Desert Wind to another Element [Archive] - Wizards Community

Desert Wind to another Element [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
fatal error
12-27-06, 08:30 PM Out of all nine disciplines only Desert Wind really focuses on elemental damage. With this in mind, it should naturally be the easiest discipline to modify to create an elemental focused initiator who happens to not be focusing on fire.

However, the fact is that fire is the most common elemental damage type, and the most commonly resisted. But is it really so much more so than cold or electricity?

So I ask, do you think it would be balanced to simply change all the discipline's fire damage to cold or electricity damage, without changing any of the number?

Furthermore, would it be balanced to change all of it to sonic (or acid? I'm not sure if acid should go with cold, electricity and fire, or with sonic) and reduce all dice by one size (similarly reducing set amounts of damage by, say, 1/4th)?
Crimson_Concerto
12-27-06, 08:39 PM There was a similar discussion on the Classes board, and it seemed like everybody agreed that the Tundra Wind (cold) and Storm Wind (electric) variants were balanced just fine. Acid damage is difficult to justify and reflavor, as it's actual matter as opposed to energy, unlike the other three energy types, but if you can figure out a way to do it, it should be just as balanced. I would personally discourage sonic damage, just as I would positive or negative energy.
DarkRhystar
12-27-06, 08:45 PM However, the fact is that fire is the most common elemental damage type, and the most commonly resisted. But is it really so much more so than cold or electricity?

It is when it comes to magic. Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, Fireball, Flame Arrow, and Flame Strike all come to mind as iconic fire spells that you see in play far far more often than their counterparts (though electricity comes up second).

Otherwise it's pretty even.

So I ask, do you think it would be balanced to simply change all the discipline's fire damage to cold or electricity damage, without changing any of the number?

I do not think it would be unbalanced. Just keep in mind that your Arctic Gust discipline or whatever you choose to call it should be a completely separate discipline from Desert Wind.

Furthermore, would it be balanced to change all of it to sonic (or acid? I'm not sure if acid should go with cold, electricity and fire, or with sonic) and reduce all dice by one size (similarly reducing set amounts of damage by, say, 1/4th)?

I think that would be more of a haphazard to deal with but it could be done. Chopping damage across the board may or may not lead to a balanced discipline especially from the point of view of those who look at Desert Wind as being slightly weaker than others in many aspects.
Chimaera2000
12-27-06, 08:55 PM Cold and electricity might be slightly more powerful than fire, as fire is the most commonly resisted element around. However, it won't result in the discipline being overpowered; Desert Wind is regarded by several on the boards as being the weakest discipline overall. The power difference should be fairly small in any case.

Acid and sonic should be balanced with a reduction in damage to d4's. Sonic damage is indeed balanced that way in spells from the Spell Compendium. Acid is less easily resisted than other elements and so a d4 in damage should be highly balanced. Indeed, it might even be a touch on the side of underpowered, since maneuvers don't have spell resistance. This negates one of the primary advantages of acid damage. Of course, having acid do d6 would probably be overpowered compared to fire, cold, and electricity, and so a d4 should suffice.
Tyler Do'Urden
12-28-06, 05:55 AM There was a similar discussion on the Classes board, and it seemed like everybody agreed that the Tundra Wind (cold) and Storm Wind (electric) variants were balanced just fine.Would you treat them as separate disciplines this way (Desert Wind doesn't qualify for Tundra Wind and vice versa)?
DarkRhystar
12-28-06, 01:47 PM Would you treat them as separate disciplines this way (Desert Wind doesn't qualify for Tundra Wind and vice versa)?

Why would you logically?

You can't use any disciplines in ToB to qualify for each other.

Why would being skilled with element A make you skilled with element B?

Joe the Swordsage has spent almost all his maneuvers perfecting the icy Tundra Wind discipline and suddenly gains the pinnacle Desert Wind maneuver out of nowhere?
fatal error
12-28-06, 02:16 PM Would you treat them as separate disciplines this way (Desert Wind doesn't qualify for Tundra Wind and vice versa)?

