Defending Gauntlets?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Defending Gauntlets?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Taureus_Drakken
02-23-07, 02:11 AM If the DM allows bonuses from multiple weapons to stack, which mine does btw, could you have both of your spiked gauntlets enchanted and then made defending?

And what about a helmet spike?

It seems to me that you are always considered to be wielding them...someone correct me if I am wrong.

The only stipulation my DM has is that each weapon you have made defending can't be greater than +3...which i believe balances them stacking...you could have a +3 defending dagger, +3 defending armor spikes, etc; and a greater bonus to AC than one +5 weapon.

Any help with the spiked gauntlets and helmet spike would be helpful...
Norsesmithy
02-23-07, 02:25 AM Try this on for size:
+3 defending sheild spikes on a +5 heavy sheild
+3 defending armour spikes on a +5 nimbleness Mithral Breastplate
+3 defending spiked gauntlets
+3 defending longsword
That is a potential +36 to AC before Combat expertise or Improved Combat Expertise or any other AC buffs like a ring of Natural Armour

If it weren't for the +3 only houserule you could stretch it to +44.
Taureus_Drakken
02-23-07, 02:55 AM I thought the spiked gauntlets would work.

So what do you think about a helmet spike...if you have read the Lone Drow trilogy you know what I am talking about :D .
Vintar
02-23-07, 11:44 AM I'd just consider that to be part of armor spikes. A helmet is in fact armor.
jaelis
02-23-07, 12:17 PM I don't see why you couldn't have two spiked gauntlets... they are single weapons, not a pair.

I don't know of any helmet weapons, but if you can talk your DM into one then you can make it defending.

I hear that Complete Scoundrel has some kind of blade boots, weapons for your feet. You could use them too.

I believe that you could put a Dwarf buckler-axe (or similar buckler weapon) on your sword arm as well. The shield bonus wouldn't stack, but you can make it a defending weapon.
Someone
02-23-07, 12:30 PM By "wielding", they mean "is the weapon you are making your attacks with". If you are wielding your two defending spiked gauntlets, you aren't wielding the defending swords in your hands. You have to use the weapon in order to benefit from the defending property.

Don't forget the TWF penalties for using the two defending weapons. Also, TWF is just that- TWO weapons. So its either two spiked gauntlets, a spiked gauntlet and armor spikes, armor spikes and a spiked shield bash, a spiked gauntlet and a spiked shield bash, etc.
Norsesmithy
02-23-07, 03:02 PM Not really, you just have to be able to attack with them, 'cause its not like the Defending property forces you to make the attacks
Taureus_Drakken
02-23-07, 03:28 PM Thats how I see it. It doesn't say you have to attack with it if you use the defending ability. At least that's how I am reading it.
jaelis
02-23-07, 05:36 PM Thats how I see it. It doesn't say you have to attack with it if you use the defending ability. At least that's how I am reading it.

It's how your DM reads it that matters.
paladin2019
02-23-07, 09:35 PM Defending is use activated, IIRC. Therefore, to claim the benefit, the weapon has to be used. Using a weapon=attacking with it, even if you don't make an attack roll. So, using a defending weapon in an off-hand counts as two-weapon fighting, with all the attendant penalties and reduced bonuses.

At least, that's my (D&D3E based, all books packed for a move) interpretation.
Stardust
02-23-07, 11:44 PM A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.

Emphasis mine. You apply the bonus before using the weapon, not before ignoring the weapon and attack with something completely different.

Surely it's completely obvious that you can't just put your AC through the roof by duct-taping defending knives on every conceivable part of your body and forgetting about them until you accidentally start disembowling people who walk too close...
Norsesmithy
02-24-07, 12:18 AM Emphasis mine. You apply the bonus before using the weapon, not before ignoring the weapon and attack with something completely different.

Surely it's completely obvious that you can't just put your AC through the roof by duct-taping defending knives on every conceivable part of your body and forgetting about them until you accidentally start disembowling people who walk too close...

See I read that section as saying that you can't use the weapon before deciding to trade to hit for AC, otherwise you could smack the bad guy with the +5 to hit and then give yourself +5 to AC until the start of your next turn. Otherwise the Dagger of Defence would be totally useless to a TWFer if you moved.

