Defending weapons and attack bonuses [Archive] - Wizards Community

Defending weapons and attack bonuses [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Elussan of the Bow
02-10-06, 09:00 AM I know that defending weapons bestow some or all of their enhancement bonuses to a character's armor class, but in the case of bestowing all of the enhancement bonus, would the character still get a +1 to attack from the weapon being a masterwork item?

Food for thought/debate.
kjenks
02-10-06, 10:15 AM The strange wording of the Defending ability interacts with the way enhancement bonuses overlap in an odd way.

The +1 enhancement bonus from being masterwork overlaps with (does not stack with) the +2 magical enhancement bonus on that +2 Defending longsword.

According to the Defending ability description, you can transfer "some" of your enhancement bonus to AC, like if you have a +2 Defending longsword and you transfer +1 to AC. Or you can transfer "all" of your enhancement bonus to AC, like if you have a +2 Defending longsword and you transfer +2 to AC.

The enhancement bonus from being masterwork is clearly an enhancement bonus, so if you've transferred "all" of it to AC, how much do you have left for attack? None.

Some means some, all means all. In this example, you can't transfer +2 to AC and call it "some" of the bonus -- that would be "all" of the bonus.

See how it works?

In summary, no, you can't retain your +1 enhancement bonus on attacks after you transfer all of your all of your bonus to AC. Why? Because all of the enhancement bonuses have been transfered to AC.
Elussan of the Bow
02-10-06, 10:21 AM Fair enough, and sensical. Thanks!
Soulburn84
02-10-06, 12:13 PM I beg to differ. The Defending ability is refering to the Magical Enhancment bonus, the Masterwork quality is mundane. Mundane abilities stay even if magical abilities are removed.
kjenks
02-10-06, 12:22 PM I beg to differ. The Defending ability is refering to the Magical Enhancment bonus, the Masterwork quality is mundane. Mundane abilities stay even if magical abilities are removed.

Differ if you like, but the Defending ability description does not make a distinction between magical and nonmagical enhancement bonuses. All means all.

Defending: A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.
Moderate abjuration; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shield or shield of faith; Price +1 bonus.
Kapalen
02-10-06, 12:31 PM Differ if you like, but the Defending ability description does not make a distinction between magical and nonmagical enhancement bonuses. All means all.

But it's also stated that you need a +1 bonus before you can bestow any magical abilities on a weapon, yet, the +1 to hit from a masterwork item doesn't count, they made the distinction right there.
Soulburn84
02-10-06, 12:41 PM Differ if you like, but the Defending ability description does not make a distinction between magical and nonmagical enhancement bonuses. All means all.
So what you are saying is, if I have a +2 Defending Dagger I can remove all enhancement bonuses (which you are saying Masterwork is one) and gain +3 to my AC?

Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat. All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons, but their masterwork bonus on attack rolls does not stack with their enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
It seems to me that enhancement bonuses definitely refer to the magical property, as they apply to both attack and damage, where as masterwork (which you see they call it a masterwork bonus, not an enhancement bonus) is only to attacks.
kjenks
02-10-06, 02:13 PM So what you are saying is, if I have a +2 Defending Dagger I can remove all enhancement bonuses (which you are saying Masterwork is one) and gain +3 to my AC?

Was that what I said?

No, read it again. The enhancement bonuses overlap; they don't stack.

They call it an enhancement bonus in the PH, where masterwork weapons are defined.

SRD
===
MASTERWORK WEAPONS
A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.

You can’t add the masterwork quality to a weapon after it is created; it must be crafted as a masterwork weapon (see the Craft skill). The masterwork quality adds 300 gp to the cost of a normal weapon (or 6 gp to the cost of a single unit of ammunition). Adding the masterwork quality to a double weapon costs twice the normal increase (+600 gp).

Masterwork ammunition is damaged (effectively destroyed) when used. The enhancement bonus of masterwork ammunition does not stack with any enhancement bonus of the projectile weapon firing it.

