoot up to 225 feet, while most bowmen can only shoot up to 100ft. But, again, they have magic, and you do not. Your king is: Fighter3/Forsaker10. How do you win, and take them all, militarily and economically. You live on a mountain, surrounded by fields. They are in, as yet, loosely defined territory. KILL THE MAGIC USERS!!!:D Air ship flies in invisable wizard flings a fireball, air ship goes down in flames. Invis wizard enters your capital flying and with a supply of scrolls and magic wands, 30 min later your whole city is burning and laied to ruins you still have not seen him and he flies away haveing soundly beat you for the cost of a few tens of thousand gp in wand charges / scrolls if that.
DnDEstArsVitae 02-10-07, 09:33 PM	Okay, thank you all for your wonderful help in telling me how much it would cost a high, or even medium, level wizard to burn my cities to the ground... Now, notice, that hasn't helped me. I give real thanks to Frost Wolf and Mr.Master, your suggestions have been taken to heart. For Monk: yes, lead does provide magical protection. I think that information can be found in The Stronghold Builder's Guide. Mores the point, why do you both even telling me that 'I'm bone' and then leaving? That doesn't help me. I won't be getting magic anytime soon, and I won't be able to avoid fighting with them, so how does that help? Note On War: I will say this AGAIN. The average wizard is of a relatively low level. As in, there will only be, at the most, an army of 500 third level wizards. Not enough to cause world wide destruction. They cannot fling fireballs at my ship. They cannot cast invisibility enough to stop my troops from killing them after one attack. Unless none of you are aware, Medieval War was nothing like present day war. They did not burn cities to the ground so their resources could not be used. They took the walls, then killed anyone in the city that threatened them. There were some instances, and these are relatively rare, where a city would be exterminated. This only happend when the city had revolted agianst the Kingdom's rule or when, like in Jerusalem, the fighters were obsessed with religious ferver. Also, you say a mage can burn down my cities without anyone knowing it's happening for a couple thousand gold. Try this, many, lets say three hundred, vats of oil in barrels... then, put firebombs on to the said barells.... then, drop barrels from airship, which are 800ft in the air so no fireballs, (that no one in the city could cast anyway, can hit them), with the firebombs over the barrels of oil. Instant, and rather cheap, city decimating tool. So, tech isn't without it's power either. Thank You, again, to Frost Wolf and Mr.Master If anyone else would like to give me a couple of ideas, then I'd appreciate it. Telling me how much magic rocks won't be doing it. DnD Est Ars Vitae
Jo_Pistachio 02-11-07, 12:09 AM	Don't bother airbombing the cities. There are easy defenses for casters around their favourite element, fire. My vote is to take and subjugate the lesser of the two countries as quickly as possible, while maintaning a decent guard on the walls. Problem with this is, again, magic is a great way to bust into a castle, lay siege, and keep the moral of the troops higher than your own. We'll get to that later. Now, for defense, lead lined walls will help block divinations to some parts, sure. That won't really stop them from taking the walls, however, since they can scry the tops of the walls and so forth. As such, I think it would be decent to deploy hundreds of suits of lead armour, as well as lead armoured troops onto the walls. Only very thin lead mind you, as it is too heavy for real combat. This will give the impression to scryers that you have walls manned with hundreds of individuals in full plate, while in reality, you are mustering an attack force. For real, honest to god defense when they do attack, the airships are your best defense. Dropping the bombs on his advancing and unprotected armies is more productive than dropping them on his well protected cities. These airships should also have some of your best snipers who should be able to pick off enemy incoming wizards. Also, make the thing resistant to fires. It really is that important when dealing with casters. Prioritize targets. Aim for warmachines as he is setting up, hit the elite columns as they advance, and aim for archers as they close into firing range. Enemy mage contingents should be dealt with as the highest order of elites. In all likelyhood, they will be squadron leaders, so don't worry about them too much. On the attack, tunneling and lead sheating works wonders. Sap the outer walls of his cities, then move