To me, the Use part of Use Activated, for a defending weapon, is being able to threaten with it.

Duct-taping knives to your body wouldn't cause you to threaten anything with them, so they wouldn't do you any good.
Stardust
02-24-07, 12:34 AM See I read that section as saying that you can't use the weapon before deciding to trade to hit for AC, otherwise you could smack the bad guy with the +5 to hit and then give yourself +5 to AC until the start of your next turn.

I think the way you read it is right as far as it goes, but that it stops short of the intent. You're obviously not supposed to be able to attack and then transfer, that's a given.

Otherwise the Dagger of Defence would be totally useless to a TWFer if you moved.

I don't quite get what you mean here, you mean if the dagger was in your off-hand and you moved and attacked with the primary hand and so didn't get to make an attack with the dagger? If that's what you mean, then it doesn't matter whether the weapon has the enchantment or not - if you move, you can't use it/attack with it/do anything else with it, except maybe drop it. TWF doesn't generally allow you to move and gain the benefit of both weapons with the exception of some feats. Why should it make a difference if the dagger is defending or not? You're effectively saying that you should get a permanent +5 AC even if you spend all your time holding the dagger and doing nothing else with it.

To me, the Use part of Use Activated, for a defending weapon, is being able to threaten with it.
Awesome. As a rogue with no shield proficiency, I'm not going to take any of the TWF feats, but I *am* going to carry a +5 defending dagger in my off-hand to claim free AC every turn. I'm not using the dagger? Who cares? I'm threatening with it! Even if any Aoo I make uses my primary weapon.

Duct-taping knives to your body wouldn't cause you to threaten anything with them, so they wouldn't do you any good.