All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the masterwork quality doesn’t stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon’s magic.
===
Soulburn84
02-10-06, 02:34 PM Differ if you like, but the Defending ability description does not make a distinction between magical and nonmagical enhancement bonuses. All means all.Defending: A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.
Moderate abjuration; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shield or shield of faith; Price +1 bonus.
According to this that is what you said. They do not stack, that is correct. Hence with my dagger (+2 Defending) if I take two off of it and add it to my AC I'm still left with a Masterwork dagger, granting a +1 Enhancment bonus to attack rolls. Same with other things that overlap but do not stack. If I have two castings of Mage Armor on, and one gets dispelled the second one kicks in and I still have a Mage Armor effect going.
kjenks
02-10-06, 03:18 PM So are you saying that "all" means most?

It's all in the wording, Soulburn84.

+2 Defending longsword

+2 attack/damage, +0 AC = no EB transfered to AC
+1 attack/damage, +1 AC = some EB transfered to AC
+0 attack/damage, +2 AC = all EB transfered to AC

Choose one.
Soulburn84
02-10-06, 03:34 PM So are you saying that "all" means most?

It's all in the wording, Soulburn84.

+2 Defending longsword

+2 attack/damage, +0 AC = no EB transfered to AC
+1 attack/damage, +1 AC = some EB transfered to AC
+0 attack/damage, +2 AC = all EB transfered to AC

Choose one.
Yes but according to you ...
In summary, no, you can't retain your +1 enhancement bonus on attacks after you transfer all of your all of your bonus to AC. Why? Because all of the enhancement bonuses have been transfered to AC.

Not all enhancement bonuses have been transfered. You are the one saying that the masterwork bonus counts as an enhancement bonus, yet you disagree that if you remove all enhancement bonuses you wouldn't add in the masterwork bonus going to AC. I'm saying that the masterwork bonus does not count in the configuration at all, you can't subtract it for the bonus, so therefore you don't lose it.

The SRD clearly says that the masterwork enhancement bonus differs from the magical one here ...
Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat. All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons, but their masterwork bonus on attack rolls does not stack with their enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
So once you remove all of the enhancement bonuses (the +2) you are still left with a non-magical enhancement bonus of +1 to attack rolls. And note that it says the Masterwork bonus doesn't stack on attack rolls only.
Lord Lorac Silvanos
02-10-06, 04:54 PM Soulburn may I suggest that you look at it from another angle.
While you of course are correct should the magical enhancement bonuses somehow be removed you would be left with a masterwork weapon that provided a +1 enhancement bonus on attack, this is not really what is going on with the defending enchantment.

...As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.

So take the +2 Defending longsword from before. At the start of the turn these +2 are allocated between AC and attack/damage. You do not remove anything from the sword.
Hope you can see the distinction.
Soulburn84
02-10-06, 08:30 PM Soulburn may I suggest that you look at it from another angle.
While you of course are correct should the magical enhancement bonuses somehow be removed you would be left with a masterwork weapon that provided a +1 enhancement bonus on attack, this is not really what is going on with the defending enchantment.

So take the +2 Defending longsword from before. At the start of the turn these +2 are allocated between AC and attack/damage. You do not remove anything from the sword.
Hope you can see the distinction.
It's not a matter of being removed, it's a matter of the magical enhancement bonus is no longer greater than the masterwork enhancement bonus.

Take this example: A level 5 fighter with 16 strength and our example +2 Defending Longsword. She has +5 Base Attack Bonus, +3 Strength Bonus, +2 Magical Enhancement Bonus, and a +1 Masterwork Bonus, for a total of +10 to Hit. The Masterwork Bonus is ignored because the Magical Bonus is the same type, and greater. So say our Fighter takes the +2 Magical Enhancement bonus and adds it to her AC, she now has; +5 Base Attack Bonus, +3 Strength Bonus, +0 Magical Enhancement Bonus, and a +1 Masterwork Enhancement Bonus, so her to Hit is now +9. Once again the Bonuses do not stack, but now the Masterwork Enhancement is greater than the Magical Enhancement Bonus.
Lord Lorac Silvanos
02-10-06, 08:52 PM The problem with your reasoning is that the Defending ability does not have the ability to remove the enhancement bonus, it is still overlapping the enhancement bonus from masterwork.

Defending: A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.