the army in. If you can get engineers working on breaching the outer walls without the enemy knowing what you are up to, you are golden. Make sure you do whatever you can to counter intel, including charmed messangers. Use cryptexes, locks and keys all together. Riddles and codes also may help, though the wizards may be smart enough to figure these out, so change them up every so often. Now, organize your army so that it is arrayed against the castle as is typical in siege, but don't advance until you know that first wall is coming down. Use signalers to time it perfectly. You hit take out the wall just as you close in with the wall, giving him little time to fill the gap. Take places of elevation first, and set up sniper groups who will take you incoming reinforcements. Grenadier divisions should be used to clear out strong rooms and fortified rooms. Use a mix of alchemists fire and tar, since it will smoke people out of the rooms horribly. Melee is simply to give casters something right there to think about. The real threats are you grenadiers and snipers. Still, give the impression that the melee is going in for the take. Losses by this point should be really bad on both sides, especially since you have no healing, and he should have pelted every inch of your advance with magic missiles. This is when you may want to retreat your melee division and have a reserve take there place. Hopefully cavalry. Also, I hope you were taking advantage of range, choke points and cover during this time. By now, the city should have the outer limits taken. Fortify the outer wall, reinforce your army and barracade him in the inner sanctums. Once the full reserve army arrives, you should have the means to batter in the doors and take the main stronghold. Once the first city is taken, loot every magic resource there is, and use it to bolster you forces. Research methods of melding magic with science. For the second nation, you will have more trouble. I said to go for the weak one first, and the stronger second. By now, you probably halved your army (at worst though, really.) You do, however, now have both a population advantage as well as an economic advantage. While you do need to hunt down whatever resistance there is, the best is to win over the people of the conquered nation. For this you elect a charismatic, diplomatic individual who will rule over the conquered nation as one piece of your dominion. Allow the lives of the citizens to continue much as it did before. In fact, encourage normalcy. Policing will still be necessary, but keep them humane. Once you win over enough of them, which should take several years, you should have the manpower, the technology, and the magic you need to utterly crush the remaining nation. Do so. Now, common spells for the level three casters will be cures, divine feats, like divine vigor, aid , prayer, magic missile, true strike, scorching ray and possibly some cantrips that can add up in damage. There is no way to counter the magic missile barage. You will have to deal with that. True striked artillery is going to make your life hell. Take it out first, with airbombs. Repeated airbombs with a lingering, smoky fire. Or snipe the wizards crewing the machines. Anything you can do. For the enemy archery and scorching rays, use a moving shield wall strategy. Each rifleman takes with hims a "squire" who is actually a melee combatant. Each melee combatant moves forward in the advance with a tower shield, creating cover for both himself and the row of gunners behind. This will be the slow advancing middle wave of troops, who will follow behind the faster grunts who will rush in and attempt to take the walls after the breach. They will be responsible for providing a point of retreat for near dead units, a barrier from which to advance and the core of your army. Now, the enemy will have some higher bonuses to certain things than you. That's just a fact. You will have no healing, while he has rather a lot. This means that concentrated fire is important, and killing someone that is unconcious becomes necessary. Possible, equip the first wave with manacles that they can capture unconcious enemies with. Once the main line hits, they won't be doing much anyway. Prisoners should be treated fairly and kindly, as they may well be future soldiers in you army. The last group is the cavalry. They should have some trouble with getting over the rubble, so they come in last, when the breach is cleared. Once in, which may take a while, they should be able to make it into the centre of the city with overwhelming numbers, sniper cover, and a lot of smoke bombs.
FrostWolf 02-11-07, 09:53 AM	Jo_Pistachio...... You sir, rock!