Correct, they would be entirely separate. Though I could see an argument balance-wise that the discipline might become more useful (if you believe it to be underpowered currently) if you could select a variety of damage types for your maneuvers. And I'm sure you could match flavor to such a mastery of elements, but the flavor I was thinking of was more mono-elemental.
Crimson_Concerto
12-28-06, 02:21 PM Would you treat them as separate disciplines this way (Desert Wind doesn't qualify for Tundra Wind and vice versa)?

Yes, we decided they were completely different disceplines, and I think that only makes sense. I mean, why do you get to use fire and electricity for 16 levels and then suddenly choose cold damage for your Inferno Blast? :confused:
Besides, getting to use all fo the elements in a single discepline might even make it too powerful, because of the dramatic increase in versatility.
Radijs
12-28-06, 02:24 PM In a related question: How (un)balanced would it be to introduce a feat that allows you to change the energy damage you do with your desert wind maneuvers to another energy type for a limited times per day? Say 3 times or an amount of times equal to your WIS or CON mod?
Keenath
12-28-06, 02:29 PM I don't think there's any mechanical/balance issues with Arctic Blast as a style, but I will mention that it doesn't quite fit the theme. I mean, even the non-fire-damage maneuvers in Desert Wind have that flame-imitative thing going; you have blinding light effects, sudden bursts of movement, and so on.

It works fine for an electrical style, but if I were going to design a cold-based sword style, I'd probably try to remove some of the more flame-based maneuvers, like Searing Charge, Blistering Flourish, Burning Brand, and Flashing Sun, and replace them with maneuvers from Shadow or Stone, with an eye towards ability drain, immobilization, and so on. In general, I'd make the style slower, but make it also slow and hamper your opponents.
Crimson_Concerto
12-28-06, 02:36 PM In a related question: How (un)balanced would it be to introduce a feat that allows you to change the energy damage you do with your desert wind maneuvers to another energy type for a limited times per day? Say 3 times or an amount of times equal to your WIS or CON mod?

Hrm... Well, if we pretend it's magic for a second, we're talking Energy Substitution. Now, normally metamagic has an increase in spell level, but Energy Substitution doesn't, though we might want to for martial maneuvers? Now, are we going to consider martial maneuvers to be prepared or spontanious? o_O
Because I'm leaning towards making them act like prepared for purposes of this. Like, when you ready maneuvers, you have to ready them already including this meta-maneuver if that's what you want. I would also say it can't be applied to any readied maneuver changes made during combat, such as by the Adaptive Style feat. Also, when recovering maneuvers as normal during combat, no changes can be made using this meta-maneuver.
Now, the remaining question is whether this allows you to ready the same maneuver more than once, so long as they are a different energy damage...

Well anyways, those are just my immediate thoughts. I don't think I would personally support this meta-maneuver.

In fact, I'm inclined to say that if one of my players wants to play a swordsage with one of these replacement energies, they can only pick one. In other words, you get to pick maneuvers from Desert Wind OR Tundra Wind OR Storm Wind, etc. A swordsage cannot have access to more than one of these disceplines. This is to prevent using the same maneuver with only slightly different effects.
Crimson_Concerto
12-28-06, 02:44 PM I don't think there's any mechanical/balance issues with Arctic Blast as a style, but I will mention that it doesn't quite fit the theme. I mean, even the non-fire-damage maneuvers in Desert Wind have that flame-imitative thing going; you have blinding light effects, sudden bursts of movement, and so on.

It works fine for an electrical style, but if I were going to design a cold-based sword style, I'd probably try to remove some of the more flame-based maneuvers, like Searing Charge, Blistering Flourish, Burning Brand, and Flashing Sun, and replace them with maneuvers from Shadow or Stone, with an eye towards ability drain, immobilization, and so on. In general, I'd make the style slower, but make it also slow and hamper your opponents.

