Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rickenbacker 03-02-05, 11:16 PM	I need someone to give me what the PHB didn't: 2 easy to understand & follow examples of those. "New, lower initiative count-something or other"... Help! Thanks!
Thorak 03-02-05, 11:36 PM	We have two Fighters, Bob and George. Bob and George roll initiative. Bob gets a 19, and George gets a 4. The round begins, and intiatives start ticking down. When it reaches 19, Bob's turn comes up. Bob doesn't know what George is going to do, so he Delays his action until George goes. Bob's initiative is now 4, just like George's. When George's turn comes up, they both go simultaneously. And they both now go on a 4 initiative for the rest of the fight. Now, let's rewind time till just after the initiative roll. Bob again is worried about what George will do, but seeing that George is wielding a greatsword, he knows George is almost certainly going to Move in and attack in melee. So, when Bob's turn comes up on the 19, Bob gets a crafty idea. He Readies an action to Disarm George when George moves in and enters an adjacent square. Bob's turn over, George's turn comes up. Being a bit denser than Bob, he walks right into the trap, Moving in to attack. The moment he enters an adjacent square, Bob's Ready action interrupts what's going on, since it's been triggered. Bob attempts to Disarm George, and George can then finish his actions based on what happened; if Bob just Disarmed him, he'll probably draw another weapon, or run away. Or Grapple Bob. That doesn't matter to the Ready action, though. And, on the next turn, Bob again goes on a 19, while Bob has to wait for his 4. If Bob didn't get away, he could be highly screwed. There's also one funky thing about Delay, that is absolutely horribly explained in the PHB. You can delay until next round. Essentially, if you really, really want to go first every round, when you rolled a 1 for initiative, you can Delay your action until next round, and then take it at any initiative count you want, like 280. You lose your action in the first round if you do this, though, because you're Delaying it until the second round, when it becomes the second round's action.
Rickenbacker 03-03-05, 12:44 AM	We have two Fighters, Bob and George. Bob and George roll initiative. Bob gets a 19, and George gets a 4. The round begins, and intiatives start ticking down. When it reaches 19, Bob's turn comes up. Bob doesn't know what George is going to do, so he Delays his action until George goes. Bob's initiative is now 4, just like George's. When George's turn comes up, they both go simultaneously. And they both now go on a 4 initiative for the rest of the fight. Got it! :) Now, let's rewind time till just after the initiative roll. Bob again is worried about what George will do, but seeing that George is wielding a greatsword, he knows George is almost certainly going to Move in and attack in melee. So, when Bob's turn comes up on the 19, Bob gets a crafty idea. He Readies an action to Disarm George when George moves in and enters an adjacent square. Bob's turn over, George's turn comes up. Being a bit denser than Bob, he walks right into the trap, Moving in to attack. The moment he enters an adjacent square, Bob's Ready action interrupts what's going on, since it's been triggered. Bob attempts to Disarm George, and George can then finish his actions based on what happened; if Bob just Disarmed him, he'll probably draw another weapon, or run away. Or Grapple Bob. That doesn't matter to the Ready action, though. Got it. And, on the next turn, Bob again goes on a 19, while Bob Wait..you mean *George*, right? has to wait for his 4. If Bob didn't get away, he could be highly screwed. You can delay until next round. Essentially, if you really, really want to go first every round, when you rolled a 1 for initiative, you can Delay your action until next round, and then take it at any initiative count you want, Bit lost there. Does this just mean you keep Delaying until you want to jump back in? Can you give an example of this scenario? Thanks!