Vrellum 02-11-07, 11:24 AM	You might want to look for feats out in d20 modern. One important thing to remember about d20 modern is bows (longbow, shortbow, etc.) can only fire 1 shot per round under this rule set. That helps to balance them out against the absurdely weakened modern firearms. I'm not very familiar with the setting, but there might be something in there that would work for you. Also, there is a feat in PHBII called crossbow sniper I would ask for it to work with firearms as well. I believe you said you had cannon. Don't forget there are a lot of different ways to load cannon. Canister shot and double ball with chain would decimate infantry at close to medium range. If you are set in a defensive position, make sure you have some available. Also, cannon balls are more of a line attack than an attack at a single target (man-sized anyway). Rules for cannon ball bouncing through enemy formations might be a little difficult to work out though. You might try looking at warhammer rules for this. If you are attacking, I would pick a section of his wall that looks weakest and firebomb it with the air ships while knocking it down from a safe distance with cannon. Once you breach the wall move your troops in. Try to break up his formations by dropping pitch/alchemist fire/something dangerous or hot and hit him while he is confused. Your firebombs should be atleast as effective (and more plentiful) than his fireballs. Actually if you have cannon and he does not, you could (especially since DnD stone is pretty fragile) knockdown his wall and knockout supporting towers on one side of a city and march in pretty good shape. I would try to convince the dm to give formation benefits. For example, a unit of well ordered troops attacking a unit in loose formation or in disarray would get a bonus, maybe +1 to hit +1 AC. Maybe better if the enemy is really confused or spread widely.
Jo_Pistachio 02-11-07, 11:47 AM	Fire bombs may be ineffective against magically reinforced stone, due to the fact that fires normally do about d6 damage per round, and the hardness of the wall should be at least 8. ;) Strafing runs to take out troops on the walls would be OK, but don't you think that using the wall once taken for the snipers to use would be more effective? I think taking the walls without lighting them up is a little better in the long run. The double shot and chain on the cannon is only a little more effective and a lot more time consuming than simply loading the cannon barrely with scrap metal and firing like a shotgun. Also, if you are in range to do this, you are too close and could lose a very valuable resource. Have it as an option, but don't try to let it happen. I also don't support taking out more than a fraction of the wall. If you can take a city intact, it's better than taking the city through pure force. I think using gunpowder and using it to sap the wall would be quicker. Recon using the airships is something I forgot. Get them over and around the cities carting cartographers about to make sure you know the general layout. Have objective points for every squad, and a timeline based off of positions on the map.
Vrellum 02-11-07, 01:00 PM	Fire bombs may be ineffective against magically reinforced stone, due to the fact that fires normally do about d6 damage per round, and the hardness of the wall should be at least 8. ;) Strafing runs to take out troops on the walls would be OK, but don't you think that using the wall once taken for the snipers to use would be more effective? I think taking the walls without lighting them up is a little better in the long run. The double shot and chain on the cannon is only a little more effective and a lot more time consuming than simply loading the cannon barrely with scrap metal and firing like a shotgun. Also, if you are in range to do this, you are too close and could lose a very valuable resource. Have it as an option, but don't try to let it happen. I also don't support taking out more than a fraction of the wall. If you can take a city intact, it's better than taking the city through pure force. I think using gunpowder and using it to sap the wall would be quicker. Recon using the airships is something I forgot. Get them over and around the cities carting cartographers about to make sure you know the general layout. Have objective points for every squad, and a timeline based off of positions on the map. Maybe my post wasn't clear. The bombing runs should be used to enemy troops away from defensive positions and to make an opening for his advancing troops. I would recommend knocking enough wall that he can get his troops through quickly and also using cannon to degrade any enemy troops in reinforced areas, such as towers. I probably over stated the damage he should do to the city walls, but I would use cannon to degrade his defenses so that he could enter with out taking huge losses. I don't see any need to storm the walls until the defenses have been worn down considerably. The canister shot suggestion was specifically for when he is fighting defensively (and a few rounds should be availble incase of surprises). In such a situation retreat may not be feasable those rounds could be very useful. As you mentioned, scrap metal or even gravel could be used as well. Sapping the wall would be ok, but stone isn't very strong in DnD and I think he could knock it down fast enough and I think it would be safer. I'm not sure how close he would need to get with his cannon, but I think he should be able to get out of bow range, but probably not out of fireball range... And I suspect there are at least a few mages capable of throwing fireballs. So sapping might be a good option. I think a lot depends on how well (if at all) he can out range his opponent. One thing about charm person. A charmed spy won't automatically tell his new "friend" all of his secrets. IMO He would have to be convinced by opposed charisma rolls. He doesn't forget who his friends are, he just has a new one.