Actually, it takes a bit of working with, but it can be done. The blinding light effect can be freflavored to be the refraction of light through ice formed on your sword or even a type of aurora. The sudden burts of movement do not need to be fire-related at all. Those may be wind related, and there are cold winds just as much as there are warm winds. Searing Charge looks fine to me (it could just as easily be a frigid wind and snow flakes lifting you as a hot wind and flames), as do Blistering Flourish (I spoke of this above), Burning Brand (the brand could just as easily be made of ice, snow, or an aurora-like effect), and Flashing Sun (all this is is an extra attack, and speed is supposed to be a constant theme in the discepline no matter what energy you happen to be using).
aelryinth
12-28-06, 03:15 PM Actually, if you want to go 'historical' flavor, remove the acid damage and insert poison damage. Poison using swordsmen were greatly feared for the power of their attacks and the debilitating effects. The ability to overcome poison was an iconic power for just about all of the Kung Fu comics I used to read!

The classic style of the Invincible Swordsman using poison was Thousand Poison style. He could expel poisons as an area attack, paralyze with strikes, was immune to poison, could heal himself with poison infusions (the deadlier the better). Someone who died to his poisons literally rotted off their bones...very acidic in theme, without all the rigamarole of acid. He also had quite the taste for all sorts of venomous creatures, of course...

===Aelryinth
Tyler Do'Urden
12-29-06, 12:12 AM Well, I was actually thinking about a feat or prestige class or whatever called Siberian Blade that lets you deal cold damage with Desert Wind maneuvers, 'cause there are cold deserts. I'm just not sure how much of an investment the option of two damage types is worth.
Tyler Do'Urden
12-30-06, 10:26 AM ...I'm thinking three level prestige class. HD, BAB, saves, maneuvers as swordsage (desert wind only, no stances). 1st level, you can deal cold damage with a desert wind maneuver once per day, 2nd level you can deal cold damage once per encounter, 3rd level, you can deal cold damage at will.

Maybe it won't grant any maneuvers, just initiator levels.