Nom 03-03-05, 07:08 AM	Thorak, I think the very unusual has happened. From my understanding, that's not how delay and ready work. Firstly, note that 3.5 initiative is for almost all purposes a ring (rather than a line). Your initiative number just determines where the ring starts. Taking Thorak's Bob (init 19) and George (init 4). Without any delay or ready actions, the order will be: Bob (19) George (4) Bob (19) George (4) ... Say Bob decides to delay. Unlike ready, delay cannot interrupt another action; you just go later (see PH pg 160). So Bob can decide to go just before George (call it 4+), or just after George (4-), or in fact any other time before his next turn. But he cannot interrupt another character's action. Note that acting just before George is identical to acting at count 19. George is still flat-footed at this point, and is the only other combatant. If you delay all the way until your next turn (which for Bob is immediately after George, but at nominal count 19), then you forfeit the delayed turn and begin your following one. In contrast, ready allows you to interrupt, but you only get to take one standard, move or free action (unlike delay which gives you an entire turn). Note that since delay is a standard action, you can take a move action and free actions on your regular turn before you delay. To Thorak's example again, Bob readies his action, and it triggers on George's turn (init 4). Bob's ready action interrupts George's action as soon as the conditions are met, and is resolved immediately. Bob's initiative then is set to just before George's (ie 4+) (PH pg 160), and George continues his turn. On the following turn, Bob will act just before George (4+ vs 4). Like delay, if you ready and don't trigger the action before your next turn (eg 19 for Bob) then you lose the readied action and take your next turn as normal. For both delay and ready, your initiative point changes if and only if you take the delayed turn / readied action, and then it changes to the point at which the action occurred (and immediately before the person you interrupted in the case of ready). Bit lost there. Does this just mean you keep Delaying until you want to jump back in?Basically, yes. And you can do it indefinitely, by simply choosing to delay again when your regular turn comes up.
Thorak 03-03-05, 01:46 PM	Thorak, I think the very unusual has happened. From my understanding, that's not how delay and ready work. I don't believe so, but let's go through it. Firstly, note that 3.5 initiative is for almost all purposes a ring (rather than a line). Your initiative number just determines where the ring starts. Taking Thorak's Bob (init 19) and George (init 4). Without any delay or ready actions, the order will be: Bob (19) George (4) Bob (19) George (4) ... Say Bob decides to delay. Unlike ready, delay cannot interrupt another action; you just go later (see PH pg 160). So Bob can decide to go just before George (call it 4+), or just after George (4-), or in fact any other time before his next turn. But he cannot interrupt another character's action. Note that acting just before George is identical to acting at count 19. George is still flat-footed at this point, and is the only other combatant.[/quote] Uh huh. Never said otherwise. When I said they can go simultaneously, that's what I meant; Bob can set his initiative to a count of 4, and actions are resolved exactly like they would be if they both rolled a 4 for initiative. If you delay all the way until your next turn (which for Bob is immediately after George, but at nominal count 19), then you forfeit the delayed turn and begin your following one. Uh huh. This was where I was trying to re-word the PHB, because it says you delay your action, take your this round action next round, and then forfeit your normal action next round. Much more confusing. Considering the end effect is the same. In contrast, ready allows you to interrupt, but you only get to take one standard, move or free action (unlike delay which gives you an entire turn). Note that since delay is a standard action, you can take a move action and free actions on your regular turn before you delay. To Thorak's example again, Bob readies his action, and it triggers on George's turn (init 4). Bob's ready action interrupts George's action as soon as the conditions are met, and is resolved immediately. Bob's initiative then is set to just before George's (ie 4+) (PH pg 160), and George continues his turn. On the following turn, Bob will act just before George (4+ vs 4). Right, I boned on this. Your initiative count changes to when you act, like you say. Like delay, if you ready and don't trigger the action before your next turn (eg 19 for Bob) then you lose the readied action and take your next turn as normal. For both delay and ready, your initiative point changes if and only if you take the delayed turn / readied action, and then it changes to the point at which the action occurred (and immediately before the person you interrupted in the case of ready). Right. Basically, yes. And you can do it indefinitely, by simply choosing to delay again when your regular turn comes up. Yep. And, to provide an example like the ones I did before; George doesn't want to keep going after Bob. So, George Delays after Bob's action, and waits till the start of the next round, and is able to set his action at any initiative count he likes, whether that be 20, to just beat Bob, or 6,280, to beat pretty much anything possible. And George's initiative is now that number for the rest of the fight, while Bob's is still 19.
