Deflection bonus' to AC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Deflection bonus' to AC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
reaper5081
09-11-07, 07:40 PM Do they stack? If not Why?
Kouk
09-11-07, 08:22 PM Do they stack? If not Why?

They don't stack with themselves, because those are the rules. Mostly issues of stacking or not stacking come down to balance reasons, including how easy they are to get.

Beginning of PHB:
Stacking

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.

See this link for more detail:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking
reaper5081
09-11-07, 08:26 PM The case I am talking about is a race (shade) comes with a +4 deflection bonus to AC. Why wouldn't this stack with the bonus from a magical device? Besides the obvious "that's what the rules say".
Kouk
09-11-07, 08:48 PM The case I am talking about is a race (shade) comes with a +4 deflection bonus to AC. Why wouldn't this stack with the bonus from a magical device? Besides the obvious "that's what the rules say".

So you want rationalization huh? This one might be tough...

We are talking about the Shade template from the FRCS book?

They get a +4 Deflection bonus to AC when in shadows only, because of their mystical connection to the shadows and the plane of shadows.

Deflection Bonus

A deflection bonus affects Armor Class and is granted by a spell or magic effect that makes attacks veer off harmlessly. Deflection bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC except other deflection bonuses. A deflection bonus applies against touch attacks.

By being in the shadows they gain a +4 deflection bonus, so whatever this power is, it makes attacks veer off before they hit. Maybe you could envision this as a swirling field of energy, or just a really really smooth shell that moves the attack ever-so-slightly off course.

You can think of having multiple Deflection bonuses active at once as different layers of "armor", or perhaps different "materials" or just stronger or weaker fields of energy. The strongest one goes on the outside. Maybe it migrates up to the surface like oil floats on water...?

If an attack is good enough to get through the more powerful Deflection effect, it is also powerful enough to penetrate the less powerful Deflection effects in place, and so you would only take the highest Deflection bonus rather than stacking them.

Really though, it is not much different than wondering why you can't get more shield bonus armor by wearing a Buckler underneath your Tower Shield, it is just a matter of the game mechanics. "Free" bonuses are still just bonuses, they are better than nothing, and "free", and your character is not "entitled" to them.

Chances are your character would not have any way (or the funds or necessity) to get a +4 Deflection bonus from an item or spell for quite a few levels anyway, so the Shade bonus is still useful.

If you can't stack two Rings of Protection, you shouldn't be able to stack a Ring of Protection with the shade deflection bonus either.
Nephlite
09-11-07, 08:53 PM Really though, it is not much different than wondering why you can't get more shield bonus armor by wearing a Buckler underneath your Tower Shield, it is just a matter of the game mechanics. "Free" bonuses are still just bonuses, they are better than nothing, and "free", and your character is not "entitled" to them.

Only free ones are: Dodge, plus they stack.
These are few in number:
LoreMaster gives +1 at all times.
Haste does for a duration.

I can't recall too many others.
Kouk
09-11-07, 08:59 PM Only free ones are: Dodge, plus they stack.
These are few in number:
LoreMaster gives +1 at all times.
Haste does for a duration.

I can't recall too many others.

I meant the deflection bonus is "free" because the Template just grants the ability, and he doesn't have to buy an item or take a feat.

Of course, any +LA and it isn't really "free" any more.
FrostHammer
09-11-07, 10:45 PM Does anyone know if Deflection bonus adds to your touch/flatfooted AC as well?
bondious
09-11-07, 11:00 PM Does anyone know if Deflection bonus adds to your touch/flatfooted AC as well?

Well, the answer to the first part of your question (about touch attacks) is in the quote above provided by Kouk; the answer is "yes". As for the other part, when you're flat-footed you only lose your Dex bonus to AC, if any.

PERSONALLY (and this is just my opinion here) I think a character who's carrying a shield and is flat-footed should lose their shield bonus as well, since they're not ready for the attack and thus aren't actively using the shield to block an incoming attack.
dman11235
09-11-07, 11:00 PM Adds to any and all ACs.
ShinAkuma2
09-12-07, 08:05 AM PERSONALLY (and this is just my opinion here) I think a character who's carrying a shield and is flat-footed should lose their shield bonus as well, since they're not ready for the attack and thus aren't actively using the shield to block an incoming attack.

The problem with that is that you still have a hunk of wood/steel between yourself and any incoming attack. There's still an area where you can't be struck.

