Defending Quarterstaff gives +10? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Defending Quarterstaff gives +10? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TeenageHeat
06-21-07, 01:16 PM hey,
i was just wondering, since you can put magical enhancements on both sides of a double weapon, can you:

A. put enhancements on both sides of a quarterstaff?

B. if so, if you put +5 defending on both sides, and then use them all at once, could you give yourself +10 to your AC?

these may seem like stupid questions but i was just like thinking about it in the shower.
pres_man
06-21-07, 01:21 PM yeah, or you could use 2 of whatever. And two items would often be smarter than 1 double item, as a single sunder attempt would ruin your quarterstaff, where two sunders would be needed to ruin if you had 2 items.
TeenageHeat
06-21-07, 02:00 PM well the quarterstaff would be magical anyhoo so i'm sure that beefs the HP of it by a lot (especially with a total of +10 enhancements on it), i just wanted to know so this time around i can buff my elvencraft longbow (hehehe) on the quarterstaff parts and have it give me +10 AC all the time.
Thiez
06-21-07, 02:06 PM well the quarterstaff would be magical anyhoo so i'm sure that beefs the HP of it by a lot (especially with a total of +10 enhancements on it), i just wanted to know so this time around i can buff my elvencraft longbow (hehehe) on the quarterstaff parts and have it give me +10 AC all the time.

Include: Defending Armor Spikes and Defending Shield Spikes. Unnamed bonuses are fun! :)
Salla
06-21-07, 03:38 PM I would rule that 'Defending' does not stack with itself as a redundant application of the same effect (similar to how multiple Rays of Enfeeblement do not stack), but that's just me.
Ranger-99
06-21-07, 04:19 PM well the quarterstaff would be magical anyhoo so i'm sure that beefs the HP of it by a lot (especially with a total of +10 enhancements on it), i just wanted to know so this time around i can buff my elvencraft longbow (hehehe) on the quarterstaff parts and have it give me +10 AC all the time.

Only the enhancement bonus counts toward improving a weapon's hit points and hardness. So, if you had a quarterstaff with +5 and defending on each end, it's still the same as being only +5 in terms of HP and hardness. That is to say, +50 HP, +10 hardness.
mvincent
06-21-07, 04:36 PM I would rule that 'Defending' does not stack with itself as a redundant application of the same effect (similar to how multiple Rays of Enfeeblement do not stack), but that's just me.You are correct.

Obligatory notes regarding Multiple Defending Weapons:
Defending has the following wording:
"a bonus that stacks with all others."
... this is sometimes interpreted as indicating that it stacks with itself, but this appears unwarranted.

Take for example the wording for unnamed bonuses:
"A bonus that isn’t named stacks with any bonus."
... this is similar to (or even more permissive than) the wording for defending weapons, yet we do not interpret that to mean they can stack with themselves. In fact, we know that unnamed bonuses from the same source* don't stack with themselves. Note that "same source" in D&D does not refer to the "same item" (or same caster), but rather the "same effect” (or “same spell”).

It is most reasonable to view the bonus from defending as an unnamed bonus (as this is what it actually is). This is also the most balanced way to handle potential stacking problems.
risner
06-21-07, 04:48 PM if so, if you put +5 defending on both sides, and then use them all at once, could you give yourself +10 to your AC?

Defending weapons don't stack. So +5 AC, not +10 AC.
zelf_gale
06-21-07, 05:26 PM From the SRD

Defending: A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.

Moderate abjuration; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shield or shield of faith; Price +1 bonus.

While the description is somewhat convoluted and no FAQ entry has been created to my knowledge there are two points you should look at.

1. "...transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus...", could be interpreted as the enhancement can only be placed on swords. I am unaware if WOTC has contradicted themselves on this point in other literature but the most famous defending weapons, namely the one listed in the Dungeon Master's Guide and the one wielded by a somewhat famous Drow Ranger are both swords. Obviously this would be more clear if it read similar to the Keen weapon description, "...Only piercing or slashing weapons can be keen...".

2. "...bonus that stacks with all others...", could be interpreted as unnamed bonus which would stack with itself, or a special unnamed type bonus which stacks with all "other" bonuses but not bonus of the same type. Obviously, this would have been more clear if it read "...bonus that stacks with all bonuses..." if it was meant to stack with itself or "...bonus that stacks with all other different bonuses..." if it was not.

So in order of restrictiveness, most to least.

Only on swords, does not stack with itself.

Only on swords, stacks with itself. (Two bladed sword).

On any weapon, does not stack with itself. (Great on spikes you don't plan to use)

On any weapon, stacks with itself. (Armor spikes, "Shield Spike or Off hand weapon and Main hand weapon" or "Double weapon", and Gauntlets are the most weapons I believe you can technically wield at one time.)
mvincent
06-21-07, 05:42 PM "...transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus...", could be interpreted as the enhancement can only be placed on swords.That is an error. The 3.0 version (here (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html)) and the d20 modern version (here (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd)) of the defending description did not have the "sword" reference, even though it was mistakenly present in other weapon ability descriptions at the time. In 3.5, they removed the "sword" reference from other descriptions, but somehow (inadvertantly) added it to the defending description.