Vagrond 02-11-07, 01:04 PM	Here’s the scenario. You have technology. You have airships, you have guns, and you all other manner of renaissance, think 15th century, technology, what would you do? Renaissance airships? Must say I like the idea, but it is historically anachrynous.
nightside_samurai 02-11-07, 01:27 PM	I would also think that you would want to set up some sort of traps around your city itself, and don't send out all your troops. I have a horrible feeling about Wizards casting Expeditious Retreat and Invisibility and invading your city with scrolls of spider climb and wands of magic missile.
Pandaemoni 02-11-07, 10:44 PM	My personal pet peeve aside (listed at the end because I can't help myself), renaissance technology without magic would have a tough time dealing with magic rich nations, imo. While you focus your technology on "attrition warfare," magic makes "maneuver warfare" a very attractive option. At the most basic, scry for the enemy king, cast invisibility, teleport in, kill him with any number of spells (including use of summoned (or Gated!) monsters. Rinse. Repeat as needed until the king and his entire military leadership has collapsed and his armies are in complete disarray. Without magic to combat that...it's hard to see how you could possibly win (unless every man in your military is prepared to fight to death with or without leaders above him providing motivation. Magic directed at an enemy leadership can win a war with very limited losses on your own side. An army without leadership is no army at all. Assuming you have the magical firepower available, the best reasons I can think of to field large armies in D&D is (i) because your magic can't affect the enemy leadership directly for whatever reason (probably magical protections), (ii) because your culture considers such direct attacks on leadership dishonorable or some other factor prevents you from doing it or (iii) to hold territory after you've won the war. Then you also have the problem that wands of fireballs in the hands of first level wizards can clear out entire platoons of men at 600 feet (which is further than they can shoot). It's expensive, to be sure, but not *that* much more expensive that fielding knights in full plate astride armored destriers (and I'd suggest a lot more effective against men standing in tight formations than any two or three knights would be--and breaking up enemy formations was the primary use of knights and cavalry in general in European warfare). Flying mages might be needed to blow up airships, if they fly more than 600 feet off the ground, but presumably that's not that complicated either. You should at least give your technological nation some "artillery" capable of some similar effect. Pet peeve alert: "Decimate" is often used to mean "annihilate" but it more properly means to kill 1/10th of a group.
Potato Weasel 02-11-07, 11:10 PM	Ok, lead does -not-, I repeat -not- protect against lead. If you are in a completely lead lined room, you're protected from divination spells. Thats it. Any other type of magic works normally. As for your idea about nonmagical airships fire bombing from out of range of the low level wizards- a third level wizard has invisibility and fly. He uses both of these, flys up to your highly visible airship (your on low tech, with no magic, you -arent- flying in under the cover of a storm unless you want to lose 90% of your precious fleet) he then looks at your bays full of bombs, and your highly flammable ship. He casts burning hands which sets fire to it all. Your ship provides a spectacular fireworks display. If you want to go to war, get someone else on your side first. Seriously, even in a normal scenario, going up against two opponents at once is silly, especially when they outgun you. Find a religious nation, or even a monstrous one, at least it'll help a little.
Thomar_of_Uointer 02-11-07, 11:26 PM	The easiest thing to do is take advantage of the weaknesses of spellcasters and take comfort in the fact that your average footsoldier has a huge advantage over anybody with a longsword by virtue of having a sidearm. Basic combat training rule #1: if you recognize an enemy spellcaster, ready an action to shoot him the next time he does something. Basic combat training rule #2: if your enemy is within 70', shoot him. If he's closer and you're a front-liner, engage in melee. If he's closer and you have Precise Shot (not hard to get, a level 1 human can have it easily) get close and fire into the melee. By simple virtue of those two key training points (a level 20 caster is still in range of a firearm at fireball range) you can win the war easily. You're also not going to be wasting money on enchanted weapons for your generals and sergeants, so you can spread the wealth among your troops in the form of masterwork weapons. Finally, you get to use mile-high spy aircraft that can see the layout of enemy forces regardless of antimagic (and ignoring magics that create scrying-specific illusions) and your enemies can't do a thing about it besides use high-level illusions to mislead your troops. And bombs. If you have aircraft, you can't neglect bombs.