At best, you could rationalize halving the shield bonus, but not losing it entirely.
mvincent
09-12-07, 12:49 PM PERSONALLY (and this is just my opinion here) I think a character who's carrying a shield and is flat-footed should lose their shield bonus as wellRealistically, that makes sense... since it is odd to retain your shield bonus when unconscious, paralyzed, held, asleep etc.

... but (since D&D combat rules are intended to be abstracted and simplied), them's the rules. As a result, there are often things that are even odder than this.
bondious
09-12-07, 02:57 PM As I said, it's a personal opinion, though I've not had the chance to use it in a game because others I've played with in the past don't agree (I think it's becaue they don't want their AC to suffer MORE when flat-footed), so we never played it that way. Even though I'm the DM, generally, I'd rather have a smooth and friendly game, so I try not to make radical rules changes/house rules without some kind of concensus.
Steevo
09-12-07, 05:48 PM The case I am talking about is a race (shade) comes with a +4 deflection bonus to AC. Why wouldn't this stack with the bonus from a magical device? Besides the obvious "that's what the rules say".

The whole idea behind bonuses not stacking is that if they both come from the same source, they're both doing the same job. As such, only the strongest such bonus has an appreciable difference.

Let's say your shade had a ring of protection +1. When he's in the shadows, his mystical shadow forcefield provides a +4 deflection. The ring is technically still deflecting attacks with a given magnitude of force, but the shadow effect is deflecting all the same attacks with a much stronger magnitude. As such, the ring's effect is not making a significant difference. Step out of the shadows, so that the +4 bonus goes away, and now the ring's deflection is making a difference again, because the stronger force is gone.

The same idea applies to other bonuses like Armor: You could put a suit of leather armor on underneath a suit of plate mail, but the leather would not be doing anything significant to protect you. Any force strong enough to pierce the plate mail would probably go right through the leather, too. Therefore only the stronger bonus applies.

Sure you could sit down and concoct specific examples of situations where the leather MIGHT help and then use this as justification for the bonuses to stack, but D&D mechanics do not take into account niggling details about how you get hit, it only concerns itself about whether you did get hit or not. The purpose of this is to keep things moving at a relatively fast pace.
FlikViktor
09-15-07, 04:27 PM http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040127a