Aracor 03-03-05, 02:12 PM	There's only one problem left. As I understand it, both delay AND ready will actually reset your initiative. So after delaying, Bob's initiative is at either 4+ or 4- depending on whether he decided to go before or after George. Note that the core rules don't allow for simultaneous actions under any circumstances. ~Aracor
Rickenbacker 03-03-05, 05:19 PM	Oh my..... I really am the layman when it comes to the more involved rules here. So I need it in very layman's terms. Ok- uhh...Let's see if I got all that. I'll combine Ready & Delay: Bob 19 George 4 George confronts Bob & Bob decides to Delay to see what George manages to do. George doesn't manage a thing. End of Round One(?) Bob decides now to act & (now at +4?) attempts to whack George w/ a longsword. Meanwhile, George has passed a note to the DM telling him that he'll Ready to Sunder IF Bob tries to hit him w/ that sword. Bob moves in, George interrupts & attempts to Sunder. Whew! How's that?
Aracor 03-03-05, 05:44 PM	Since Bob delayed, he doesn't need to delay to a specific point. He can just delay, and step in anywhere else. So if George moves up, Bob can wait until George takes his one attack, and then Bob can full-attack. If George just stands there, Bob can act however he wants. Yes, Bob can ready an action to sunder, but he has to declare that readied action before George does something, he can't just choose to ready after he sees George is about to whack him. Basically, the only fundamental difference between ready and delay is that ready has a specific trigger, but it is resolved before the action that causes it. For instance, the sunder example, if Bob manages to sunder George's sword with his readied action, then George at that point can only attack unarmed, or draw another weapon if he has quickdraw, but he doesn't get any attacks with his now shattered longsword. But if George draws a bow and shoots at Bob at range, Bob can't attempt to sunder, and he has to wait until his normal initiative because his readied trigger didn't happen. If Bob just delays, then George charges and whacks at him with his longsword, there's nothing that Bob can do to prevent that whack. After George swings, Bob can do whatever he likes, whether it's take a full attack, disarm, sunder, withdraw, whatever. But he now acts after George from then on, unless he readies an action later to speed himself up. Although since initiative is pretty much a circle, it doesn't matter much who's going "first" except for the first round of combat when you're flat-footed until you've acted. ~Aracor
Nom 03-03-05, 06:10 PM	Uh huh. Never said otherwise. When I said they can go simultaneously, that's what I meant; Bob can set his initiative to a count of 4, and actions are resolved exactly like they would be if they both rolled a 4 for initiative.OK. By simultaneously I thought you meant "simultaneously", rather than just "at the same initiative count number". And it's not quite the same as if they both rolled a 4. The tiebreaker rules are not used. Instead, Bob acts immediately before (in the case of ready), or before or after in the case of delay. Once he's chosen before or after, he's stuck with that choice unless he delays again. In a multi-character battle things could get interesting. George triggers a readied action from Bob, so Bob is now immediately before George. Then George triggers one from Fred, so Fred is now immediately before George, and thus after Bob. On the following round, Tim delays and decides to take his turn after Bob but before Fred. So now the order is Bob, Fred, Tim, George, until someone delays or readies again. This is why I typically throw out the initiative numbers once combat has started, and just track the ring.