Captain Casualty 02-12-07, 09:30 AM	A while back i started a thread (one of the many debating just how awful fighters are) inwhich i suggested that fighters were the "duracell bunnies" of the D&D World. ie they just keep going when everyone else is spelled out. Whilst this was not generally accepted (the flames still burn) that seems to be the crux of your tactics. A third level mage will be able to cast about 10 spells including cantrips but not including stat mods. Thats an intresting sixty seconds. Ten combat rounds In a battle lasting several days then they make a difference at key points and at key times no question, but they can and will be ground down. People who assume that they are uber ignore the support and materiele required for Arcane casters. Divine casters would be a problem. Your only consolation would be that at the low levels being discussed they cant do many group Buffs. Frankly they make great shock troops with the effects as for Arcane of taking key points at key times. They however will also run out of spells. As for your idea about nonmagical airships fire bombing from out of range of the low level wizards- a third level wizard has invisibility and fly. He uses both of these, flys up to your highly visible airship (your on low tech, with no magic, you -arent- flying in under the cover of a storm unless you want to lose 90% of your precious fleet) he then looks at your bays full of bombs, and your highly flammable ship. He casts burning hands which sets fire to it all. Your ship provides a spectacular fireworks display.First of all fly and invisibility are third level spells not spells for third level mages.:P There are ways of making things fire resistant that do not require spells. Compartmentalised gas chambers. Fire retardent materials in construction. Frequent fire drills. Etc. If you want to go to war, get someone else on your side first. Seriously, even in a normal scenario, going up against two opponents at once is silly, especially when they outgun you. Find a religious nation, or even a monstrous one, at least it'll help a little.Allys always help. OK so what does all this mean? Essentially a Tech army can beat a Magic army in certain ways. Static battles - In a war of maneuver the enemys ability to take and hold key points will be vital Attrition - Allowing the opponent to fight when and where he wants is dumb. Force him to fight long protracted battles where his magic runs dry. Healing - this is his undisputed strong point. He will quite simply take less casualties as his wounded will be up and about the next day You can beat him. You will just lose a lot of people that way.
HappyPenguinOnAStick 02-12-07, 10:51 AM	Well, a bit more info about the enemy would be needed. I mean so fare it seems that everyone is assuming they wont make allies, they wont have anything els then wizards and so on. But ill assume that they would atleast have a few commen foot soldiers themselfs right? Maybe they also have a few allies and so on. I mean if you can "just make allies out of a monster nation" what is preventing them to do the same? My bet would be heavy use of assassins and switching your commanders around alot cause even if they are mostly low level wizards all they need is 1 high level one to scry and die all your leaders to death. Dunno, it seems like they have the upper hand. Are you at war with them yet? If not gather information and kill all their leaders in 1 night, cause if you arent able to take of the command chains top fast, they WILL destroy you over night. A nation of maigc (with just one or two high level wizards) will destroy a none magic nation in a few weeks if prepared, tbh you gotta get them off gaurd and assassinate them all before they can act. Or something like that. And the lead thing only works if the room is totallt covered by it, and its only against Scrying I think? Im properly wrong but I think its like that.