Question answered, there is a whole section on this topic.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
reaper5081 09-11-07, 07:40 PM	Do they stack? If not Why?
Kouk 09-11-07, 08:22 PM	Do they stack? If not Why? They don't stack with themselves, because those are the rules. Mostly issues of stacking or not stacking come down to balance reasons, including how easy they are to get. Beginning of PHB: Stacking In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified. See this link for more detail: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking
reaper5081 09-11-07, 08:26 PM	The case I am talking about is a race (shade) comes with a +4 deflection bonus to AC. Why wouldn't this stack with the bonus from a magical device? Besides the obvious "that's what the rules say".
Kouk 09-11-07, 08:48 PM	The case I am talking about is a race (shade) comes with a +4 deflection bonus to AC. Why wouldn't this stack with the bonus from a magical device? Besides the obvious "that's what the rules say". So you want rationalization huh? This one might be tough... We are talking about the Shade template from the FRCS book? They get a +4 Deflection bonus to AC when in shadows only, because of their mystical connection to the shadows and the plane of shadows. Deflection Bonus A deflection bonus affects Armor Class and is granted by a spell or magic effect that makes attacks veer off harmlessly. Deflection bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC except other deflection bonuses. A deflection bonus applies against touch attacks. By being in the shadows they gain a +4 deflection bonus, so whatever this power is, it makes attacks veer off before they hit. Maybe you could envision this as a swirling field of energy, or just a really really smooth shell that moves the attack ever-so-slightly off course. You can think of having multiple Deflection bonuses active at once as different layers of "armor", or perhaps different "materials" or just stronger or weaker fields of energy. The strongest one goes on the outside. Maybe it migrates up to the surface like oil floats on water...? If an attack is good enough to get through the more powerful Deflection effect, it is also powerful enough to penetrate the less powerful Deflection effects in place, and so you would only take the highest Deflection bonus rather than stacking them. Really though, it is not much different than wondering why you can't get more shield bonus armor by wearing a Buckler underneath your Tower Shield, it is just a matter of the game mechanics. "Free" bonuses are still just bonuses, they are better than nothing, and "free", and your character is not "entitled" to them. Chances are your character would not have any way (or the funds or necessity) to get a +4 Deflection bonus from an item or spell for quite a few levels anyway, so the Shade bonus is still useful. If you can't stack two Rings of Protection, you shouldn't be able to stack a Ring of Protection with the shade deflection bonus either.
Nephlite 09-11-07, 08:53 PM	Really though, it is not much different than wondering why you can't get more shield bonus armor by wearing a Buckler underneath your Tower Shield, it is just a matter of the game mechanics. "Free" bonuses are still just bonuses, they are better than nothing, and "free", and your character is not "entitled" to them. Only free ones are: Dodge, plus they stack. These are few in number: LoreMaster gives +1 at all times. Haste does for a duration. I can't recall too many others.
Kouk 09-11-07, 08:59 PM	Only free ones are: Dodge, plus they stack. These are few in number: LoreMaster gives +1 at all times. Haste does for a duration. I can't recall too many others. I meant the deflection bonus is "free" because the Template just grants the ability, and he doesn't have to buy an item or take a feat. Of course, any +LA and it isn't really "free" any more.
FrostHammer 09-11-07, 10:45 PM	Does anyone know if Deflection bonus adds to your touch/flatfooted AC as well?
bondious 09-11-07, 11:00 PM	Does anyone know if Deflection bonus adds to your touch/flatfooted AC as well? Well, the answer to the first part of your question (about touch attacks) is in the quote above provided by Kouk; the answer is "yes". As for the other part, when you're flat-footed you only lose your Dex bonus to AC, if any. PERSONALLY (and this is just my opinion here) I think a character who's carrying a shield and is flat-footed should lose their shield bonus as well, since they're not ready for the attack and thus aren't actively using the shield to block an incoming attack.
dman11235 09-11-07, 11:00 PM	Adds to any and all ACs.
ShinAkuma2 09-12-07, 08:05 AM	PERSONALLY (and this is just my opinion here) I think a character who's carrying a shield and is flat-footed should lose their shield bonus as well, since they're not ready for the attack and thus aren't actively using the shield to block an incoming attack. The problem with that is that you still have a hunk of wood/steel between yourself and any incoming attack. There's still an area where you can't be struck. At best, you could rationalize halving the shield bonus, but not losing it entirely.
mvincent 09-12-07, 12:49 PM	PERSONALLY (and this is just my opinion here) I think a character who's carrying a shield and is flat-footed should lose their shield bonus as wellRealistically, that makes sense... since it is odd to retain your shield bonus when unconscious, paralyzed, held, asleep etc. ... but (since D&D combat rules are intended to be abstracted and simplied), them's the rules. As a result, there are often things that are even odder than this.
bondious 09-12-07, 02:57 PM	As I said, it's a personal opinion, though I've not had the chance to use it in a game because others I've played with in the past don't agree (I think it's becaue they don't want their AC to suffer MORE when flat-footed), so we never played it that way. Even though I'm the DM, generally, I'd rather have a smooth and friendly game, so I try not to make radical rules changes/house rules without some kind of concensus.
Steevo 09-12-07, 05:48 PM	The case I am talking about is a race (shade) comes with a +4 deflection bonus to AC. Why wouldn't this stack with the bonus from a magical device? Besides the obvious "that's what the rules say". The whole idea behind bonuses not stacking is that if they both come from the same source, they're both doing the same job. As such, only the strongest such bonus has an appreciable difference. Let's say your shade had a ring of protection +1. When he's in the shadows, his mystical shadow forcefield provides a +4 deflection. The ring is technically still deflecting attacks with a given magnitude of force, but the shadow effect is deflecting all the same attacks with a much stronger magnitude. As such, the ring's effect is not making a significant difference. Step out of the shadows, so that the +4 bonus goes away, and now the ring's deflection is making a difference again, because the stronger force is gone. The same idea applies to other bonuses like Armor: You could put a suit of leather armor on underneath a suit of plate mail, but the leather would not be doing anything significant to protect you. Any force strong enough to pierce the plate mail would probably go right through the leather, too. Therefore only the stronger bonus applies. Sure you could sit down and concoct specific examples of situations where the leather MIGHT help and then use this as justification for the bonuses to stack, but D&D mechanics do not take into account niggling details about how you get hit, it only concerns itself about whether you did get hit or not. The purpose of this is to keep things moving at a relatively fast pace.
FlikViktor 09-15-07, 04:27 PM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040127a Question answered, there is a whole section on this topic.