For all other purposes, the enhancement bonus of the weapon is still +2 (assuming we still use the good ol' longsword) so the +1 to attack from the sword being masterwork is still overlapped by the magical +2.
In other words, the magical enchantment +2 is still in effect, although it is now deployed in a different through the defending special ability, so the masterwork enhancement is not greater than the magical enhancement.
ninjeff
02-11-06, 12:22 AM An enhancement bonus of +2 that is being applied as "+0 to attack, +0 to damage and +2 to AC" overlaps with an enhancement bonus of +1 that can only be applied as "+1 to attack, +0 to damage and +0 to AC" as follows: "+1 to attack, +0 to damage and +2 to AC".
AbsentMindedProfessor
02-11-06, 12:15 PM Ok, let's add a little more fuek to the fire and ask this:

If you make a sword of the planes a defender, then could it transfer even more than the base while on another plane?
Lord Lorac Silvanos
02-11-06, 01:20 PM An enhancement bonus of +2 that is being applied as "+0 to attack, +0 to damage and +2 to AC" overlaps with an enhancement bonus of +1 that can only be applied as "+1 to attack, +0 to damage and +0 to AC" as follows: "+1 to attack, +0 to damage and +2 to AC".

Yes, that is correct.

However, as I read the Defending special ability it does not discriminate between the sources of the enhancement bonus it just tells you to allocate THE enhancement bonus as you see fit. You are not allocating only the magical enhancement but ALL enhancement.
This, in my view, also prevents you from leaving the +1 from masterwork behind, when you allocate all the bonus to AC.
dragonseth
02-11-06, 07:04 PM My personal take is this:
If said fighter takes said sword and allocates the +2 enhancement bonus from att/dmg to AC, he retains the +1 enhancement bonus from MW. When two bonuses of the same name are affecting a stat, the higher one wins. HOWEVER, on attack rolls with the +2 allocated to AC, only the MW application of enhancement bonuses is affecting the attack roll, so I would say that it can't be overridden by a bonus not applied to the roll. The +2 bonus is no longer a bonus/penalty to the roll, so the MW can't stack/be overridden by it. To use a poor analogy, and probably a bad one as will be pointed out in the next few posts, it's like saying I have two Inherent bonuses, and only the higher one applies, but the bonuses are to two different things. I would see this as dividing it up into a +2 enhancement bonus to AC, and +1 enhancement bonus to attack coming from the weapon. Different rolls. Don't interact.
Feel free to tear to pieces, just my :twocents:
Soulburn84
02-12-06, 03:41 PM Yes, that is correct.

However, as I read the Defending special ability it does not discriminate between the sources of the enhancement bonus it just tells you to allocate THE enhancement bonus as you see fit. You are not allocating only the magical enhancement but ALL enhancement.
This, in my view, also prevents you from leaving the +1 from masterwork behind, when you allocate all the bonus to AC.
This is what I keep pointing out. You can't say the Masterwork Bonus gets removed by the Defending property and not get applied to AC. If you are saying it's an Enhancement bonus that gets taken away in the "all" category then it would also have to add to the AC bonus, which is ridiculous. You can't have it both ways, either it is counted as an Enhancement bonus for the Defending property and you would have the option of allocating it to your AC. Or it's not applicable for Defending and ignored for the ability.

I will once again refer to the fact that the Defending property is referring to this....
Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat. All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons, but their masterwork bonus on attack rolls does not stack with their enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
.... Enhancement Bonuses, according to the Magical Weapons section, apply to both Attack and Damage. The masterwork Quality only adds to Attack rolls. I still say that the Masterwork Quality is ignored in this case all together. But even in your explanation of the Masterwork bonus getting taken away, if you count the Masterwork bonus as an Enhancement bonus you can still...
Defending: A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.
... Opt to take some of their "Enhancement bonus" and not remove the Masterwork Bonus.
yuenglingdragon
02-12-06, 05:18 PM The problem with your reasoning is that the Defending ability does not have the ability to remove the enhancement bonus, it is still overlapping the enhancement bonus from masterwork.

For all other purposes, the enhancement bonus of the weapon is still +2 (assuming we still use the good ol' longsword) so the +1 to attack from the sword being masterwork is still overlapped by the magical +2.
In other words, the magical enchantment +2 is still in effect, although it is now deployed in a different through the defending special ability, so the masterwork enhancement is not greater than the magical enhancement.