Rickenbacker 03-04-05, 06:49 AM	Since Bob delayed, he doesn't need to delay to a specific point. He can just delay, and step in anywhere else. So if George moves up, Bob can wait until George takes his one attack, and then Bob can full-attack. If George just stands there, Bob can act however he wants. Yes, Bob Whoa, whoa- it was *George* who's gonna try to Sunder in my ex. That threw me off when I read your reply. -can ready an action to sunder, but he has to declare that readied action before George (Bob) does something, he can't just choose to ready after he sees George (Bob) is about to whack him. Ok. Got that. Basically, the only fundamental difference between ready and delay is that ready has a specific trigger, but it is resolved before the action that causes it. For instance, the sunder example, if Bob (George) manages to sunder George's (Bob's)- sword with his readied action, then George (Bob)- at that point can only attack unarmed,.. On that very same turn or the next round? If Bob just delays, then George charges and whacks at him with his longsword, there's nothing that Bob can do to prevent that whack. After George swings, Bob can do whatever he likes, whether it's take a full attack, disarm, sunder, withdraw, whatever. But he now acts after George from then on, Wouldn't that be the case anyway, being that there're only 2 of them fighting? I'm just trying to be as clear about this as poss'. Still working it all out...
Ploppy 03-04-05, 07:55 AM	First of all Hi to everybody....First posting :cool: . George doesn't want to keep going after Bob. So, George Delays after Bob's action, and waits till the start of the next round, and is able to set his action at any initiative count he likes, whether that be 20, to just beat Bob, or 6,280, to beat pretty much anything possible. And George's initiative is now that number for the rest of the fight, while Bob's is still 19. Wait a minute - doesnīt this make Improved init a rather useless feat? OK - first hit - but thats all...(although it might make the day - but thats not very probable in most situations...) How about spellcasters, delaying till next round? Example: Caster is second - gets a lot of hits, but is still standing. Casting a spell would take a ridiculous concentration check... Can he delay his spell till next round? He would be first and fries his opponent without the "damage-disadvatage"? :confused: We had this situation and didnīt know how to handle it properly....then we just said that you canīt delay "before" 20+Init-Factor....so a Char. with improved init has a good chance of still beeing first. Bye....
Nom 03-04-05, 05:42 PM	Summary: Delay: take your turn any time later, but cannot interrupt someone who has already started their turn. Ready: take part of your turn (one free, move or standard action) later, based on specific trigger. Interrupts whoever triggered the event. Interrupted character then continues their turn as normal (modulo any changes caused by ready). Initiating a Ready is a standard action, even if the action readied is a move or free action. In both cases, your initiative changes to the time at which you completed your turn, just before the character you interrupted in the case of ready. As to sunder: If Bob uses a readied action to sunder George's sword, then George from that exact point in time has no sword. For example, Bob moves and then readies (standard action) "sunder the weapon of the first enemy who moves into range". Sunder is a standard action, so it can be readied. George moves into range, triggering the condition. Bob takes his readied sunder action, and is successful. George now has no sword. George has a standard action remaining (he's already moved), so he uses Quick-draw to grab his backup hand-axe and attacks Bob with that. One round later, Bob has his next turn, immediately before George. Wait a minute - doesnīt this make Improved init a rather useless feat? OK - first hit - but thats all...(although it might make the day - but thats not very probable in most situations...)Improved initiative is great in situations where acting first, while the opponents are still flat footed and haven't started firing spells, is a big advantage. Obviously, it's not for everyone. How about spellcasters, delaying till next round? Example: Caster is second - gets a lot of hits, but is still standing. Casting a spell would take a ridiculous concentration check... Can he delay his spell till next round? He would be first and fries his opponent without the "damage-disadvatage"?(1) Forget the concept of 'next round' in 3.5. Everything makes a lot more sense if you think of it as a ring. (2) I think you have completely missed how concentration checks work. You only need to make a concentration check if something damages you while you are concentrating. For spell whose casting time is 1 standard action or 1 full round action, this only applies if you are hit by an AoO, a readied attack, or continuous damage. For spells with 1 round or greater casting time, you need to make a concentration check if you are damaged at any time from when you start casting to the start of your next turn. At no point does damage taken previous to when you start casting directly cause a concentration check.