Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KarasDjun 02-28-06, 02:42 PM	I've looked in the Player's Handbook, the glossary in the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the SRD. Nowhere is it stated exactly HOW one calculates a touch attack. I understand that a ray is a "ranged touch attack" in which only the defender's Dex, size, and deflection bonuses apply to AC: Ranged Touch Attack Base Attack Bonus + Dexterity modifier + Size modifier This makes sense, since you have to aim carefully to strike someone at a distance, but you just have to strike the target, not penetrate the armor. But now, if one needs to make a melee touch attack, logic would say that this is a normal melee attack: Melee Attack Base Attack Bonus + Strength modifier + Size modifier However, why would you require a Strength bonus? Is it easier for a strong character to touch a target? Would a low strength prevent a person from touching someone else? If nothing else, agility and sneakiness are required to lay a hand on someone, not brute strength. Touching an unarmed target should be easier, since anything they use to fend you off is a part of themselves (arm, leg, etc.). Is this just a game mechanic that no one gave much thought to? If this is not the case, why is there no definition of how one makes a touch attack (only what happens to the defender)? There should at least have been some clarification, such as, "A melee touch attack is a standard melee attack made against a target's touch AC." I have used Base Attack + Size modifier in the past (because the person doing the touch attack had no Strength modifier anyway). We typically avoid attack maneuvers that we don't understand or agree with.... Basically, why would a giant with a high strength be any better at touching someone than a halfling wizard with a strength penalty? KarasDjun
Tsuul 02-28-06, 02:46 PM	Deflection bonus to AC? A touch attack can be Weapon Finessed I think.
jaelis 02-28-06, 02:55 PM	Strength matters because it sets how quickly you can move your weapon. If you have weapon finesse and a light weapon or unarmed strike, then you can use your dexterity.
Harliquinn 02-28-06, 04:19 PM	An attack is also considered to be getting through "unrolled' parries, blocks, and dodges (Represented by AC in various forms). A stronger character would not be as affected by those things as a weaker character. For instance it would be easier for a strong fighter to touch someone when they can not be stopped by a parry of an arm for instance.
Harliquinn 02-28-06, 04:22 PM	Here is the Combat definition, which I believe is what you were looking for? Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
KarasDjun 02-28-06, 04:49 PM	Here is the Combat definition, which I believe is what you were looking for? Nope. Nowhere in that sentence does it say, "Touch attacks are made JUST LIKE NORMAL MELEE OR RANGED ATTACKS, except that the defender's AC is different." Therefore, that is not a definition of the attack, but a synopsis of what happens to an opponent's AC when one makes such an attack. What I need to know is: MELEE TOUCH ATTACK = Base Attack Bonus + Size modifier + ???? If you say that the ???? is Strength, then why was the melee touch attack (or ranged touch attack) not simply stated as being a normal attack roll, using the normal attack definitions of melee and ranged attacks? It says that nowhere. It cannot (and shouldn't) be assumed to be so. The ambiguity is confusing and thus open to debate. I don't like debates in the middle of my combats - so I would like a definition.... ;) KarasDjun
jaelis 02-28-06, 05:12 PM	From the glossary: touch attack: An attack in which the attacker must connect with an opponent but does not need to penetrate armor. Touch attacks may be either melee or ranged. The target's armor bonus, shield bonus, and natural armor bonus (including any enhancement bonuses to those values) do not apply to AC against a touch attack. It says a touch attack is an attack. It therefore follows the rules for normal attacks, except as noted. There is no reason to restate all the modifiers that might apply. I don't think there is anything clearer than this. If you still feel uncertain about it, you'll just have to make a DM ruling on it one way or the other.
kalstrand 02-28-06, 09:16 PM	A touch attack works just like a regular melee attack but is made against the enemies touch AC and a ranged touch attack works just like a regular ranged attack but made against the enemies touch AC.
Father Dale 03-01-06, 02:43 AM	A touch attack works just like a regular melee attack but is made against the enemies touch AC and a ranged touch attack works just like a regular ranged attack but made against the enemies touch AC. 100% correct. Note that some touch attacks would benefit from the use of a masterwork or magic weapon. For instance, the touch attack to initate a trip when using a masterwork guisarme for which you had the Weapon Focus (guisarme) feat would be your BAB + Str +2 (+1 for the masterwork weapon and +1 for Weapon Focus).
KarasDjun 03-01-06, 02:49 PM	A touch attack works just like a regular melee attack but is made against the enemies touch AC and a ranged touch attack works just like a regular ranged attack but made against the enemies touch AC. Thank you! That's what I needed. Now, if only it was stated that plainly in the Player's Handbook (I mean, they've only reprinted the damn thing about a dozen times already, and nowhere is this plainly stated....). KarasDjun