I believe this is the correct interpretation. The weapon is still a +2 weapon with a +2 enhancement bonus. The bonus, however, is being put to a different use. It still retains the bonus to hp and hardness that comes with the enhancement bonus. You can't use the masterwork bonus.
Lord Lorac Silvanos
02-13-06, 03:32 PM This is what I keep pointing out. You can't say the Masterwork Bonus gets removed by the Defending property and not get applied to AC.

That is why I have never said that.

If you are saying it's an Enhancement bonus that gets taken away in the "all" category then it would also have to add to the AC bonus, which is ridiculous. You can't have it both ways, either it is counted as an Enhancement bonus for the Defending property and you would have the option of allocating it to your AC. Or it's not applicable for Defending and ignored for the ability.

When you decide to allocate all enhancement bonus to your AC then you are also allocating the enhancement from masterwork to AC, but this has no effect since it overlaps with the bonus allocated from the magical enhancement.
As I said earlier the Defending ability does not discriminate between the sources of the enhancement so when you decide to allocate your "last" +1 enhancement to AC your are transferring BOTH the +1 enhancement from masterwork and the +1 from magic.

I will once again refer to the fact that the Defending property is referring to this....

Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat. All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons, but their masterwork bonus on attack rolls does not stack with their enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
.... Enhancement Bonuses, according to the Magical Weapons section, apply to both Attack and Damage. The masterwork Quality only adds to Attack rolls. I still say that the Masterwork Quality is ignored in this case all together. But even in your explanation of the Masterwork bonus getting taken away, if you count the Masterwork bonus as an Enhancement bonus you can still...

Defending: A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.

... Opt to take some of their "Enhancement bonus" and not remove the Masterwork Bonus.

No, as I said above when you remove the last +1 enhancement both goes. The bonus from masterwork is also an enhancement bonus and the defending ability does not discriminate between sources of enhancement, it talks about THE enhancement bonus.

MASTERWORK WEAPONS
A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.

...