Burdell 02-12-07, 01:19 PM	While you focus your technology on "attrition warfare," magic makes "maneuver warfare" a very attractive option. At the most basic, scry for the enemy king, cast invisibility, teleport in, kill him with any number of spells (including use of summoned (or Gated!) monsters. Rinse. Repeat as needed until the king and his entire military leadership has collapsed and his armies are in complete disarray. And since the OP's example foes include wizards at all of 3rd level, they're going to be taking out a king and his bodyguards with what summoned monsters exactly? Celestial Badgers? :) Note the low levels mentioned; in this kind of scenario, the tech folks defininitely have a decent chance I'd say. While a magician gets to recharge his spells every day, there are a limited number of magicians, and if you kill or capture one, thats one less Fireball that side will *ever* have. Every soldier can throw a grenade. Tech is much better at concentrating firepower, say on an advancing army (try to avoid destroying cities, they are useful). OTOH, do watch for maneuver warfare type problems, magic does give impressive mobility in middle ages societies. OP, your worst problems aren't going to be things like Color Spray and Fireballs in fights, those are easily dealt with by maintaining fairly loose formations, and most of them have much shorter ranges then your guns, or even throwing javelins. Do make sure that your commanders aren't easily recognized, so that enemy mages don't focus fire on them, but thats some threat even with mundane firepower. The worst threats IMHO are the information gathering capabilities of the enemy mages, in particular things like Charm Person and Invisibility. Invisibility is fairly easy to deal with via; - beaded doorways (these can be done even in tents), then have someone watching them for anyone trying to slip through. - Guard dogs. Get *lots* of those for guarding meetings where strategy is being worked out, high officers, perimeters of camps, water supplies, bomb storing areas, etc. Low level illusions don't have smell, so they won't affect a dog. - Noisy footing (classic is rice paper in Japan), similarly for high value areas - Patrols/guards in groups of 3-4, maybe with a dog, it starts getting harder to drop them or mentally manipulate them all at once. Charm Person is tougher, because of its long duration. Remember, however, that it does *not* give complete mental control, it just makes someone your friend. A person with a strong sense of duty doesn't necessarily let even a friend stroll into a top secret meeting, for example. Look at all the real world examples of spouses who never find out what their mates work on at the CIA. Check for info manipulation spells that could crack codes, and use your superior knowledge of chemistry to make invisible ink. Keep careful control of belongings of anyone high ranking; you don't want to let hair clippings, etc. get into the wrong hands. Keep them disguised in public, so an enemy scryer doesn't have the good image they need to spy on them. Any kind of Fly/Invisibility combo starts getting tough against airships, since dogs don't work against it and birds generally don't have a keen sense of smell and may not be trainable to look for someone invisible. Hope they don't have Improved Invisibility, have lots of gunner/snipers on the lookout in enemy territory for when Inviso drops during a wizard attack, and disperse your airship gasbags, possibly even putting in water sprayers if tech allows, so that one fireball doesn't drop the whole ship. I like the idea of trying to take the weaker nation first, if you are confident enough that your tech won't leak out before the stronger nation has its turn. On the bright side, theres actually quite a bit of infrastructure and knowledge that has to go into effective construction and use of tech, so even if you gave full blueprints to everything you owned to the baddies, it could be many months or years before they figure out how to do large scale casting, boring, etc. Even the concept of a design drawing postdates most of the middle ages, and most craftsmen (other then maybe some castle and cathedral architects) wouldn't be used to reading them. If you can recruit some mages from the first nation into your ranks, just having a Detect Magic to weed out charmed messengers and such will be invaluable. Do try to make sure the DM is fair about the magic using nations and their knowledge of tech, a saboteaur wouldn't necessarily know how to sabotage a cannon, for example, or recognize a powder storage area. Also try to make sure training times are taken into account; the big advantage firearms had over bows in the middle ages is that you could train someone to use it in a couple of weeks. It took a lifetime of training (and a decent diet) to have a strong bowman. Thats one reason William the Conquerer only had around 7,000 guys to invade England with, but Napolean had an army of hundreds of thousands. Guns let you field a *much* larger army. Pay attention to logistics; there aren't an infinite number of Wands of Magic Missiles, some mage had to lower his own level to craft it, and the amount of XPs they pay isn't trivial for low level mages. Your tech workers only get better as they build things.
Pandaemoni 02-12-07, 01:38 PM	And since the OP's example foes include wizards at all of 3rd level, they're going to be taking out a king and his bodyguards with what summoned monsters exactly? Celestial Badgers? :) I was assuming that while the vast bulk of the mages may be low level, that there would be a few of higher level than that. A single high level mage could win a war for his country almost single handedly, given some time, good planning and perhaps a little luck. If high level mages existed in the real world, I doubt that attrition warfare would have dominated world history in the way it has. Admittedly, if *no* mage in service to the state is higher than 3rd level , then that's a different matter.
