Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arkhain 11-08-04, 12:41 PM	If I'm taking all 5 points of enh bonus on a +5 defender to go towards AC, do I still get +1 to hit from the masterwork quality?
MetalGemini 11-08-04, 02:03 PM	When you enchant your weapon, the +1 enhancement replaces the +1 to hit for masterwork quality. So I +5 weapon is just +5 to hit and +5 to damage. (not +6 to hit, +5 to damage) So with the defending special ability, you can only use the 5 points from the enhancement, the +1 from masterwork is essentially gone.
ThatDarnCat 11-08-04, 02:34 PM	What he said. The inherant bonuses of any masterwork weapon or armor are lost when the item is enchanted. Even a mere +1 (the minimum enchantment allowed) replaces this bonus.
The Fireballed Mage 11-08-04, 02:41 PM	Actually, the +1 magical enhancement bonus overlaps the +1 mw enhancement bonus. They are the same kind of bonus (enhancement) so they don't stack, but they're both still there. In an anti-magic field, a +3 magic weapon is still a +1 masterwork weapon. So, if you transfer all your magic defending bonus to your AC, the +1 masterwork enhancement is still there because when you reduce the magic plus to 0, the +1 masterwork is still there. However, your weapon is no longer has a magic attack bonus, so it is treated as a non-magic weapon for the purposes of DR.
Inigo Carmine 11-08-04, 06:24 PM	Fireball pretty much has the right of it, but I just wanted to clarify one point. In an anti-magic field, a +3 magic weapon is still a +1 masterwork weapon It's still a masterwork, and it still receive a +1 bonus to attacks (not damage). It is not, however, a "+1" weapon which is what it kind of sounds like when you say "+1 Masterwork Weapon". I'm sure you didn't mean to sound like that, but it can be taken like that, especially by those who are not sure of the rule to begin with.
Arkhain 11-08-04, 06:36 PM	So, if I transfer all of the sword's magical enh bonus to AC, do I still get a +1 to hit? :confused:
macfry 11-08-04, 10:21 PM	So, if I transfer all of the sword's magical enh bonus to AC, do I still get a +1 to hit? :confused: Yes you do. They overlap, if you take the whole bonus away, the +1 to hit is still there. Not +1 damage, though.
UZI 11-08-04, 10:58 PM	It's still a magic weapon to overcome DR, and it still has the hitpoints and hardness of a magic weapon with the appropriate magical enhancement bonus.
The Fireballed Mage 11-09-04, 12:05 PM	It's still a magic weapon to overcome DR, and it still has the hitpoints and hardness of a magic weapon with the appropriate magical enhancement bonus. I'm not too sure on that, since it no longer has a magic bonus to attack. Rather than arguing, let's look for an offical answer: what is the offical ruling with regards to conducting a shield bash with a +1 shield (no special abilities)? If the shield is treated as a magic weapon, then what you say applies. But I think I recall (no proof, I just think I saw it written somewhere once), that a shield bash even with a magic shield is a non-magic attack, unless it has the bashing special ability or magic spikes. I'm sure you didn't mean to sound like that, but it can be taken like that, especially by those who are not sure of the rule to begin with. Quite correct. A mistaken use of words on my part. To correct: In an anti-magic field your +3 magic weapon is treated as a masterwork weapon, so the weapon's bonus is +1 to hit, +0 to damage, following the rules for masterwork.
Uber Goblin 11-09-04, 02:15 PM	Alright, Hypathetical situation! You are a Kensai with a +5 weapon from Ancestral relic, then you bump your +5 weapon up to a +5 defending weapon( is defending +1?) at Kensai level 6. Now, your weapon is +5 from the kensai AND from Ancestral Relic, so it is doubly a +5 magical weapon. The two don't stack, BUT, since you have 2 bonus' when you apply only one of the +5 to ac, do you have a weapon that is both +5 AND grants +5 to ac?
Keenath 11-09-04, 02:57 PM	Oof! I'm not sure if that's kosher... Doesn't he Kensai have to start with a non-magical masterwork weapon? And how'd you get a +5 Ancestral Relic at 5th level? Or a Kensai +5 weapon? Doesn't it only increase by +1 every OTHER level? Meh, anyway.. If we go for a slightly more legitimate use, you could have a +3 Defending sword, dump the +3 to your AC, then cast Greater Magic Weapon on it for +3 again. Final answer, yes, you could do that. Normally it wouldn't help because it's all enhancement and doesn't stack, but if you move the +3 off to AC, there's no stacking issue and you can use the spell to keep your damage the same. That's not a bad strategy, actually, for a cleric who's going for massive AC and has filled almost everything to the point that they can't find new bonuses that'll stack.
Uber Goblin 11-09-04, 04:28 PM	The Kenai only has to be level 11 to get a +5 weapon with a +1 enchantment mod or 12 for a +2. He can use a magic weapon as his signature weapon as well. So, if he starts with a magic weapon, then spends the XP uselessly ( or so his dm THINKS) to make the +5 magic sword DOUBLY +5. Granted they don't stack but they are STILL IN EFFECT, so when one is taken away the other remains! This brings up a good question about doubly enchanting a weapon with defending. It might cost a little more, well, double the weapon's enchantment cost. But think about how much money you save instead of havig it go up exponentialy! Besides, once it has a +6 enchantment it goes over a million dollars according to epic rules. *looks up...* ok sorry for the off topic...
macfry 11-09-04, 05:23 PM	You can't make a weapon 'doubly +5' or doubly any enhancement bonus. Theres no such thing. You can add on to the enchantment with Kensai to +5, then add special abilities.