I dunno, I reckon I could give somebody a pretty good smack upside the head if I had a few knives strapped to my hand/arm... So much different from holding it in my hand?
ScipioX
02-24-07, 12:47 AM The 3.0 FAQ answers this question explicitly... you need to attack in order to get the benefit.
Norsesmithy
02-24-07, 12:17 PM I guess the faq says I am wrong, so I will conceed.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Taureus_Drakken 02-23-07, 02:11 AM	If the DM allows bonuses from multiple weapons to stack, which mine does btw, could you have both of your spiked gauntlets enchanted and then made defending? And what about a helmet spike? It seems to me that you are always considered to be wielding them...someone correct me if I am wrong. The only stipulation my DM has is that each weapon you have made defending can't be greater than +3...which i believe balances them stacking...you could have a +3 defending dagger, +3 defending armor spikes, etc; and a greater bonus to AC than one +5 weapon. Any help with the spiked gauntlets and helmet spike would be helpful...
Norsesmithy 02-23-07, 02:25 AM	Try this on for size: +3 defending sheild spikes on a +5 heavy sheild +3 defending armour spikes on a +5 nimbleness Mithral Breastplate +3 defending spiked gauntlets +3 defending longsword That is a potential +36 to AC before Combat expertise or Improved Combat Expertise or any other AC buffs like a ring of Natural Armour If it weren't for the +3 only houserule you could stretch it to +44.
Taureus_Drakken 02-23-07, 02:55 AM	I thought the spiked gauntlets would work. So what do you think about a helmet spike...if you have read the Lone Drow trilogy you know what I am talking about :D .
Vintar 02-23-07, 11:44 AM	I'd just consider that to be part of armor spikes. A helmet is in fact armor.
jaelis 02-23-07, 12:17 PM	I don't see why you couldn't have two spiked gauntlets... they are single weapons, not a pair. I don't know of any helmet weapons, but if you can talk your DM into one then you can make it defending. I hear that Complete Scoundrel has some kind of blade boots, weapons for your feet. You could use them too. I believe that you could put a Dwarf buckler-axe (or similar buckler weapon) on your sword arm as well. The shield bonus wouldn't stack, but you can make it a defending weapon.
Someone 02-23-07, 12:30 PM	By "wielding", they mean "is the weapon you are making your attacks with". If you are wielding your two defending spiked gauntlets, you aren't wielding the defending swords in your hands. You have to use the weapon in order to benefit from the defending property. Don't forget the TWF penalties for using the two defending weapons. Also, TWF is just that- TWO weapons. So its either two spiked gauntlets, a spiked gauntlet and armor spikes, armor spikes and a spiked shield bash, a spiked gauntlet and a spiked shield bash, etc.
Norsesmithy 02-23-07, 03:02 PM	Not really, you just have to be able to attack with them, 'cause its not like the Defending property forces you to make the attacks
Taureus_Drakken 02-23-07, 03:28 PM	Thats how I see it. It doesn't say you have to attack with it if you use the defending ability. At least that's how I am reading it.
jaelis 02-23-07, 05:36 PM	Thats how I see it. It doesn't say you have to attack with it if you use the defending ability. At least that's how I am reading it. It's how your DM reads it that matters.
paladin2019 02-23-07, 09:35 PM	Defending is use activated, IIRC. Therefore, to claim the benefit, the weapon has to be used. Using a weapon=attacking with it, even if you don't make an attack roll. So, using a defending weapon in an off-hand counts as two-weapon fighting, with all the attendant penalties and reduced bonuses. At least, that's my (D&D3E based, all books packed for a move) interpretation.
Stardust 02-23-07, 11:44 PM	A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn. Emphasis mine. You apply the bonus before using the weapon, not before ignoring the weapon and attack with something completely different. Surely it's completely obvious that you can't just put your AC through the roof by duct-taping defending knives on every conceivable part of your body and forgetting about them until you accidentally start disembowling people who walk too close...
Norsesmithy 02-24-07, 12:18 AM	Emphasis mine. You apply the bonus before using the weapon, not before ignoring the weapon and attack with something completely different. Surely it's completely obvious that you can't just put your AC through the roof by duct-taping defending knives on every conceivable part of your body and forgetting about them until you accidentally start disembowling people who walk too close... See I read that section as saying that you can't use the weapon before deciding to trade to hit for AC, otherwise you could smack the bad guy with the +5 to hit and then give yourself +5 to AC until the start of your next turn. Otherwise the Dagger of Defence would be totally useless to a TWFer if you moved. To me, the Use part of Use Activated, for a defending weapon, is being able to threaten with it. Duct-taping knives to your body wouldn't cause you to threaten anything with them, so they wouldn't do you any good.
Stardust 02-24-07, 12:34 AM	See I read that section as saying that you can't use the weapon before deciding to trade to hit for AC, otherwise you could smack the bad guy with the +5 to hit and then give yourself +5 to AC until the start of your next turn. I think the way you read it is right as far as it goes, but that it stops short of the intent. You're obviously not supposed to be able to attack and then transfer, that's a given. Otherwise the Dagger of Defence would be totally useless to a TWFer if you moved. I don't quite get what you mean here, you mean if the dagger was in your off-hand and you moved and attacked with the primary hand and so didn't get to make an attack with the dagger? If that's what you mean, then it doesn't matter whether the weapon has the enchantment or not - if you move, you can't use it/attack with it/do anything else with it, except maybe drop it. TWF doesn't generally allow you to move and gain the benefit of both weapons with the exception of some feats. Why should it make a difference if the dagger is defending or not? You're effectively saying that you should get a permanent +5 AC even if you spend all your time holding the dagger and doing nothing else with it. To me, the Use part of Use Activated, for a defending weapon, is being able to threaten with it. Awesome. As a rogue with no shield proficiency, I'm not going to take any of the TWF feats, but I am going to carry a +5 defending dagger in my off-hand to claim free AC every turn. I'm not using the dagger? Who cares? I'm threatening with it! Even if any Aoo I make uses my primary weapon. Duct-taping knives to your body wouldn't cause you to threaten anything with them, so they wouldn't do you any good. I dunno, I reckon I could give somebody a pretty good smack upside the head if I had a few knives strapped to my hand/arm... So much different from holding it in my hand?
ScipioX 02-24-07, 12:47 AM	The 3.0 FAQ answers this question explicitly... you need to attack in order to get the benefit.
Norsesmithy 02-24-07, 12:17 PM	I guess the faq says I am wrong, so I will conceed.