I am unaware if WOTC has contradicted themselves on this point in other literature but the most famous defending weapons, namely the one listed in the Dungeon Master's Guide and the one wielded by a somewhat famous Drow Ranger are both swords. I believe those are "scimitars" rather than actual "swords" ; )

Also, a dwarf with a defending light pick can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20020705a), and a defending spiked chain can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/weapons.htm#everwhirlingChain).
tarkin
06-21-07, 05:45 PM Also, you must make an attack with that weapon to gain the defending property, and if you stop attacking with it, you lose the benefit of ti.

If you are using TWF, you could use two of them. You would need Multi-weapon feat to get more than two of them.
mvincent
06-21-07, 06:00 PM Also, you pretty clearly must make an attack with that weapon to gain the defending propertyWell, it does not appear to be that clear. The rules don't say that, they simply say:
"the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon"

Now, the 3.0 FAQ said:
"Using a weapon of defending works just like the Expertise
feat. (You have to use an attack or full attack action.) You can’t
use the weapon like a shield; if you hold the weapon in your off
hand and claim an Armor Class bonus for it, you take all the
penalties for fighting with two weapons, even if you don’t
actually attack with the weapon."

This is likely a good reference for intent, but it is still a bit suspect in 3.5. This answer implied something about TWF'ing that the same author (Skip Williams) later gave a different ruling on in 3.5. It nonetheless serves as the best answer we have.
tarkin
06-21-07, 06:37 PM OK, I removed the clearly part.

I always forget the potential for someone's greed to make them ignore what is in front of their face.
TeenageHeat
06-22-07, 01:10 AM yeah i think +10 is definitely a useful bow loophole i may have stumbled upon, but i doubt i'd ever use it, i mean there are just so many better options than that, just a funny/kind of useful idea for some flavor or something.
mvincent
06-22-07, 01:55 AM hey,
i was just wondering, since you can put magical enhancements on both sides of a double weapon, can you:

A. put enhancements on both sides of a quarterstaff?

B. if so, if you put +5 defending on both sides, and then use them all at once, could you give yourself +10 to your AC?

these may seem like stupid questions but i was just like thinking about it in the shower.Thank you for sharing your staff enhancement ideas that you think about in the shower.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TeenageHeat 06-21-07, 01:16 PM	hey, i was just wondering, since you can put magical enhancements on both sides of a double weapon, can you: A. put enhancements on both sides of a quarterstaff? B. if so, if you put +5 defending on both sides, and then use them all at once, could you give yourself +10 to your AC? these may seem like stupid questions but i was just like thinking about it in the shower.
pres_man 06-21-07, 01:21 PM	yeah, or you could use 2 of whatever. And two items would often be smarter than 1 double item, as a single sunder attempt would ruin your quarterstaff, where two sunders would be needed to ruin if you had 2 items.
TeenageHeat 06-21-07, 02:00 PM	well the quarterstaff would be magical anyhoo so i'm sure that beefs the HP of it by a lot (especially with a total of +10 enhancements on it), i just wanted to know so this time around i can buff my elvencraft longbow (hehehe) on the quarterstaff parts and have it give me +10 AC all the time.
Thiez 06-21-07, 02:06 PM	well the quarterstaff would be magical anyhoo so i'm sure that beefs the HP of it by a lot (especially with a total of +10 enhancements on it), i just wanted to know so this time around i can buff my elvencraft longbow (hehehe) on the quarterstaff parts and have it give me +10 AC all the time. Include: Defending Armor Spikes and Defending Shield Spikes. Unnamed bonuses are fun! :)
Salla 06-21-07, 03:38 PM	I would rule that 'Defending' does not stack with itself as a redundant application of the same effect (similar to how multiple Rays of Enfeeblement do not stack), but that's just me.
Ranger-99 06-21-07, 04:19 PM	well the quarterstaff would be magical anyhoo so i'm sure that beefs the HP of it by a lot (especially with a total of +10 enhancements on it), i just wanted to know so this time around i can buff my elvencraft longbow (hehehe) on the quarterstaff parts and have it give me +10 AC all the time. Only the enhancement bonus counts toward improving a weapon's hit points and hardness. So, if you had a quarterstaff with +5 and defending on each end, it's still the same as being only +5 in terms of HP and hardness. That is to say, +50 HP, +10 hardness.
mvincent 06-21-07, 04:36 PM	I would rule that 'Defending' does not stack with itself as a redundant application of the same effect (similar to how multiple Rays of Enfeeblement do not stack), but that's just me.You are correct. Obligatory notes regarding Multiple Defending Weapons: Defending has the following wording: "a bonus that stacks with all others." ... this is sometimes interpreted as indicating that it stacks with itself, but this appears unwarranted. Take for example the wording for unnamed bonuses: "A bonus that isn’t named stacks with any bonus." ... this is similar to (or even more permissive than) the wording for defending weapons, yet we do not interpret that to mean they can stack with themselves. In fact, we know that unnamed bonuses from the same source* don't stack with themselves. Note that "same source" in D&D does not refer to the "same item" (or same caster), but rather the "same effect” (or “same spell”). It is most reasonable to view the bonus from defending as an unnamed bonus (as this is what it actually is). This is also the most balanced way to handle potential stacking problems.
risner 06-21-07, 04:48 PM	if so, if you put +5 defending on both sides, and then use them all at once, could you give yourself +10 to your AC? Defending weapons don't stack. So +5 AC, not +10 AC.
zelf_gale 06-21-07, 05:26 PM	From the SRD Defending: A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn. Moderate abjuration; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shield or shield of faith; Price +1 bonus. While the description is somewhat convoluted and no FAQ entry has been created to my knowledge there are two points you should look at. 1. "...transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus...", could be interpreted as the enhancement can only be placed on swords. I am unaware if WOTC has contradicted themselves on this point in other literature but the most famous defending weapons, namely the one listed in the Dungeon Master's Guide and the one wielded by a somewhat famous Drow Ranger are both swords. Obviously this would be more clear if it read similar to the Keen weapon description, "...Only piercing or slashing weapons can be keen...". 2. "...bonus that stacks with all others...", could be interpreted as unnamed bonus which would stack with itself, or a special unnamed type bonus which stacks with all "other" bonuses but not bonus of the same type. Obviously, this would have been more clear if it read "...bonus that stacks with all bonuses..." if it was meant to stack with itself or "...bonus that stacks with all other different bonuses..." if it was not. So in order of restrictiveness, most to least. Only on swords, does not stack with itself. Only on swords, stacks with itself. (Two bladed sword). On any weapon, does not stack with itself. (Great on spikes you don't plan to use) On any weapon, stacks with itself. (Armor spikes, "Shield Spike or Off hand weapon and Main hand weapon" or "Double weapon", and Gauntlets are the most weapons I believe you can technically wield at one time.)
mvincent 06-21-07, 05:42 PM	"...transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus...", could be interpreted as the enhancement can only be placed on swords.That is an error. The 3.0 version (here (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html)) and the d20 modern version (here (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd)) of the defending description did not have the "sword" reference, even though it was mistakenly present in other weapon ability descriptions at the time. In 3.5, they removed the "sword" reference from other descriptions, but somehow (inadvertantly) added it to the defending description. I am unaware if WOTC has contradicted themselves on this point in other literature but the most famous defending weapons, namely the one listed in the Dungeon Master's Guide and the one wielded by a somewhat famous Drow Ranger are both swords. I believe those are "scimitars" rather than actual "swords" ; ) Also, a dwarf with a defending light pick can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20020705a), and a defending spiked chain can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/weapons.htm#everwhirlingChain).
tarkin 06-21-07, 05:45 PM	Also, you must make an attack with that weapon to gain the defending property, and if you stop attacking with it, you lose the benefit of ti. If you are using TWF, you could use two of them. You would need Multi-weapon feat to get more than two of them.
mvincent 06-21-07, 06:00 PM	Also, you pretty clearly must make an attack with that weapon to gain the defending propertyWell, it does not appear to be that clear. The rules don't say that, they simply say: "the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon" Now, the 3.0 FAQ said: "Using a weapon of defending works just like the Expertise feat. (You have to use an attack or full attack action.) You can’t use the weapon like a shield; if you hold the weapon in your off hand and claim an Armor Class bonus for it, you take all the penalties for fighting with two weapons, even if you don’t actually attack with the weapon." This is likely a good reference for intent, but it is still a bit suspect in 3.5. This answer implied something about TWF'ing that the same author (Skip Williams) later gave a different ruling on in 3.5. It nonetheless serves as the best answer we have.
tarkin 06-21-07, 06:37 PM	OK, I removed the clearly part. I always forget the potential for someone's greed to make them ignore what is in front of their face.
TeenageHeat 06-22-07, 01:10 AM	yeah i think +10 is definitely a useful bow loophole i may have stumbled upon, but i doubt i'd ever use it, i mean there are just so many better options than that, just a funny/kind of useful idea for some flavor or something.
mvincent 06-22-07, 01:55 AM	hey, i was just wondering, since you can put magical enhancements on both sides of a double weapon, can you: A. put enhancements on both sides of a quarterstaff? B. if so, if you put +5 defending on both sides, and then use them all at once, could you give yourself +10 to your AC? these may seem like stupid questions but i was just like thinking about it in the shower.Thank you for sharing your staff enhancement ideas that you think about in the shower.