Uber Goblin 11-09-04, 05:57 PM	Why not? where does it say that? It states the bonus' dont stack, but it doen't say you can't! You can cast cat's grace on someone with gloves of dexterity. The bonus' don't stack but you can still do it even though it's dumb ;) Keep your laws off my weapons :D I am pro-choice, and I choose to be dumb :)
Hypersmurf 11-09-04, 06:17 PM	It's still a magic weapon to overcome DR, and it still has the hitpoints and hardness of a magic weapon with the appropriate magical enhancement bonus. I don't agree at all. "Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters." Does your sword have a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls? No, you've transferred it as an unnamed bonus to AC. No overcoming DR for you! "Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s or shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points." How many +1s of enhancement bonus does your weapon have? None; you've transferred them all as an unnamed bonus to AC. No extra hardness or hit points for you! But I think I recall (no proof, I just think I saw it written somewhere once), that a shield bash even with a magic shield is a non-magic attack, unless it has the bashing special ability or magic spikes. If the shield has a +1 shield enhancement bonus (increasing its shield bonus), it doesn't have a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls. But you can craft a shield as a magic weapon as well/instead (with or without spikes). In that case, if you have a magical enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls (also available, as you note, through the Bashing ability), you can overcome DR X/Magic. -Hyp.
Aracor 11-09-04, 07:24 PM	"Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s or shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points." How many +1s of enhancement bonus does your weapon have? None; you've transferred them all as an unnamed bonus to AC. No extra hardness or hit points for you! Waitaminit...You're telling me that a +5 defending weapon spontaneously becomes weaker and easier to break because you're using its defending ability? I find that one a bit difficult to swallow, honestly. Using the weapon for the purpose it was intended makes it easier to break...huh. ~Aracor
Hypersmurf 11-09-04, 07:41 PM	Waitaminit...You're telling me that a +5 defending weapon spontaneously becomes weaker and easier to break because you're using its defending ability? Is that so different to the fact that fighting defensively makes you easier to disarm? -Hyp.
The Fireballed Mage 11-09-04, 07:55 PM	Waitaminit...You're telling me that a +5 defending weapon spontaneously becomes weaker and easier to break because you're using its defending ability? I find that one a bit difficult to swallow, honestly. Using the weapon for the purpose it was intended makes it easier to break...huh. No, I think it's a case of, "Oh... when we wrote these rules we forgot that defending weapons can reduce their bonus. Silly us, and silly players for thinking of such a thing." The transfer of the magic has no effect on the hardness or hp of a weapon. Just like in an anti-magic field your weapons and armour doesn't get noticably weaker. It's a case of speed of play. No one really wants to recalculate the hardness and hp of all their equipment just for when they're standing in front of a beholder, vs. when they're flanking the same beholder. Just accept it as something the rules-makers didn't think of, shrug your shoulders and get back to playing the game. you could have a +3 Defending sword, dump the +3 to your AC, then cast Greater Magic Weapon on it for +3 again. Final answer, yes, you could do that. Normally it wouldn't help because it's all enhancement and doesn't stack, but if you move the +3 off to AC, there's no stacking issue and you can use the spell to keep your damage the same. That is one of the most marvelous and creative uses of rule abuse I have ever seen. You should be proud of yourself. Legally: Defender weapon +3. Has +3 enhancement bonus. Add Greater Magic Weapon for +3 enhancement bonus. Currently has +3 weapon enhancement, and +3 spell enchancement. They overlap, not stack, so +3 weapon. Transfer +3 weapon enhancement to AC: so weapon enhancement now +0, spell enhancement still +3. Ergo: a +3 to AC, +3 to attacks and damage. As a player, I'd be laughing at the look my DM would give me. As a DM, I'd blink a few times, give the character 250XP for thinking outside the box, and promptly disallow it. Why would I disallow it? From the SRD: Defending: A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. If you choose to read that as any enhancements on the sword as opposed to limiting it to the sword's own enhancement: 1 defending sword + 3 clerics all casting GMW on the same weapon, and transfering it all to AC = 1 crying DM.
Hypersmurf 11-09-04, 08:28 PM	Just like in an anti-magic field your weapons and armour doesn't get noticably weaker. I'd say on the contrary, that's exactly what happens. If someone deals 10 points of damage to your +3 greatsword (40 hit points... 10 + 10 per point of enhancement), and then casts a targeted Dispel Magic, suppressing the greatsword's magic for three rounds, it become a nonmagical greatsword (10 hit points) that's taken 10 points of damage... and breaks. -Hyp.
The Fireballed Mage 11-09-04, 09:23 PM	I'd say on the contrary, that's exactly what happens. -Hyp. Maybe it does, and a literal reading of the rules most likely supports your stance. Feel free to run your games that way, but I'm not going to worry about that in my game. There comes a time when you simply say, "The rules may say A, but I'm doing it B because the creaters can't think of everything, and I'm interested in playing a game, not doing all the math."