All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the masterwork quality doesn’t stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon’s magic.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elussan of the Bow 02-10-06, 09:00 AM	I know that defending weapons bestow some or all of their enhancement bonuses to a character's armor class, but in the case of bestowing all of the enhancement bonus, would the character still get a +1 to attack from the weapon being a masterwork item? Food for thought/debate.
kjenks 02-10-06, 10:15 AM	The strange wording of the Defending ability interacts with the way enhancement bonuses overlap in an odd way. The +1 enhancement bonus from being masterwork overlaps with (does not stack with) the +2 magical enhancement bonus on that +2 Defending longsword. According to the Defending ability description, you can transfer "some" of your enhancement bonus to AC, like if you have a +2 Defending longsword and you transfer +1 to AC. Or you can transfer "all" of your enhancement bonus to AC, like if you have a +2 Defending longsword and you transfer +2 to AC. The enhancement bonus from being masterwork is clearly an enhancement bonus, so if you've transferred "all" of it to AC, how much do you have left for attack? None. Some means some, all means all. In this example, you can't transfer +2 to AC and call it "some" of the bonus -- that would be "all" of the bonus. See how it works? In summary, no, you can't retain your +1 enhancement bonus on attacks after you transfer all of your all of your bonus to AC. Why? Because all of the enhancement bonuses have been transfered to AC.
Elussan of the Bow 02-10-06, 10:21 AM	Fair enough, and sensical. Thanks!
Soulburn84 02-10-06, 12:13 PM	I beg to differ. The Defending ability is refering to the Magical Enhancment bonus, the Masterwork quality is mundane. Mundane abilities stay even if magical abilities are removed.
kjenks 02-10-06, 12:22 PM	I beg to differ. The Defending ability is refering to the Magical Enhancment bonus, the Masterwork quality is mundane. Mundane abilities stay even if magical abilities are removed. Differ if you like, but the Defending ability description does not make a distinction between magical and nonmagical enhancement bonuses. All means all. Defending: A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn. Moderate abjuration; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shield or shield of faith; Price +1 bonus.
Kapalen 02-10-06, 12:31 PM	Differ if you like, but the Defending ability description does not make a distinction between magical and nonmagical enhancement bonuses. All means all. But it's also stated that you need a +1 bonus before you can bestow any magical abilities on a weapon, yet, the +1 to hit from a masterwork item doesn't count, they made the distinction right there.
Soulburn84 02-10-06, 12:41 PM	Differ if you like, but the Defending ability description does not make a distinction between magical and nonmagical enhancement bonuses. All means all. So what you are saying is, if I have a +2 Defending Dagger I can remove all enhancement bonuses (which you are saying Masterwork is one) and gain +3 to my AC? Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat. All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons, but their masterwork bonus on attack rolls does not stack with their enhancement bonus on attack rolls. It seems to me that enhancement bonuses definitely refer to the magical property, as they apply to both attack and damage, where as masterwork (which you see they call it a masterwork bonus, not an enhancement bonus) is only to attacks.
kjenks 02-10-06, 02:13 PM	So what you are saying is, if I have a +2 Defending Dagger I can remove all enhancement bonuses (which you are saying Masterwork is one) and gain +3 to my AC? Was that what I said? No, read it again. The enhancement bonuses overlap; they don't stack. They call it an enhancement bonus in the PH, where masterwork weapons are defined. SRD === MASTERWORK WEAPONS A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls. You can’t add the masterwork quality to a weapon after it is created; it must be crafted as a masterwork weapon (see the Craft skill). The masterwork quality adds 300 gp to the cost of a normal weapon (or 6 gp to the cost of a single unit of ammunition). Adding the masterwork quality to a double weapon costs twice the normal increase (+600 gp). Masterwork ammunition is damaged (effectively destroyed) when used. The enhancement bonus of masterwork ammunition does not stack with any enhancement bonus of the projectile weapon firing it. All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the masterwork quality doesn’t stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon’s magic. ===
Soulburn84 02-10-06, 02:34 PM	Differ if you like, but the Defending ability description does not make a distinction between magical and nonmagical enhancement bonuses. All means all.Defending: A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn. Moderate abjuration; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shield or shield of faith; Price +1 bonus. According to this that is what you said. They do not stack, that is correct. Hence with my dagger (+2 Defending) if I take two off of it and add it to my AC I'm still left with a Masterwork dagger, granting a +1 Enhancment bonus to attack rolls. Same with other things that overlap but do not stack. If I have two castings of Mage Armor on, and one gets dispelled the second one kicks in and I still have a Mage Armor effect going.
kjenks 02-10-06, 03:18 PM	So are you saying that "all" means most? It's all in the wording, Soulburn84. +2 Defending longsword +2 attack/damage, +0 AC = no EB transfered to AC +1 attack/damage, +1 AC = some EB transfered to AC +0 attack/damage, +2 AC = all EB transfered to AC Choose one.