Yeah.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fatal error 12-27-06, 08:30 PM	Out of all nine disciplines only Desert Wind really focuses on elemental damage. With this in mind, it should naturally be the easiest discipline to modify to create an elemental focused initiator who happens to not be focusing on fire. However, the fact is that fire is the most common elemental damage type, and the most commonly resisted. But is it really so much more so than cold or electricity? So I ask, do you think it would be balanced to simply change all the discipline's fire damage to cold or electricity damage, without changing any of the number? Furthermore, would it be balanced to change all of it to sonic (or acid? I'm not sure if acid should go with cold, electricity and fire, or with sonic) and reduce all dice by one size (similarly reducing set amounts of damage by, say, 1/4th)?
Crimson_Concerto 12-27-06, 08:39 PM	There was a similar discussion on the Classes board, and it seemed like everybody agreed that the Tundra Wind (cold) and Storm Wind (electric) variants were balanced just fine. Acid damage is difficult to justify and reflavor, as it's actual matter as opposed to energy, unlike the other three energy types, but if you can figure out a way to do it, it should be just as balanced. I would personally discourage sonic damage, just as I would positive or negative energy.
DarkRhystar 12-27-06, 08:45 PM	However, the fact is that fire is the most common elemental damage type, and the most commonly resisted. But is it really so much more so than cold or electricity? It is when it comes to magic. Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, Fireball, Flame Arrow, and Flame Strike all come to mind as iconic fire spells that you see in play far far more often than their counterparts (though electricity comes up second). Otherwise it's pretty even. So I ask, do you think it would be balanced to simply change all the discipline's fire damage to cold or electricity damage, without changing any of the number? I do not think it would be unbalanced. Just keep in mind that your Arctic Gust discipline or whatever you choose to call it should be a completely separate discipline from Desert Wind. Furthermore, would it be balanced to change all of it to sonic (or acid? I'm not sure if acid should go with cold, electricity and fire, or with sonic) and reduce all dice by one size (similarly reducing set amounts of damage by, say, 1/4th)? I think that would be more of a haphazard to deal with but it could be done. Chopping damage across the board may or may not lead to a balanced discipline especially from the point of view of those who look at Desert Wind as being slightly weaker than others in many aspects.
Chimaera2000 12-27-06, 08:55 PM	Cold and electricity might be slightly more powerful than fire, as fire is the most commonly resisted element around. However, it won't result in the discipline being overpowered; Desert Wind is regarded by several on the boards as being the weakest discipline overall. The power difference should be fairly small in any case. Acid and sonic should be balanced with a reduction in damage to d4's. Sonic damage is indeed balanced that way in spells from the Spell Compendium. Acid is less easily resisted than other elements and so a d4 in damage should be highly balanced. Indeed, it might even be a touch on the side of underpowered, since maneuvers don't have spell resistance. This negates one of the primary advantages of acid damage. Of course, having acid do d6 would probably be overpowered compared to fire, cold, and electricity, and so a d4 should suffice.
Tyler Do'Urden 12-28-06, 05:55 AM	There was a similar discussion on the Classes board, and it seemed like everybody agreed that the Tundra Wind (cold) and Storm Wind (electric) variants were balanced just fine.Would you treat them as separate disciplines this way (Desert Wind doesn't qualify for Tundra Wind and vice versa)?
DarkRhystar 12-28-06, 01:47 PM	Would you treat them as separate disciplines this way (Desert Wind doesn't qualify for Tundra Wind and vice versa)? Why would you logically? You can't use any disciplines in ToB to qualify for each other. Why would being skilled with element A make you skilled with element B? Joe the Swordsage has spent almost all his maneuvers perfecting the icy Tundra Wind discipline and suddenly gains the pinnacle Desert Wind maneuver out of nowhere?
fatal error 12-28-06, 02:16 PM	Would you treat them as separate disciplines this way (Desert Wind doesn't qualify for Tundra Wind and vice versa)? Correct, they would be entirely separate. Though I could see an argument balance-wise that the discipline might become more useful (if you believe it to be underpowered currently) if you could select a variety of damage types for your maneuvers. And I'm sure you could match flavor to such a mastery of elements, but the flavor I was thinking of was more mono-elemental.
Crimson_Concerto 12-28-06, 02:21 PM	Would you treat them as separate disciplines this way (Desert Wind doesn't qualify for Tundra Wind and vice versa)? Yes, we decided they were completely different disceplines, and I think that only makes sense. I mean, why do you get to use fire and electricity for 16 levels and then suddenly choose cold damage for your Inferno Blast? :confused: Besides, getting to use all fo the elements in a single discepline might even make it too powerful, because of the dramatic increase in versatility.
Radijs 12-28-06, 02:24 PM	In a related question: How (un)balanced would it be to introduce a feat that allows you to change the energy damage you do with your desert wind maneuvers to another energy type for a limited times per day? Say 3 times or an amount of times equal to your WIS or CON mod?