BW0222 02-12-07, 01:42 PM	DnDEstArsVitae, This is a highly pointless discussion. You brought forth a made up scenerio. First, the few concrete things you said, like lead in wall protecting against magic, are blatently false. You talk about rennosance era and then talk airships. History lesson... airships didn't exist until WWI. Second, anytime someone comes up with a perfectly legitimate way of using magic against your army, you change the rules. I see little reason why a group of 3rd-level wizards lead by a 9th-level wizard couldn't defeat the United States. Rob some gun stores. Have some hawk familiar scout out a nuclear power plant. Charm, detect thoughts, scry, and disquise self until you have some access codes. Teleport, d-door, inivisible, fly, passwall, disquise self, etc. your way in. Summon a few elementals in the control room, web some hallways, and have folks disquises as guards shoot the other guards. A wall of force across the reactor pool and teleport away. I'm picturing magic jar'd secret service agents shooting the president. Missing nuclear warheads from an air field. Lightning bolts taking out the Norad defensive computers. Cloudkills suddenly appearing during the Superbowl. Walls of fire appearing inside the torpedo room of a nuclear submarine. A air elemental taking out the president's helicopter. Invisible folks typing in time changes into flight computers at an air traffic control center. Confusion spells cast over a major highway intersection. The bridge of an oil tanker suddenly hit by a fireball and he ship drifting into the rocks. Several deadly disease samples missing from the CDC. etc., etc. Terrorism, assassinations, mass hysteria, etc. alone could end a nation, cause it's government to fall, get it to waste resources trying to protect itself, etc. That alone would likely get it to withdraw troops from your country. Honestly, with magic, taking over rennosance erra Italy, England, France, etc. would be easy. Fires in shipyards, fires in cities, water supplies tampered with, the queen suddenly found next to the body of a murdered king, your top military commander ordering a division to march somewhere he isn't supposed to go, your top religious leaders giving strange orders, messages requesting supplies go missing as hawk familiars eat the carrier pigeons, air ships are directed to places where they are captured, etc., etc.
Burdell 02-12-07, 02:34 PM	Rob some gun stores. Have some hawk familiar scout out a nuclear power plant. Charm, detect thoughts, scry, and disquise self until you have some access codes. Teleport, d-door, inivisible, fly, passwall, disquise self, etc. your way in. Summon a few elementals in the control room, web some hallways, and have folks disquises as guards shoot the other guards. A wall of force across the reactor pool and teleport away. I'm picturing magic jar'd secret service agents shooting the president. Missing nuclear warheads from an air field. Lightning bolts taking out the Norad defensive computers. Cloudkills suddenly appearing during the Superbowl. Walls of fire appearing inside the torpedo room of a nuclear submarine. A air elemental taking out the president's helicopter. Invisible folks typing in time changes into flight computers at an air traffic control center. Confusion spells cast over a major highway intersection. The bridge of an oil tanker suddenly hit by a fireball and he ship drifting into the rocks. Several deadly disease samples missing from the CDC. etc., etc. A couple of problems with this; 1. You assume the wizards all know about modern tech and, tacitly, that the modern folks don't know about (and thus can't devise defenses against) magic. 2. You assume that the wizards can essentially act as a terrorist organization and that there is nothing the tech country can do to fight back against the country known to be sending them, say nuke them till they glow. The band of wizards isn't going to be able to shut down the entire military force of the United States in a few days, and random destruction at the Superbowl doesn't necessarily cause a country to surrender in a war, see for example England in WW2. 3. Most of the spells (and some of the key ones you mention, i.e. Teleport) are higher level then the OP's foes have readily available. But, of course, this is not what the OP asked about. Given that he is king of his country at 13th level, it seems possible that a top level mage foe might be around the same level or even lower, and there might only be 1 of them, who could be reluctant to risk his life on teleport raids deep in enemy territory. Say a handful ranging from 7 to 11, and a few hundred in the 1-5 range. I'd find this an interesting scenario to play out, actually, though to be done the most fairly IMHO the GM needs to recruit another player to run the target magic country so he/she can act as an impartial referee between them. Its very hard to GM in a situation like this pretending not to know where to attack/defend and not to know strategic info the opposing side really wouldn't. The couple of times I've been involved in a rpg game war the GM did this, and it led to much less predictable results with a true "fog of war" on both sides.