Soulburn84 02-10-06, 03:34 PM	So are you saying that "all" means most? It's all in the wording, Soulburn84. +2 Defending longsword +2 attack/damage, +0 AC = no EB transfered to AC +1 attack/damage, +1 AC = some EB transfered to AC +0 attack/damage, +2 AC = all EB transfered to AC Choose one. Yes but according to you ... In summary, no, you can't retain your +1 enhancement bonus on attacks after you transfer all of your all of your bonus to AC. Why? Because all of the enhancement bonuses have been transfered to AC. Not all enhancement bonuses have been transfered. You are the one saying that the masterwork bonus counts as an enhancement bonus, yet you disagree that if you remove all enhancement bonuses you wouldn't add in the masterwork bonus going to AC. I'm saying that the masterwork bonus does not count in the configuration at all, you can't subtract it for the bonus, so therefore you don't lose it. The SRD clearly says that the masterwork enhancement bonus differs from the magical one here ... Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat. All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons, but their masterwork bonus on attack rolls does not stack with their enhancement bonus on attack rolls. So once you remove all of the enhancement bonuses (the +2) you are still left with a non-magical enhancement bonus of +1 to attack rolls. And note that it says the Masterwork bonus doesn't stack on attack rolls only.
Lord Lorac Silvanos 02-10-06, 04:54 PM	Soulburn may I suggest that you look at it from another angle. While you of course are correct should the magical enhancement bonuses somehow be removed you would be left with a masterwork weapon that provided a +1 enhancement bonus on attack, this is not really what is going on with the defending enchantment. ...As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn. So take the +2 Defending longsword from before. At the start of the turn these +2 are allocated between AC and attack/damage. You do not remove anything from the sword. Hope you can see the distinction.
Soulburn84 02-10-06, 08:30 PM	Soulburn may I suggest that you look at it from another angle. While you of course are correct should the magical enhancement bonuses somehow be removed you would be left with a masterwork weapon that provided a +1 enhancement bonus on attack, this is not really what is going on with the defending enchantment. So take the +2 Defending longsword from before. At the start of the turn these +2 are allocated between AC and attack/damage. You do not remove anything from the sword. Hope you can see the distinction. It's not a matter of being removed, it's a matter of the magical enhancement bonus is no longer greater than the masterwork enhancement bonus. Take this example: A level 5 fighter with 16 strength and our example +2 Defending Longsword. She has +5 Base Attack Bonus, +3 Strength Bonus, +2 Magical Enhancement Bonus, and a +1 Masterwork Bonus, for a total of +10 to Hit. The Masterwork Bonus is ignored because the Magical Bonus is the same type, and greater. So say our Fighter takes the +2 Magical Enhancement bonus and adds it to her AC, she now has; +5 Base Attack Bonus, +3 Strength Bonus, +0 Magical Enhancement Bonus, and a +1 Masterwork Enhancement Bonus, so her to Hit is now +9. Once again the Bonuses do not stack, but now the Masterwork Enhancement is greater than the Magical Enhancement Bonus.
Lord Lorac Silvanos 02-10-06, 08:52 PM	The problem with your reasoning is that the Defending ability does not have the ability to remove the enhancement bonus, it is still overlapping the enhancement bonus from masterwork. Defending: A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn. For all other purposes, the enhancement bonus of the weapon is still +2 (assuming we still use the good ol' longsword) so the +1 to attack from the sword being masterwork is still overlapped by the magical +2. In other words, the magical enchantment +2 is still in effect, although it is now deployed in a different through the defending special ability, so the masterwork enhancement is not greater than the magical enhancement.
ninjeff 02-11-06, 12:22 AM	An enhancement bonus of +2 that is being applied as "+0 to attack, +0 to damage and +2 to AC" overlaps with an enhancement bonus of +1 that can only be applied as "+1 to attack, +0 to damage and +0 to AC" as follows: "+1 to attack, +0 to damage and +2 to AC".
AbsentMindedProfessor 02-11-06, 12:15 PM	Ok, let's add a little more fuek to the fire and ask this: If you make a sword of the planes a defender, then could it transfer even more than the base while on another plane?
Lord Lorac Silvanos 02-11-06, 01:20 PM	An enhancement bonus of +2 that is being applied as "+0 to attack, +0 to damage and +2 to AC" overlaps with an enhancement bonus of +1 that can only be applied as "+1 to attack, +0 to damage and +0 to AC" as follows: "+1 to attack, +0 to damage and +2 to AC". Yes, that is correct. However, as I read the Defending special ability it does not discriminate between the sources of the enhancement bonus it just tells you to allocate THE enhancement bonus as you see fit. You are not allocating only the magical enhancement but ALL enhancement. This, in my view, also prevents you from leaving the +1 from masterwork behind, when you allocate all the bonus to AC.