Keenath 12-28-06, 02:29 PM	I don't think there's any mechanical/balance issues with Arctic Blast as a style, but I will mention that it doesn't quite fit the theme. I mean, even the non-fire-damage maneuvers in Desert Wind have that flame-imitative thing going; you have blinding light effects, sudden bursts of movement, and so on. It works fine for an electrical style, but if I were going to design a cold-based sword style, I'd probably try to remove some of the more flame-based maneuvers, like Searing Charge, Blistering Flourish, Burning Brand, and Flashing Sun, and replace them with maneuvers from Shadow or Stone, with an eye towards ability drain, immobilization, and so on. In general, I'd make the style slower, but make it also slow and hamper your opponents.
Crimson_Concerto 12-28-06, 02:36 PM	In a related question: How (un)balanced would it be to introduce a feat that allows you to change the energy damage you do with your desert wind maneuvers to another energy type for a limited times per day? Say 3 times or an amount of times equal to your WIS or CON mod? Hrm... Well, if we pretend it's magic for a second, we're talking Energy Substitution. Now, normally metamagic has an increase in spell level, but Energy Substitution doesn't, though we might want to for martial maneuvers? Now, are we going to consider martial maneuvers to be prepared or spontanious? o_O Because I'm leaning towards making them act like prepared for purposes of this. Like, when you ready maneuvers, you have to ready them already including this meta-maneuver if that's what you want. I would also say it can't be applied to any readied maneuver changes made during combat, such as by the Adaptive Style feat. Also, when recovering maneuvers as normal during combat, no changes can be made using this meta-maneuver. Now, the remaining question is whether this allows you to ready the same maneuver more than once, so long as they are a different energy damage... Well anyways, those are just my immediate thoughts. I don't think I would personally support this meta-maneuver. In fact, I'm inclined to say that if one of my players wants to play a swordsage with one of these replacement energies, they can only pick one. In other words, you get to pick maneuvers from Desert Wind OR Tundra Wind OR Storm Wind, etc. A swordsage cannot have access to more than one of these disceplines. This is to prevent using the same maneuver with only slightly different effects.
Crimson_Concerto 12-28-06, 02:44 PM	I don't think there's any mechanical/balance issues with Arctic Blast as a style, but I will mention that it doesn't quite fit the theme. I mean, even the non-fire-damage maneuvers in Desert Wind have that flame-imitative thing going; you have blinding light effects, sudden bursts of movement, and so on. It works fine for an electrical style, but if I were going to design a cold-based sword style, I'd probably try to remove some of the more flame-based maneuvers, like Searing Charge, Blistering Flourish, Burning Brand, and Flashing Sun, and replace them with maneuvers from Shadow or Stone, with an eye towards ability drain, immobilization, and so on. In general, I'd make the style slower, but make it also slow and hamper your opponents. Actually, it takes a bit of working with, but it can be done. The blinding light effect can be freflavored to be the refraction of light through ice formed on your sword or even a type of aurora. The sudden burts of movement do not need to be fire-related at all. Those may be wind related, and there are cold winds just as much as there are warm winds. Searing Charge looks fine to me (it could just as easily be a frigid wind and snow flakes lifting you as a hot wind and flames), as do Blistering Flourish (I spoke of this above), Burning Brand (the brand could just as easily be made of ice, snow, or an aurora-like effect), and Flashing Sun (all this is is an extra attack, and speed is supposed to be a constant theme in the discepline no matter what energy you happen to be using).
aelryinth 12-28-06, 03:15 PM	Actually, if you want to go 'historical' flavor, remove the acid damage and insert poison damage. Poison using swordsmen were greatly feared for the power of their attacks and the debilitating effects. The ability to overcome poison was an iconic power for just about all of the Kung Fu comics I used to read! The classic style of the Invincible Swordsman using poison was Thousand Poison style. He could expel poisons as an area attack, paralyze with strikes, was immune to poison, could heal himself with poison infusions (the deadlier the better). Someone who died to his poisons literally rotted off their bones...very acidic in theme, without all the rigamarole of acid. He also had quite the taste for all sorts of venomous creatures, of course... ===Aelryinth
Tyler Do'Urden 12-29-06, 12:12 AM	Well, I was actually thinking about a feat or prestige class or whatever called Siberian Blade that lets you deal cold damage with Desert Wind maneuvers, 'cause there are cold deserts. I'm just not sure how much of an investment the option of two damage types is worth.
Tyler Do'Urden 12-30-06, 10:26 AM	...I'm thinking three level prestige class. HD, BAB, saves, maneuvers as swordsage (desert wind only, no stances). 1st level, you can deal cold damage with a desert wind maneuver once per day, 2nd level you can deal cold damage once per encounter, 3rd level, you can deal cold damage at will. Maybe it won't grant any maneuvers, just initiator levels. Yeah.