dragonseth 02-11-06, 07:04 PM	My personal take is this: If said fighter takes said sword and allocates the +2 enhancement bonus from att/dmg to AC, he retains the +1 enhancement bonus from MW. When two bonuses of the same name are affecting a stat, the higher one wins. HOWEVER, on attack rolls with the +2 allocated to AC, only the MW application of enhancement bonuses is affecting the attack roll, so I would say that it can't be overridden by a bonus not applied to the roll. The +2 bonus is no longer a bonus/penalty to the roll, so the MW can't stack/be overridden by it. To use a poor analogy, and probably a bad one as will be pointed out in the next few posts, it's like saying I have two Inherent bonuses, and only the higher one applies, but the bonuses are to two different things. I would see this as dividing it up into a +2 enhancement bonus to AC, and +1 enhancement bonus to attack coming from the weapon. Different rolls. Don't interact. Feel free to tear to pieces, just my :twocents:
Soulburn84 02-12-06, 03:41 PM	Yes, that is correct. However, as I read the Defending special ability it does not discriminate between the sources of the enhancement bonus it just tells you to allocate THE enhancement bonus as you see fit. You are not allocating only the magical enhancement but ALL enhancement. This, in my view, also prevents you from leaving the +1 from masterwork behind, when you allocate all the bonus to AC. This is what I keep pointing out. You can't say the Masterwork Bonus gets removed by the Defending property and not get applied to AC. If you are saying it's an Enhancement bonus that gets taken away in the "all" category then it would also have to add to the AC bonus, which is ridiculous. You can't have it both ways, either it is counted as an Enhancement bonus for the Defending property and you would have the option of allocating it to your AC. Or it's not applicable for Defending and ignored for the ability. I will once again refer to the fact that the Defending property is referring to this.... Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat. All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons, but their masterwork bonus on attack rolls does not stack with their enhancement bonus on attack rolls. .... Enhancement Bonuses, according to the Magical Weapons section, apply to both Attack and Damage. The masterwork Quality only adds to Attack rolls. I still say that the Masterwork Quality is ignored in this case all together. But even in your explanation of the Masterwork bonus getting taken away, if you count the Masterwork bonus as an Enhancement bonus you can still... Defending: A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn. ... Opt to take some of their "Enhancement bonus" and not remove the Masterwork Bonus.
yuenglingdragon 02-12-06, 05:18 PM	The problem with your reasoning is that the Defending ability does not have the ability to remove the enhancement bonus, it is still overlapping the enhancement bonus from masterwork. For all other purposes, the enhancement bonus of the weapon is still +2 (assuming we still use the good ol' longsword) so the +1 to attack from the sword being masterwork is still overlapped by the magical +2. In other words, the magical enchantment +2 is still in effect, although it is now deployed in a different through the defending special ability, so the masterwork enhancement is not greater than the magical enhancement. I believe this is the correct interpretation. The weapon is still a +2 weapon with a +2 enhancement bonus. The bonus, however, is being put to a different use. It still retains the bonus to hp and hardness that comes with the enhancement bonus. You can't use the masterwork bonus.
Lord Lorac Silvanos 02-13-06, 03:32 PM	This is what I keep pointing out. You can't say the Masterwork Bonus gets removed by the Defending property and not get applied to AC. That is why I have never said that. If you are saying it's an Enhancement bonus that gets taken away in the "all" category then it would also have to add to the AC bonus, which is ridiculous. You can't have it both ways, either it is counted as an Enhancement bonus for the Defending property and you would have the option of allocating it to your AC. Or it's not applicable for Defending and ignored for the ability. When you decide to allocate all enhancement bonus to your AC then you are also allocating the enhancement from masterwork to AC, but this has no effect since it overlaps with the bonus allocated from the magical enhancement. As I said earlier the Defending ability does not discriminate between the sources of the enhancement so when you decide to allocate your "last" +1 enhancement to AC your are transferring BOTH the +1 enhancement from masterwork and the +1 from magic. I will once again refer to the fact that the Defending property is referring to this.... Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat. All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons, but their masterwork bonus on attack rolls does not stack with their enhancement bonus on attack rolls. .... Enhancement Bonuses, according to the Magical Weapons section, apply to both Attack and Damage. The masterwork Quality only adds to Attack rolls. I still say that the Masterwork Quality is ignored in this case all together. But even in your explanation of the Masterwork bonus getting taken away, if you count the Masterwork bonus as an Enhancement bonus you can still... Defending: A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn. ... Opt to take some of their "Enhancement bonus" and not remove the Masterwork Bonus. No, as I said above when you remove the last +1 enhancement both goes. The bonus from masterwork is also an enhancement bonus and the defending ability does not discriminate between sources of enhancement, it talks about THE enhancement bonus. MASTERWORK WEAPONS A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls. ... All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the masterwork quality doesn’t stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon’s magic.